Red Sox Acquire Drew Pomeranz

[Nick]

I'm hoping for the best. I don't dislike Pomeranz. Just because I listed my concerns, especially regarding his sample size, does not mean I think he will fail. I actually think he'll do fine. He should be our number 3 or 4 for the next 2.4 years at a low financial cost. That will aloow us to spend in other high need areas over the next 2 winters.

 

I realize any acquisition is a gamble or risk, and I realize Espi was also a gamble and risk. I'm not terribly upset by the deal, but I don't like it. To me, it's actually more about Espi than Pomeranz, but I know my posts have been more about Pomeranz concerns.

 

Assuming 150 starting pitching slots broken into groups of 30's, top 30 being #1 starters, next 30 being #2 starters, etc, where do you rank Sox starters going forward?

 

1 Price ( )

2 Porcello (-)

3 Pomeranz, (-) Wright ( )

4

5 E Rod (-)

 

We can further separate each group by + (top 1/3) neutral (next 1/3) and - (bottom 1/3).

 

It would be interesting to see 1-75 ranking for AL starters. I have no idea on what basis though. Thoughts?

[Emp9]

I'm hoping for the best. I don't dislike Pomeranz. Just because I listed my concerns, especially regarding his sample size, does not mean I think he will fail. I actually think he'll do fine. He should be our number 3 or 4 for the next 2.4 years at a low financial cost. That will aloow us to spend in other high need areas over the next 2 winters.

 

I realize any acquisition is a gamble or risk, and I realize Espi was also a gamble and risk. I'm not terribly upset by the deal, but I don't like it. To me, it's actually more about Espi than Pomeranz, but I know my posts have been more about Pomeranz concerns.

 

Might be a good time to think about extending some guys... Betts,XB, JBJ. If things work out w/ Pomeranz.

[Hitch]

we weren't going to get Jose Fernandez for one Single A player even if his name was Jesus Christ. Pomeranz is 27, cheap, and he maybe achieving his major league peak potential. What did people expect to get for this kid? LOL. It's not like he wasted this chip on a 36 year old injury risk like Hill.

 

Well no, but lets not pretend the only options were just Hill or Pomeranz.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but I'm sure people who have their opinions will have made them available. I was just saying I can understand why people are upset. The kid is a very highly rated and there are plenty of risks with the trade.

 

Either way, I'm glad we made a move. And hopefully what we've seen this year is the real deal....

[Dojji]

Assuming 150 starting pitching slots broken into groups of 30's, top 30 being #1 starters, next 30 being #2 starters, etc, where do you rank Sox starters going forward?

 

1 Price ( )

2 Porcello (-)

3 Pomeranz, (-) Wright ( )

4

5 E Rod (-)

 

We can further separate each group by + (top 1/3) neutral (next 1/3) and - (bottom 1/3).

 

It would be interesting to see 1-75 ranking for AL starters. I have no idea on what basis though. Thoughts?

 

Forgive me, but I think you're underselling Wright just a little. I understand in principle about taking a few points off because of the unproven factor, but Wright has actually been fairly effective throughout his big league existence. I was calling like mad for him to break camp in the rotation because of his splits as a starter prior to this year, which were very good. He's playing up right now, yes, and he's probably due for a mild regression, but his career numbers as a starter prior to this year were about a 3.5 ERA and ~6 IP a night. if those represent closer to the "real" Steven Wright, then he's still both a #2 starter and an All-Star.

[Dojji]

Well no, but lets not pretend the only options were just Hill or Pomeranz.

 

DD literally came out and said that the only options were just Hill or Pomeranz. No one else was biting on anything close to an acceptable price. Beane was asking for Espinosa for Hill.. If you understand nothing else, understand that. I can't blame DD for paying an "unreasonable" price when there was literally no way on God's green earth we were going to get a meaningful upgrade for a price I considered reasonable.

 

DD had to choose who to proect and he chose to protect Benintendi and Moncada and I agree that losing those two would hurt worse, and in ways that hurt us sooner. You literally cannot protect everyone. you have to make some valuable pieces available to get value back.

