Lineup Discussions

[Slasher9]

stop clogging up the bases.

[cp176]

There is ZERO way the FO doesn't address losing Ortiz in the lineup......ZEROOOOOOOOO WAY. They WILL make a splash either via trade or FA's. Encarnacion (sp) will be on the Sox next year......

 

Absolutely!!! Even though our ownership has a history of trying to cobble together a low budget team to meet our most pressing needs (lol) I'm with you on this one. On a team with serious budgetary restrictions maybe it would make sense to patch things together and it might even work but on this team they more than likely will try to replace Papi's bat with another clouter like Encarnarcion.

[Kimmi]

I would love to have Encarnacion on the team as much as the next guy, but signing him to a 5+ year contract would be stupid. Personally, I would not sign him for more than 3 years.

 

We do not have to replace Papi with the best (and most expensive) hitter available. We lead the AL in runs scored by over 100 runs. This will still be a very good offense after Papi retires.

[StephenCurry30]

Encarnacion in Fenway is a boner giver. It would depend on commitment. Id give him 4 years tbh. just need to find a way to kill pablo or something.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I would love to have Encarnacion on the team as much as the next guy, but signing him to a 5+ year contract would be stupid. Personally, I would not sign him for more than 3 years.

 

We do not have to replace Papi with the best (and most expensive) hitter available. We lead the AL in runs scored by over 100 runs. This will still be a very good offense after Papi retires.

 

Agreed. We'll miss him, and no matter who we replace him with, we'll be losing production, but it won't be the death knell for any further success. I think of Ortiz kind of like Tom Brady, as much as I hate the guy. When Brady was out for a season, and Matt Cassel replaced him, the Patriots still went 11-5, because the Patriots still had a great team behind him. Compare that to the Colts. They were contenders, or at least competitive, every year. Then Manning left, and their first year without him, they went 2-14, because unlike the Brady situation, Manning was the only great player they had. Losing Ortiz is much more like that Brady-less Pats team then the Manning-less Colts team.

[Kimmi]

Agreed. We'll miss him, and no matter who we replace him with, we'll be losing production, but it won't be the death knell for any further success. I think of Ortiz kind of like Tom Brady, as much as I hate the guy. When Brady was out for a season, and Matt Cassel replaced him, the Patriots still went 11-5, because the Patriots still had a great team behind him. Compare that to the Colts. They were contenders, or at least competitive, every year. Then Manning left, and their first year without him, they went 2-14, because unlike the Brady situation, Manning was the only great player they had. Losing Ortiz is much more like that Brady-less Pats team then the Manning-less Colts team.

 

Exactly. And I'm pretty confident that the FO will upgrade the team in other areas, most notably the pen, to help offset some of the offensive loss.

[Spudboy]

Cute anecdotes aside, why would the Sox stand still when Ortiz retires? They will be losing much of the meat of the order. That is okay if you do not plan on trying to get better or at least try to keep pace with other teams that upgrade.

 

The question is what pieces will be brought in.

 

I don't believe the Sox will "stand pat" this off season.

[cp176]

I would love to have Encarnacion on the team as much as the next guy, but signing him to a 5+ year contract would be stupid. Personally, I would not sign him for more than 3 years.

 

We do not have to replace Papi with the best (and most expensive) hitter available. We lead the AL in runs scored by over 100 runs. This will still be a very good offense after Papi retires.

 

Who says it will be a 5+ year contract? i have not seen or heard anything about this at all. What we we think and what he takes might be dramatically different. Maybe someone will offer him a 5+ year contract to be their dh. I doubt that. I seriously doubt that it will be the Red Sox. The direction I am taking is that if Henry wants him, he will pay what he wants for him. Regardless of what it costs, whether it seems to make sense to us or not, it his money and past history says that it is likely that a signing of this nature will not have much of an effect on the Red Sox ability or desire to sign top talent going forward.

[cp176]

Cute anecdotes aside, why would the Sox stand still when Ortiz retires? They will be losing much of the meat of the order. That is okay if you do not plan on trying to get better or at least try to keep pace with other teams that upgrade.

