Buchholz Traded to the Phillies

[Emp9]

So the other shoes finally drops... however slowly. It was always going to be a salary dump and a low level prospect, or a better prospect (or a half-way decent RP) and not as much of a salary dump... to me anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm fine with this.

[sk7326]

Clear dump for a 24 year old in Single A. A sack of potatoes has more value.

[georom4]

Clay was worthless is a trade - not shocked at all. The main thing is that he is gone and his lowering of the bar for talented players will be gone too.

[moonslav59]

I thought we could at least get a single A player with a little more promise than Tobias, who wasn't listed on the Phillies top 30 prospect list, but this trade does not surprise me at all.

 

It may hurt to lose veteran starting pitcher depth, but with the salary flexibility added, we can trade for a Peavy or Bedard type mid season, or we can sign a few vets to minor league deals and cross our fingers.

 

I can see why not many of us have much hope in Owens or Johnson, but there's still a chance one can be helpful, or we could try Elias or Kelly as spot starters, if needed..

[sk7326]

I thought we could at least get a single A player with a little more promise than Tobias, who wasn't listed on the Phillies top 30 prospect list, but this trade does not surprise me at all.

 

It may hurt to lose veteran starting pitcher depth, but with the salary flexibility added, we can trade for a Peavy or Bedard type mid season, or we can sign a few vets to minor league deals and cross our fingers.

 

I can see why not many of us have much hope in Owens or Johnson, but there's still a chance one can be helpful, or we could try Elias or Kelly as spot starters, if needed..

 

There are a lot of options for #5 starter - so this is not an issue. But his ability to possibly swing between the bullpen and rotation could have helped. I'm not sad about his departure - but it does remove a little bit of flexibility for the pitching staff.

[notin]

This was a straight up salary dump. If Dombrowski wanted a legitimate prospect, he could have gotten more by paying part or all of Clay's salary.

 

If the goal was to get below the limit, it makes sense. But it does come at the cost of pitching depth and moves Owens and Johnson one rung further up the ladder. Hopefully some pitching with options better thsn those two can be acquired.

 

Doubtful the Sox chase Encarnacion, as they appear to be set on staying under. Maybe if Bautista is willing to accept a Nelson Cruz type deal (1yr $8mill) that might happen, but probably not. Although if a one year $1mill player option was added, he would only count as $4.5mill towards the Luxury Tax.

 

There are still a few out of options relievers fighting for maybe 2 spots in the bullpen - Hembree, Ross, Elias, and Abad. I would expect a deal or two here that can hopefully restore some pitching depth. ...

[gojohn99]

I think it's more of DD picking Pom over Clay. However we are very lefty heavy now, which I'm not sure I like.

[Spudboy]

As the Ramones would say "Glad To See You Go".

 

Really, as much as Buch drove me bananas through the years, I think the Sox just moved one of the strengths of the team. Rotation depth.

 

Yeah, they can go out and get someone at the deadline if needed, but at what cost? Another true prospect? Or will another team take someone like the kid that we just got?

 

Ah well, I like the cleared salary space. I'm with a700. Go get EE. It would not be smart and I doubt that it happens. But boy would it be in character for Dombrowski and his win now philosophy.

[oldtimer]

According to what I read the Phils are assuming all of Clay's salary.

 

That is what I heard. The Phillies may turn around and trade him later for better prospects. My understanding is that taking 13 Million off the books for 2017 parks us under the salary cap and resets it for the Sox. I doubt if we now go out and sign an expensive FA like EE.

[moonslav59]

This was a straight up salary dump. If Dombrowski wanted a legitimate prospect, he could have gotten more by paying part or all of Clay's salary.

 

If the goal was to get below the limit, it makes sense. But it does come at the cost of pitching depth and moves Owens and Johnson one rung further up the ladder. Hopefully some pitching with options better thsn those two can be acquired.

 

Doubtful the Sox chase Encarnacion, as they appear to be set on staying under. Maybe if Bautista is willing to accept a Nelson Cruz type deal (1yr $8mill) that might happen, but probably not. Although if a one year $1mill player option was added, he would only count as $4.5mill towards the Luxury Tax.

 

There are still a few out of options relievers fighting for maybe 2 spots in the bullpen - Hembree, Ross, Elias, and Abad. I would expect a deal or two here that can hopefully restore some pitching depth. ...

 

As it stood, we were looking at possibly losing all our out-of-options RP'ers by opening day, or at least when C Smith returns. This allows one more to stay, so I don't see a great loss in pen depth. I do see a bigger loss in Sp'er depth.

