PED Discussion

[mvp 78]

Jeter had to be dirty. It is hard to believe that he could have been so durable without some help.

 

He was very statuesque at SS. Probably due to excess stiffness caused by roids.

[mvp 78]

I guess Lou Gehrig must have been dirty too!!

 

Died at an early age just like a lot of other steroid abusers...

[sk7326]

Jeter had to be dirty. It is hard to believe that he could have been so durable without some help.

 

That's what (many, many, many) she said

[a700hitter]

I guess Lou Gehrig must have been dirty too!!

You only had to go back 80 years to find a clean Yankee? Edited June 22, 2016 by a700hitter

[Emp9]

Are you a Red Sox fan? Yes. Do you hate the Yankees? By obligation. Are you biased about your team? We all are, to a certain extent. Where's the reach in my assumptions?

 

I don't agree with your false equivalency, so I'm biased? Sure.

[User Name]

I don't agree with your false equivalency, so I'm biased? Sure.

 

How false is it though, really?

[Emp9]

How false is it though, really?

 

If you haven't put it together by now, I can't help you.

[User Name]

If you haven't put it together by now, I can't help you.

 

I think I've put it together. I just don't think the resulting conclusions are similar. Differences in process perhaps?

[Maxbialystock]

I think Ortiz is relatively clean, but my opinion means nothing. I will continue to rely on the sportswriters who vote on HOF candidates for the final judgment. I think they have so far done a good job of weeding out the worst offenders. Let us not forget that most of those who are losing out on the HOF still made a ton of money made possible in part by the use of PED's.

 

Back to the thread subject. I would like to introduce a simple thought about a "realistic view" of this year's team. And that thought came from others on other threads: this team seems to be running out of steam, some would even call it a "June swoon" because the Sox have a losing record this month. For awhile the problem seemed to be primarily pitching, especially the starters, but lately the lineup also seems to be struggling.

[mvp 78]

I think Ortiz is relatively clean, but my opinion means nothing. I will continue to rely on the sportswriters who vote on HOF candidates for the final judgment. I think they have so far done a good job of weeding out the worst offenders. Let us not forget that most of those who are losing out on the HOF still made a ton of money made possible in part by the use of PED's.

 

Back to the thread subject. I would like to introduce a simple thought about a "realistic view" of this year's team. And that thought came from others on other threads: this team seems to be running out of steam, some would even call it a "June swoon" because the Sox have a losing record this month. For awhile the problem seemed to be primarily pitching, especially the starters, but lately the lineup also seems to be struggling.

 

So why is Bagwell not in the HOF. He's one of the greatest 1b of all time and there have been no stories of him and performance enhancers. People just look at his build and say "HGH." Why wouldn't they say that for Frank Thomas too?

 

At least Piazza had backne...

[sk7326]

I think Ortiz is relatively clean, but my opinion means nothing. I will continue to rely on the sportswriters who vote on HOF candidates for the final judgment. I think they have so far done a good job of weeding out the worst offenders. Let us not forget that most of those who are losing out on the HOF still made a ton of money made possible in part by the use of PED's.

 

Back to the thread subject. I would like to introduce a simple thought about a "realistic view" of this year's team. And that thought came from others on other threads: this team seems to be running out of steam, some would even call it a "June swoon" because the Sox have a losing record this month. For awhile the problem seemed to be primarily pitching, especially the starters, but lately the lineup also seems to be struggling.

 

Oh - could no disagree more. Sportswriters playing morality police - especially since many abetted the stuff in the first place - is the height of hypocrisy and shaming. The Hall has been derelict here giving the writers much too much leeway. There should be a strict rule - no failed test, then you can't talk about them as drug users. You were happy to let Gaylord Perry in. Bagwell is clearly feeling the guilt by association here.

[moonslav59]

I never trust sportswriters for anything.

 

I stopped valuing MVP, Cy Young Gold Glove Awards when the gave (I think it was) Rafael Palmero the GG awards at 1B when he was the DH most of the year.