 

The question is what pieces will be brought in.

 

I don't believe the Sox will "stand pat" this off season.

 

 

i don't think that they will stand pat either. No one can predict how the team will hit in general without having Papi's bat in the lineup. It makes absolute sense to replace him with a big bat if one is available.

[moonslav59]

Who says it will be a 5+ year contract? i have not seen or heard anything about this at all. What we we think and what he takes might be dramatically different. Maybe someone will offer him a 5+ year contract to be their dh. I doubt that. I seriously doubt that it will be the Red Sox. The direction I am taking is that if Henry wants him, he will pay what he wants for him. Regardless of what it costs, whether it seems to make sense to us or not, it his money and past history says that it is likely that a signing of this nature will not have much of an effect on the Red Sox ability or desire to sign top talent going forward.

 

EE turns 34 in January. There's little doubt this is his last big chance to cash in. He's made under $30M for the last 3 years combined. At his production level, my feeling is, he's going to want to maximize his vale. I could be wrong, but why would he sign a 2 years deal that brings him to age 36?

 

I suppose he could sign for 4 years at a higher rate than some GM's 5 year offer, but even a 4 year deal seems scary when he approaches 38 in his final year. Not every player is like Papi. Papi is a freak of nature.

 

I'd love to have EE smack in the middle of our line-up, but these large and long deal have been killing us, and this one seems like there are red flags going up every where.

 

He's basically a DH only. If he plays 1B in NL parks, we have to sit HanRam. That's not good. Even Papi didn't make $24+M. He barely made 2/3rds of that!

 

Hes' right- handed....further "unbalancing" our team.

 

If we truly have just $30-35M to spend, signing EE and taking Buch's option means no money left over for the pen. If we don't take Buch back, our rotational depth is weakened. Plus, just $10-12M might not be enough to add 1 quality RP'ers.

 

My guess is we go after Beltran (bats S), Adam Lind (L), Martin Prado ®, K Morales(S), or Justin Turner (R but .915 OPS v RHPs this year)

 

Maybe we can expand on a trade for an ace with the White Sox and get Abreu or Frazier.

 

It doesn't seem like anyone sticks out as an obvious target.

 

[cp176]

EE turns 34 in January. There's little doubt this is his last big chance to cash in. He's made under $30M for the last 3 years combined. At his production level, my feeling is, he's going to want to maximize his vale. I could be wrong, but why would he sign a 2 years deal that brings him to age 36?

 

I suppose he could sign for 4 years at a higher rate than some GM's 5 year offer, but even a 4 year deal seems scary when he approaches 38 in his final year. Not every player is like Papi. Papi is a freak of nature.

 

I'd love to have EE smack in the middle of our line-up, but these large and long deal have been killing us, and this one seems like there are red flags going up every where.

 

He's basically a DH only. If he plays 1B in NL parks, we have to sit HanRam. That's not good. Even Papi didn't make $24+M. He barely made 2/3rds of that!

 

Hes' right- handed....further "unbalancing" our team.

 

If we truly have just $30-35M to spend, signing EE and taking Buch's option means no money left over for the pen. If we don't take Buch back, our rotational depth is weakened. Plus, just $10-12M might not be enough to add 1 quality RP'ers.

 

My guess is we go after Beltran (bats S), Adam Lind (L), Martin Prado ®, K Morales(S), or Justin Turner (R but .915 OPS v RHPs this year)

 

Maybe we can expand on a trade for an ace with the White Sox and get Abreu or Frazier.

 

It doesn't seem like anyone sticks out as an obvious target.

 

 

i hope that no one would disagree with your line of reasoning. The problem i see is that no one really has any idea what a 34 year old dh is going to be offered by anyone. If some organization truly feels that signing a 34 year old dh long term to the type of contract that you and others suggest that he will be offered more power to them. Personally I would be stunned if he receives the type of offer that is being suggested. Where do those numbers come from. Do you honestly think that he is likely to be offered a Price like contract? I don't. If he does, he better sign quickly. 3 years with an option - I'm ok with it.