 

Frankly given the drastically overinflated market, you can make an argument that the Padres cut us a break. I mean... did you hear what the Braves wanted for Teharan? Anderson Espinosa is an afterthought compared to the sheer rack and ruin that trade would have inflicted on our farm.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Dojji

[bowman]

Braves held on to there reliever and now he's on the DL, and you wonder why they suck. They can build Teheren up all they want, but I wouldn't give them too much for him. They should of taken what they could of when I'm sure DD made his pitch. Our farm is loaded. My guess is our young pitching is better than it has shown so far, and will get better. Have to ride the bumps. Kopech, Groome, life is good........

[moonslav59]

Assuming 150 starting pitching slots broken into groups of 30's, top 30 being #1 starters, next 30 being #2 starters, etc, where do you rank Sox starters going forward?

 

1 Price ( )

2 Porcello (-)

3 Pomeranz, (-) Wright ( )

4

5 E Rod (-)

 

We can further separate each group by + (top 1/3) neutral (next 1/3) and - (bottom 1/3).

 

It would be interesting to see 1-75 ranking for AL starters. I have no idea on what basis though. Thoughts?

over the next 1.4 yrs...

I see Price as 1+

Portillo 2

Wright 3+

Pomeranz 3

ERod 4+

[moonslav59]

DD literally came out and said that the only options were just Hill or Pomeranz. No one else was biting on anything close to an acceptable price. Beane was asking for Espinosa for Hill.. If you understand nothing else, understand that. I can't blame DD for paying an "unreasonable" price when there was literally no way on God's green earth we were going to get a meaningful upgrade for a price I considered reasonable.

 

DD had to choose who to proect and he chose to protect Benintendi and Moncada and I agree that losing those two would hurt worse, and in ways that hurt us sooner. You literally cannot protect everyone. you have to make some valuable pieces available to get value back.

 

Frankly given the drastically overinflated market, you can make an argument that the Padres cut us a break. I mean... did you hear what the Braves wanted for Teharan? Anderson Espinosa is an afterthought compared to the sheer rack and ruin that trade would have inflicted on our farm.

 

My main issue on DD was not making another move for a quality SPer last winter. That was a better choice than having to choose between Jill and Jed for espi

[bowman]

If Pom is solid, we can live with a few hick ups from Erod until he gets it going. If not, hopefully, Erod doesn't have too many bumps..lol

[Jack Flap]

Hill is a 2-3 month rental. Beane can ask for whatever he wants, but he basically has to trade Hill, and there is zero chance he ends up with an Espinoza-quality prospect for him. None.

[Nick]

I know it was the Yankees but E Rod pitched well today.

 

Threw slider and had command of his pitches....of course Yankees helped a lot by not being very selective in key moments.

 

Good outing for E Rod.

[Jasonbay44]

I know it was the Yankees but E Rod pitched well today.

 

Threw slider and had command of his pitches....of course Yankees helped a lot by not being very selective in key moments.

 

Good outing for E Rod.

Definitely very encouraging, regardless of the team he faced.

[Nick]

TODAY Price, Wright, Porcello, Rodriquez, Buchholtz, Koji, Ziegler, Hembree, Barnes, Layne, Ross, Cuevas

 

Sunday We add Pomeranz, drop Cuevas?

 

Next week Tazawa returns, Kelly returns at some point......Don't we have to trade Buchholtz especially after today?

[cp176]

over the next 1.4 yrs...

I see Price as 1+

Portillo 2

Wright 3+

Pomeranz 3

ERod 4+

 

I have no clue what you folks are doing here but I am jumping in anyway. i have been a great supporter of E-Rods since he was acquired. he has always projected as a #2 with potential to be better. He is a kid and if he is healthy and ready, he allows our GM to strengthen our team in other areas. i don't think that he is done by any means but the need for another starter at this time might not be that important. It is early but if this kid is healthy he sure as hell is better than anybody's 5. he could have great career ahead of him.