 

Here's how I see our pen shaping up as of now:

 

Closer: Kimbrel

RP2: Thornburg

RP3: (C Smith) Kelly

RP4: (Kelly) Pom or Wright

RP5: (Pom or Wright) Barnes

RP6: (Barnes) Ross

RP7: (Ross) Abad, Hembree, Elias (all out of options) or Scott

 

 

[Emp9]

Clay was worthless is a trade - not shocked at all. The main thing is that he is gone and his lowering of the bar for talented players will be gone too.

 

I find it very valuable to get under LT limit this season.

[moonslav59]

That is what I heard. The Phillies may turn around and trade him later for better prospects. My understanding is that taking 13 Million off the books for 2017 parks us under the salary cap and resets it for the Sox. I doubt if we now go out and sign an expensive FA like EE.

 

From what I heard, we were just barely under the luxury tax limit before the trade, but any in-season call ups could change the number as minor-league salaries would be given a raise to ML levels.

 

This trade gives is maybe $14-15M in flex space.

 

If we trade Abad, we'd add another estimated $2M. He's out of options anyways, and I like Hembree more. I'm not sure Elias is any better than Abad, but he can start.

 

That would put us at $16-17M in luxury tax limit space.

 

Remember, although we lose $12M next winter with Young and Moreland's deals, we have to factor in arb raises and Kimbrel's luxury tax number going from $10.5M to $13M and sale's going from $6.5M to $12M. These will more than eat up that $12M and any left over from our surplus from 2017.

 

Now, if we reset the luxury tax, like it looks like we will this year, then going over next year will not be as costly.

 

Next year's FA class is much better, I might add.

[GomesBeard]

I like the move. DD had no reason to keep Buch, he wasn't a DD 'guy' and he probably just said, 'Here is a guy who is inconsistent, injury-prone and doesn't battle when he doesn't have his A+ stuff - why exactly am I keeping him and his salary?'. Now we have 3 guys battling for 2 spots in the rotation - Wright, Pomeranz and Rodriguez. With Owens and Johnson in AAA for depth. Clay would probably fare better in the NL anyway, with zero expectations in Philly. But I do pity him for the fans there....

 

Dan D

[moonslav59]

I like the move. DD had no reason to keep Buch, he wasn't a DD 'guy' and he probably just said, 'Here is a guy who is inconsistent, injury-prone and doesn't battle when he doesn't have his A+ stuff - why exactly am I keeping him and his salary?'. Now we have 3 guys battling for 2 spots in the rotation - Wright, Pomeranz and Rodriguez. With Owens and Johnson in AAA for depth. Clay would probably fare better in the NL anyway, with zero expectations in Philly. But I do pity him for the fans there....

 

Dan D

Since we got basically nothing for him, holding onto Buch for longer might have netted us a better prospect, assuming he stayed healthy and pitched well. However, if he got hurt or struggled, we'd have missed out on any chance of getting someone to pay $13.5M.

 

It was a good trade, given Buch's inconsistency and injury history.

 

That $13.5 M will save us much more later, and allow us to get someone even better for a third of a season at a cheaper price, if needed.

[NativeBostonian]

Definitely a salary dump. There was no interest in Buch by other teams. It seems like we were shopping him pretty heavily, but every team wanted Pom instead. Pom is much cheaper. DD wanted to move $.

 

There is a lot more upside to Pomeranz then Buchholtz. Pomeranze is only going to cost 1.3 million this year. He is is younger. He is under control for longer and he made it to the All-Star game last season. Also, unless you're getting the equivalent of what you gave up to get him, you're not trading him.

Edited December 20, 2016 by NativeBostonian

[Slasher9]

Clay was worthless is a trade - not shocked at all. The main thing is that he is gone and his lowering of the bar for talented players will be gone too.

 

figured you would be popping champagne and going out for steak tonight....

[Spudboy]

Since we got basically nothing for him, holding onto Buch for longer might have netted us a better prospect, assuming he stayed healthy and pitched well. However, if he got hurt or struggled, we'd have missed out on any chance of getting someone to pay $13.5M.

 

It was a good trade, given Buch's inconsistency and injury history.

 

That $13.5 M will save us much more later, and allow us to get someone even better for a third of a season at a cheaper price, if needed.

 

I agree with everything you said here Moon. It was a good trade.

 

I just went to the store and turned on WEEI for the ride. The talking heads were lamenting that it was a bad trade because the Sox got nothing for Buch in return. They did not even mention the cap and dumping $13.5 mil..

 

What dumb f***s. Not like the informed and insightful bunch here at Talksox.

 

Sometimes we disagree and argue stuff but at least we "cover all the bases" ( had to use that! ) while discussing the issues.

 

I do worry a little about the quality and quantity of our rotation depth to start the season. But I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

I like the salary flexibility and reset aspect. Things will be okay.

[Slasher9]

we headed into last season giddy about our SP depth.

then suddenly we found ourselves with some dudes named sean osullivan and Roenis Elias toeing the rubber.........