[oldtimer]

We are now very likely to go into the playoffs so who will be have on the roster. My understanding is that we take 25 players and that we can set that roster before each series using everyone on the 40 man plus any on the various DL's. If we have an injury during the series and replace that player, the injured player is lost for the rest of the playoffs. There may be a couple of other eligibility categories, but that is pretty much how it lines up.

 

Who will we go in with? Clearly Hanley, Pedey, Bogey, Shaw, Ortiz, the 4 outfielders and Leon. I assume Holt and the backup catcher is not clear. That leaves one. Since Holt can back up most positions I would think we would want someone who can play short, second or third. Will it be Hernandez?

 

Do we take 12 pitchers into the playoffs? If so, it is clear that Price, Porcello, E-Rod and Pomeranz will make it as starters and the relievers will be Kimbrel, Uehara, Ziegler, Ross. Beyond them, Kelly and Barnes and Buchholz are very likely. That leaves Tazawa, Abad and the new young lefty whose name escapes me at the moment. Since we need a second lefty at least, pick one or leave some of the very likely off the list.

 

Finally, if Wright can make it back in decent form, he is likely to be in the list of starters, leaving who off, Buchholz? with Pomeranz as a relief option?

 

Any thoughts?

[Bellhorn04]

We are now very likely to go into the playoffs so who will be have on the roster. My understanding is that we take 25 players and that we can set that roster before each series using everyone on the 40 man plus any on the various DL's. If we have an injury during the series and replace that player, the injured player is lost for the rest of the playoffs. There may be a couple of other eligibility categories, but that is pretty much how it lines up.

 

Who will we go in with? Clearly Hanley, Pedey, Bogey, Shaw, Ortiz, the 4 outfielders and Leon. I assume Holt and the backup catcher is not clear. That leaves one. Since Holt can back up most positions I would think we would want someone who can play short, second or third. Will it be Hernandez?

 

Do we take 12 pitchers into the playoffs? If so, it is clear that Price, Porcello, E-Rod and Pomeranz will make it as starters and the relievers will be Kimbrel, Uehara, Ziegler, Ross. Beyond them, Kelly and Barnes and Buchholz are very likely. That leaves Tazawa, Abad and the new young lefty whose name escapes me at the moment. Since we need a second lefty at least, pick one or leave some of the very likely off the list.

 

Finally, if Wright can make it back in decent form, he is likely to be in the list of starters, leaving who off, Buchholz? with Pomeranz as a relief option?

 

Any thoughts?

 

The new young lefty is Robby Scott.

 

I'm afraid we won't see Wright again until 2017.

 

I think the 3/4 slots in the playoff rotation would be E-Rod and Buchholz, or vice versa, depending on who looks the best at decision time, with Pomeranz to the pen.

[Nick]

Cute anecdotes aside, why would the Sox stand still when Ortiz retires? They will be losing much of the meat of the order. That is okay if you do not plan on trying to get better or at least try to keep pace with other teams that upgrade.

 

The question is what pieces will be brought in.

 

I don't believe the Sox will "stand pat" this off season.

 

This..+1000......DD has to answer to Henry. Question will be how do we replace Ortiz? DD "Hanley", Henry, "what about 1B?" "Well, we're hoping......." DD is NOT stupid. He will need action plan. Does anyone honestly believe DD will tell Henry that we led the majors by 100 runs so we have plenty of room to become inefficient and still lead the league in runs scored?

 

My counter arguement would be but we only won by 4 games while out scoring others by 100 runs.

 

"we're hoping for combination of things to occur"....Do you think that line of reasoning will also work with Henry?

 

Otherwise, we're back to Ben Cherington's idea of no ace but don't worry we have five #2 pitchers scenario. How did that work out?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Nick

[illinoisredsox]

We are now very likely to go into the playoffs so who will be have on the roster. My understanding is that we take 25 players and that we can set that roster before each series using everyone on the 40 man plus any on the various DL's. If we have an injury during the series and replace that player, the injured player is lost for the rest of the playoffs. There may be a couple of other eligibility categories, but that is pretty much how it lines up.