[moonslav59]

I have no clue what you folks are doing here but I am jumping in anyway. i have been a great supporter of E-Rods since he was acquired. he has always projected as a #2 with potential to be better. He is a kid and if he is healthy and ready, he allows our GM to strengthen our team in other areas. i don't think that he is done by any means but the need for another starter at this time might not be that important. It is early but if this kid is healthy he sure as hell is better than anybody's 5. he could have great career ahead of him.

 

I totally agree, but I felt like I had to put someone below 3-.

[cp176]

I understand. i've been a fan of this kids for awhile now. If he is healthy, I think that he is this kind of pitcher against anybody very soon. with the addition of Pomeranz, our one time weak starting rotation looks really quite good all of a sudden. Fairly young as well. Today and the future of this team is looking better and better.

[Navafan29]

We know that we have to make some trade for pitching before the deadline. If you never go for a World Series, there's not much of a point in raising a team in the first place. What's important is not just how good a player is, but the timing of them becoming good. A top pitching prospect that will only be good by the time our offense isn't good enough to win the WS anymore... sometimes isn't as valuable as a pitcher who is solid while our offense is elite. We're a big market team that can afford to take risks to an extent. Was there a better deal possible? Maybe, but it's risky to let the limited number of pitchers sit there as other teams eye a trade.

 

I don't see much of a point in even watching this season if we don't want to go for it. We were all in agreement that we should do some sort of trade for a SP, but we don't all agree on the whether this one was worth it. It's a bit silly that we are trying to figure out whether or not the trade was worth it without seeing the end result of this season. I won't care how much we gave up this year if we win the World Series. A World Series is always worth anything, even two World Series. World Series win = the entire point. How about we complain about all these trades after we get eliminated this year? I may even join you guys in complaining if we don't win the WS.

[Nick]

On the heels of 2 last place finishes in a tough baseball town, even John Farrell senses urgency to get to the playoffs.

 

Good fortune is that we have a wave of talented young players arriving on the major league stage at about the same time.

Starting pitching can get better but the five starters are all under team control for at least 2 more years.

 

Offensively we can probably get by with what we have coming back. Bullpen will need to replace Koji, TazaWa and Ziegler. It's doable.

 

As long as we stay healthy, we should be contenders through 2018 and beyond if we can sign or extend our young kids.

[a700hitter]

I'm a little late getting to this party. I can't believe there are almost 500 posts on this topic in 3 days. There's really not much to say that hasn't already been said. Good arguments on both sides.

 

We paid a steep price, but on the whole, I like this deal. There are some valid concerns, but our team is better than it was before the trade. Pomeranz, at the very least, should be able to stabilize the bottom part of the rotation.

 

Additionally, the trade should be an emotional boost to the team. The FO has sent a clear message to the players that they are all in. I will hand it to Dombrowski - he doesn't mess around.

 

I will echo the concerns about what Dombrowski might do to our farm system. At this point, it is still in good shape. However, Dombrowski cannot continue to overpay and trade away our prospects with a 'win now' mentality.

I was wondering where you were in this thread. Good points.

[moonslav59]

If we had traded Espi for Hill, I'd have gone ape s***!

[Hitch]

DD literally came out and said that the only options were just Hill or Pomeranz. No one else was biting on anything close to an acceptable price. Beane was asking for Espinosa for Hill.. If you understand nothing else, understand that. I can't blame DD for paying an "unreasonable" price when there was literally no way on God's green earth we were going to get a meaningful upgrade for a price I considered reasonable.

 

DD had to choose who to proect and he chose to protect Benintendi and Moncada and I agree that losing those two would hurt worse, and in ways that hurt us sooner. You literally cannot protect everyone. you have to make some valuable pieces available to get value back.

 

Frankly given the drastically overinflated market, you can make an argument that the Padres cut us a break. I mean... did you hear what the Braves wanted for Teharan? Anderson Espinosa is an afterthought compared to the sheer rack and ruin that trade would have inflicted on our farm.