[Eddy Ballgame]

I thought we could at least get a single A player with a little more promise than Tobias, who wasn't listed on the Phillies top 30 prospect list, but this trade does not surprise me at all.

 

It may hurt to lose veteran starting pitcher depth, but with the salary flexibility added, we can trade for a Peavy or Bedard type mid season, or we can sign a few vets to minor league deals and cross our fingers.

 

I can see why not many of us have much hope in Owens or Johnson, but there's still a chance one can be helpful, or we could try Elias or Kelly as spot starters, if needed..

 

They probably could've held out for a better prospect down the road, but it would be pretty risky. He was never going to go to the bullpen if he didn't make the rotation, so he wasn't "rotation depth" in the sense that you could put him in Pawtucket or make him the long man in the pen. He was going to be one of 5 starters or they would've moved him. Trading him now was the "safe" move.

[Northern Star]

That is surprising.

 

That is awesome. Best Christmas present ever.

[cp176]

That is awesome. Best Christmas present ever.

 

I'm going to miss him. Oh well, we still have is twin to kick around.

[harmony]

I give Dave Dombrowski kudos for this trade. I questioned whether any trade partner would take on the entire $13.5 million owed Clay Buchholz.

[notin]

Since we got basically nothing for him, holding onto Buch for longer might have netted us a better prospect, assuming he stayed healthy and pitched well. However, if he got hurt or struggled, we'd have missed out on any chance of getting someone to pay $13.5M.

 

It was a good trade, given Buch's inconsistency and injury history.

 

That $13.5 M will save us much more later, and allow us to get someone even better for a third of a season at a cheaper price, if needed.

 

If this was the logic behind the trade, why pick up the option at all? Not like Tobias made it worth the risk.

 

What made Buchholz expendable was the acquisition of Sale, whose availability was unknown 5 weeks ago. Still one had to think Clay had a little more value in a market headlined by a 37yo whose topped 100 IP once in the past 10 years and still got almost $50mill.

 

That said, this is one of those trades I don't like, but at least understand...

[GomesBeard]

I guess my only trepidation with this trade is the possibility that we'll be starting 4 left-handers in the rotation (Price, Sale, Pomerantz and E-Rod, assuming the last 2 beat out Wright). That would be somewhat unusual, no?

[Spudboy]

A 10th round pick:

 

 

Tobias, 24, has batted .301 (220-for-731) with a .362 on-base percentage in 188 minor league games since being selected by the Phillies in the 10th round of the 2015 June Draft. The switch-hitter earned South Atlantic League mid-season and postseason All-Star honors in 2016, batting .291 (143-for-491) with 31 doubles, three triples, nine home runs, 69 RBI, 70 runs, and 10 stolen bases between Single-A Lakewood (93 games) and High-A Clearwater (34 games). He batted .331 (39-for-118) against left-handed pitchers last season, as well as .279 (104-for-373) versus right-handers.

 

A native of Greensboro, NC, Tobias has made 164 starts at second base and five in left field in the minor leagues. He made his professional debut in 2015 with Short-A Williamsport, when he hit .321 (77-for-240) with an .837 OPS and was named a Short-Season All-Star by Baseball America. Tobias graduated in 2015 from the University of Florida, where he earned a bachelor's degree in geology. He was a two-time member of the Southeastern Conference Community Service Team and twice was named to the SEC Academic Honor Roll. He batted .301 in 213 career games with the Gators, including .355 in 2015.

[harmony]

I have no reason to believe the Red Sox took anything less than the best offer for Clay Buchholz. The Sox mostly likely have been shopping Buchholz around in the past year.

[Emp9]

There is a lot more upside to Pomeranz then Buchholtz. Pomeranze is only going to cost 1.3 million this year. He is is younger. He is under control for longer and he made it to the All-Star game last season. Also, unless you're getting the equivalent of what you gave up to get him, you're not trading him.

 

Naw, I think Pom is projected to cost us $4.7M this year. I cld be wrong though

[NativeBostonian]

Naw, I think Pom is projected to cost us $4.7M this year. I cld be wrong though

 

I don't know about incentives. But, according to the google, it's a 1.35 million base salary this year.

[Hugh2]

figured you would be popping champagne and going out for steak tonight....

 

Is it still too late to trade Brandon Workman and Mookie Betts for Matt Kemp???

[Hugh2]

Salary dump!!!!!!! I think we all agree there. Don't underestimate the value of a good organizational guy though, it adds value to have good guys surrounding future stars coming up. Also, you never know, the Sox might have seen something they like in him. Sometimes throw ins shatter all expectations, which realistically with this guy would be him turning out to be a good bench bat : / but yeah....that's more wishful thinking than it's not but hey you gotta fill the minor league rosters too!!!!!!!!