 

Who will we go in with? Clearly Hanley, Pedey, Bogey, Shaw, Ortiz, the 4 outfielders and Leon. I assume Holt and the backup catcher is not clear. That leaves one. Since Holt can back up most positions I would think we would want someone who can play short, second or third. Will it be Hernandez?

 

Do we take 12 pitchers into the playoffs? If so, it is clear that Price, Porcello, E-Rod and Pomeranz will make it as starters and the relievers will be Kimbrel, Uehara, Ziegler, Ross. Beyond them, Kelly and Barnes and Buchholz are very likely. That leaves Tazawa, Abad and the new young lefty whose name escapes me at the moment. Since we need a second lefty at least, pick one or leave some of the very likely off the list.

 

Finally, if Wright can make it back in decent form, he is likely to be in the list of starters, leaving who off, Buchholz? with Pomeranz as a relief option?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Wright will not be part of the postseason rotation. At this point, he's been out what, 7 weeks? If he were ready to go today (which by all I've seen he isn't), he would have at most 2 starts to get back to form. I know building arm strength isn't exactly a requirement for a knuckleball pitcher, but you do have to build a little to go 6-7 innings and he would have to regain the touch.

 

At this point, it's ERod, Buchholz and Pomeranz for 2 spots in the postseason rotation. ERod has never relieved (okay, once in the Gulf Coast League 5 years ago), so you almost have to pencil him into the rotation. Whoever is better between Buch and Pomeranz the next 2 weeks will get the other slot. It could even come down to a team match-up thing (I think I heard last night that Cleveland has a really good record against lefties, so do you want 2 of them (Price being the other) in the rotation against them?

[moonslav59]

i hope that no one would disagree with your line of reasoning. The problem i see is that no one really has any idea what a 34 year old dh is going to be offered by anyone. If some organization truly feels that signing a 34 year old dh long term to the type of contract that you and others suggest that he will be offered more power to them. Personally I would be stunned if he receives the type of offer that is being suggested. Where do those numbers come from. Do you honestly think that he is likely to be offered a Price like contract? I don't. If he does, he better sign quickly. 3 years with an option - I'm ok with it.

 

I think minimum, he gets $80M/4. I think some GM might offer $95M/5....like what the Sox gave Pablo!!!!!!!

 

I bet he gets more than either of those offers, but if use papi's $16M as a benchmark, then maybe I'm way off..

[User Name]

I'd give E5 4/80 and wouldn't break a sweat about it.

[moonslav59]

This..+1000......DD has to answer to Henry. Question will be how do we replace Ortiz? DD "Hanley", Henry, "what about 1B?" "Well, we're hoping......." DD is NOT stupid. He will need action plan. Does anyone honestly believe DD will tell Henry that we led the majors by 100 runs so we have plenty of room to become inefficient and still lead the league in runs scored?

 

My counter arguement would be but we only won by 4 games while out scoring others by 100 runs.

 

"we're hoping for combination of things to occur"....Do you think that line of reasoning will also work with Henry?

 

Otherwise, we're back to Ben Cherington's idea of no ace but don't worry we have five #2 pitchers scenario. How did that work out?

 

Nobody is arguing standing pat.

 

There are more ways to improve a team by just trying to replace an outgoing stud's offense.

 

I do think DD will go after Beltran or Turner- not a big named player seeking 4+ years.

 

Here's another way to look at it: instead of trying to replace Papi's 600 PAs or 1.000+ OPS offense, we could replace these PAs with more from Beni (.865), Swihart (.720), Young (.894), Moncada, Leon (.891) and Holt (.717):

 

PAs Player OPS

177 Vaz .580

124 Hill .554

110 Hanigan .463

64 Brentz .690

31 Holaday .459

12 Marrero .350

23 others going 3 for 36.

 

That's about 550 PAs of putricity.

 

I'm not saying this will make up for losing Papi, but it's a big step in the right direction. Add a couple strong set-up men in the pen, maybe upgrade a SP'er, pick up a Beltran or Turner, and we may come close to making 8up for Papi's loss without gambling on EE.