 

I worded my post badly. I was speaking in the abstract, rather than the literal. He had given two players on the opposite end of the spectrum and I was saying it is never an either/or choice to that extreme.

 

I did see what Atlanta wanted and they have been routinely mocked for it from all quarters. That's Atlanta. Not the entire league. Although I agree the market isn't great at the moment for starting pitchers. But did us a favour? Give me a break. It might turn out to be a great trade for us. It might turn out a great trade for them. But nobody sound of mind could POSSIBLY make the argument they did us a favour.

 

Do you have the quotes or links to DD saying that Hill and Pomeranz were literally the only two pitchers available? And the same for Oakland wanting Espinoza for Hill? It's not that I don't believe you but I'd like to see them for myself as I find that very hard to believe, even for Beane.

 

Let me just reiterate again, I don't hate the trade. I was just saying why I think there are sound reasons to worry about this trade because the people who are, were being treated a little like they were anti-win and other such horseshit, about 20 pages ago when I made the post.

 

Overall I'm on the side of the trade, but there are very big risks that come with it.

[Jack Flap]

I worded my post badly. I was speaking in the abstract, rather than the literal. He had given two players on the opposite end of the spectrum and I was saying it is never an either/or choice to that extreme.

 

I did see what Atlanta wanted and they have been routinely mocked for it from all quarters. That's Atlanta. Not the entire league. Although I agree the market isn't great at the moment for starting pitchers. But did us a favour? Give me a break. It might turn out to be a great trade for us. It might turn out a great trade for them. But nobody sound of mind could POSSIBLY make the argument they did us a favour.

 

Do you have the quotes or links to DD saying that Hill and Pomeranz were literally the only two pitchers available? And the same for Oakland wanting Espinoza for Hill? It's not that I don't believe you but I'd like to see them for myself as I find that very hard to believe, even for Beane.

 

Let me just reiterate again, I don't hate the trade. I was just saying why I think there are sound reasons to worry about this trade because the people who are, were being treated a little like they were anti-win and other such horseshit, about 20 pages ago when I made the post.

 

Overall I'm on the side of the trade, but there are very big risks that come with it.

 

I think this idea is coming from the quote below...no, he didn't specifically talk about Oakland or Hill, but you can read between the lines:

“I don’t know if it was a priority, but it’s helpful,” Dombrowski said of Pomeranz being under team control for two years. “And the second part of it is that we found we were being asked for the same people no matter what the amount of service time left was, even though somebody was in the last year of their free agency vs. somebody that had a couple of years to go, the same names kept coming up as far as the players we were being asked to trade.

 

“The second part is that we found we were being asked for the same people no matter what the amount of service time left was. Even though somebody was in the last year of their free agency versus somebody that had a couple of years to go, the same names kept coming up, the players that we were being asked to trade.”

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/07/14/dave-dombrowski-details-why-red-sox-traded-for-drew-pomeranz/

 

 

A lot of the arguments in favor of this deal have been based around the idea that we weren't going to get a decent pitcher -- even a rental -- without giving up Espinoza, which I don't believe. Fortunately, unless Oakland inexplicably holds on to Hill and the Phillies do the same with Hellickson, we will soon be able to see what it took to land them, and to estimate what a similar package from the Red Sox would have looked like. Same for any other pitcher that may change hands between now and August 1st.

[Hitch]

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I don't think even Beane could have asked for that trade. Not in any serious way of thinking it had a shot.

[Kimmi]

I wish they'd drill in and come up with different set of numbers for different pitches....vs fastball, vs cutter/slider, etc...anyone know if there's one somewhere (averages for batted balls in play)?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=11426&position=P

 

Scroll down to "Advanced" and you can find the BABIP broken down by pitch type.

[devildavid]

I read most of this thread. Do I get a medal?

 

Random takes:

 

I love Hugh's knowledge and passion when it comes to prospects. I think some are a little sensitive when he points out that not all fans look too deeply at prospects. I don't know a damn thing about prospects so I really appreciate his advocacy of building a strong farm system coupled with being patient with top young talent.