 

[moonslav59]

I'd give E5 4/80 and wouldn't break a sweat about it.

 

That's about the most and longest I'd even consider, but I think he gets much more.

 

Not that it matters, but wouldn't Papi get a little peeved to see EE get $20M x 4, when all he could get was $16M x 2?

[User Name]

Age, market, ability to (somewhat) play a position.

[cp176]

I'd give E5 4/80 and wouldn't break a sweat about it.

 

I think 80 for 4 is a hell of a lot closer to reality than 30 + for however many years. He is going to be a dh. 4 at 20 and he plays in a Red Sox uni. What do the better dh's make these days? Is it even remotely logical or possible that all of a sudden one is going to paid twice as much as the best make this year?

[moonslav59]

I think 80 for 4 is a hell of a lot closer to reality than 30 + for however many years. He is going to be a dh. 4 at 20 and he plays in a Red Sox uni. What do the better dh's make these days? Is it even remotely logical or possible that all of a sudden one is going to paid twice as much as the best make this year?

 

Did someone say he was going to make $30M a year?

[moonslav59]

Did someone say he was going to make $30M a year?

 

He only made $30M in his last 3 years combined.

[S5Dewey]

He only made $30M in his last 3 years combined.

 

Perspective being everything, I have to chuckle at this post. He "only" made $30M in three years?? I know, I know. Ballplayers get paid unreasonably well.

 

But anyway... The Sox may have one thing to offer that many teams don't have. The legitimate chance at a ring, and as players age that becomes more and more of a priority to them. Sometimes that's even worth money or years on a contract, especially to a guy who's already a multi-millionaire. Without that carrot I don't think the Sox will even be in the running for EE, but with a ring in mind Boston (and less money) may look better to him

[cp176]

He only made $30M in his last 3 years combined.

 

i must have dreamed it. With all this talk about how John Henry should be spending his money in addition to how much he has to spend coming from sources that really don't know what he might do, i might have just gotten confused.

[Kimmi]

Cute anecdotes aside, why would the Sox stand still when Ortiz retires? They will be losing much of the meat of the order. That is okay if you do not plan on trying to get better or at least try to keep pace with other teams that upgrade.

 

The question is what pieces will be brought in.

 

I don't believe the Sox will "stand pat" this off season.

 

I don't think anyone suggested that they will stand pat.

 

I just don't think they need to go out and buy the best FA available in an attempt to replace Papi. Our offense will be fine.

 

There many other ways that the FO can somewhat offset the loss of Papi without signing Encarnacion.

[moonslav59]

i must have dreamed it. With all this talk about how John Henry should be spending his money in addition to how much he has to spend coming from sources that really don't know what he might do, i might have just gotten confused.

 

Well, I did mention he might get $22M x 5 and someone said they thought he'd get more.

[Kimmi]

Who says it will be a 5+ year contract? i have not seen or heard anything about this at all. What we we think and what he takes might be dramatically different. Maybe someone will offer him a 5+ year contract to be their dh. I doubt that. I seriously doubt that it will be the Red Sox. The direction I am taking is that if Henry wants him, he will pay what he wants for him. Regardless of what it costs, whether it seems to make sense to us or not, it his money and past history says that it is likely that a signing of this nature will not have much of an effect on the Red Sox ability or desire to sign top talent going forward.

 

I have no idea what kind of contract he will get, but I'm guessing that it will be larger than what any team should be willing to give him.

 

You and I will have to disagree on Henry's willingness to pay whatever it takes. He will not make a regular habit of doing that.

[Kimmi]

i must have dreamed it. With all this talk about how John Henry should be spending his money in addition to how much he has to spend coming from sources that really don't know what he might do, i might have just gotten confused.

 

It's a baseball discussion board. All this talk about how Henry should spend his money even though we don't know what he will do is what we do.

[Kimmi]

Nobody is arguing standing pat.

 

There are more ways to improve a team by just trying to replace an outgoing stud's offense.

 

Thank you.