 

I agree with Moon that not enough was done in the off-season to build quality depth into the pitching staff. The price in prospects in off-season trades is probably not as steep as mid-season when buyers may be more at the mercy of sellers. Still, I see the difficulties of seeing the future. A GM has to be very good at looking long range to anticipate future team needs way before they arise. But quality pitching depth should have been the focus. DD did pick up two top pitchers in Price and Kimbrel, but maybe should have done more when it could have cost less.

 

As for trading for Pomerantz, I like the move, short term, I think it makes the Sox better now. It would go a long way if he can help Big Papi end his career as a champion. It fills a pressing need in the run for a championship and indicates to fans that the Sox are going for it. Henry brought Dombrowski to Boston for a reason. I think he wants to bring back the spirit that arose in 2004.

[Bellhorn04]

As for trading for Pomerantz, I like the move, short term, I think it makes the Sox better now. It would go a long way if he can help Big Papi end his career as a champion. It fills a pressing need in the run for a championship and indicates to fans that the Sox are going for it. Henry brought Dombrowski to Boston for a reason. I think he wants to bring back the spirit that arose in 2004.

 

We're very lucky to have Henry as an owner.

[User Name]

Pomeranz' knuckle curve is crazy good, and improving.

[S5Dewey]

We're very lucky to have Henry as an owner.

 

Today is only Sunday and IMO this is the post of the week.

 

We're beyond "lucky" to have JH as the principal owner. JH has brought three World Series Championships to Boston, a town that hadn't had ONE in 80+ years. He also saved an icon of baseball - Fenway Park - from being replaced by something newer, brighter, and shinier. But without the tradition.

 

I would posit that the landscape for baseball in Boston would look a whole lot different if it weren't for JH, and we'd still be hearing those obnoxious Yankee fans talking about all those rings and how may years it has been since the Sox had a WSC. Now all the have to talk about is ancient history.

 

Thanks, JH.

[moonslav59]

I read most of this thread. Do I get a medal?

 

Random takes:

 

I love Hugh's knowledge and passion when it comes to prospects. I think some are a little sensitive when he points out that not all fans look too deeply at prospects. I don't know a damn thing about prospects so I really appreciate his advocacy of building a strong farm system coupled with being patient with top young talent.

 

I agree with Moon that not enough was done in the off-season to build quality depth into the pitching staff. The price in prospects in off-season trades is probably not as steep as mid-season when buyers may be more at the mercy of sellers. Still, I see the difficulties of seeing the future. A GM has to be very good at looking long range to anticipate future team needs way before they arise. But quality pitching depth should have been the focus. DD did pick up two top pitchers in Price and Kimbrel, but maybe should have done more when it could have cost less.

 

As for trading for Pomerantz, I like the move, short term, I think it makes the Sox better now. It would go a long way if he can help Big Papi end his career as a champion. It fills a pressing need in the run for a championship and indicates to fans that the Sox are going for it. Henry brought Dombrowski to Boston for a reason. I think he wants to bring back the spirit that arose in 2004.

 

I realize Young has done very well for us this year, but to me, it's easier to find a decent LF'er (DMac, Nava, de Aza) mid season than a SP'er. The $6M spent on Young per season could have been used to sign someone like Hill or Fister. Even though risk was involved with either choice.

 

My own preference was to go bigger. I won't get into the whole Margot & Guerra package, but even after the Kimbrel trade, I still felt we could have gotten someone very special for Swihart, Devers plus maybe one or two from Holt/Hernandez/Marrero/Dubon, Chavis/Travis, Owens/Johnson/TBall or maybe even Kopech.

[moonslav59]

Pomeranz' knuckle curve is crazy good, and improving.

 

It's nice that Pomeranz still has upside potential or at least a significant chance at continuing his recent trend.

 

He's a big plus to our rotation over the next 2.4 seasons.

 

The big minus of losing Espi won't hit us until after Pom is gone.