[Maxbialystock]

Oh - could no disagree more. Sportswriters playing morality police - especially since many abetted the stuff in the first place - is the height of hypocrisy and shaming. The Hall has been derelict here giving the writers much too much leeway. There should be a strict rule - no failed test, then you can't talk about them as drug users. You were happy to let Gaylord Perry in. Bagwell is clearly feeling the guilt by association here.

 

All I said was they have weeded out the worst offenders, which is true. Maybe Bagwell was unfairly grouped with them, I don't know.

[Emp9]

I think I've put it together. I just don't think the resulting conclusions are similar. Differences in process perhaps?

 

While ignorance alone does not absolve a person from a crime or a wrong (ergo, everyone would use ignorance as a defense), conspiracy and premeditation are traditionally much more frowned upon (so much so that they're counted as additional charges) and are weighed much heavier than ignorance, for good reason. Comparing Ortiz to Clemens on this topic is utterly irresponsible. If it came out one day that Ortiz conspired,and premeditated, and was equally as crooked as the rest? Yes. Sure. Without a doubt, I'd use him in the same sentence as Clemens and Co. But until that day, I will consider the astounding lack evidence and continue to rightly call it a false comparison.

[User Name]

While ignorance alone does not absolve a person from a crime or a wrong (ergo, everyone would use ignorance as a defense), conspiracy and premeditation are traditionally much more frowned upon (so much so that they're counted as additional charges) and are weighed much heavier than ignorance, for good reason. Comparing Ortiz to Clemens on this topic is utterly irresponsible. If it came out one day that Ortiz conspired,and premeditated, and was equally as crooked as the rest? Yes. Sure. Without a doubt, I'd use him in the same sentence as Clemens and Co. But until that day, I will consider the astounding lack evidence and continue to rightly call it a false comparison.

 

But Ortiz actually failed a test yet Clemens didn't. Even if it was just a "leaked" report, there is tangible evidence in Ortiz' case that does not exist in Clemens' case. One is clearly more crooked than the other (Clemens threw his wife under the bus), but the fact is that, even if unknowingly, Ortiz used PED's just like Clemens did. For the purposes of this discussion, and the absolutists who brought it on, then they are both to be measured with the same stick.

 

You are making the point I have been trying to make all along. The whole "If he used PED's, get him off my team or don't sign him!" rhetoric is incorrect, as every case is different.

[illinoisredsox]

So why is Bagwell not in the HOF. He's one of the greatest 1b of all time and there have been no stories of him and performance enhancers. People just look at his build and say "HGH." Why wouldn't they say that for Frank Thomas too?

 

At least Piazza had backne...

 

Bagwell will go in next year; he was 15 votes shy last season and has been rising steadily over his time on the ballot.

[mvp 78]

Bagwell will go in next year; he was 15 votes shy last season and has been rising steadily over his time on the ballot.

 

Sure, but he should have been a first ballot guy. Why make him wait a few years?

[illinoisredsox]

Sure, but he should have been a first ballot guy. Why make him wait a few years?

 

When you figure out the why's of HOF balloting, let everyone know.

 

The voters seemed particularly ornery in his first few years, viewing everyone with suspicion; I think it was 2012 or 2013 that nobody got in and at least one other time only one selection. No first timers were selected in those years. I think with the passage of time, some of the older voters moved on and the newer guys were a little less jaundiced in their view.

[Emp9]

But Ortiz actually failed a test yet Clemens didn't. Even if it was just a "leaked" report, there is tangible evidence in Ortiz' case that does not exist in Clemens' case. One is clearly more crooked than the other (Clemens threw his wife under the bus), but the fact is that, even if unknowingly, Ortiz used PED's just like Clemens did. For the purposes of this discussion, and the absolutists who brought it on, then they are both to be measured with the same stick.

 

You are making the point I have been trying to make all along. The whole "If he used PED's, get him off my team or don't sign him!" rhetoric is incorrect, as every case is different.

 

But a "leaked report" from ... some dude ... is not actual, tangible, evidence. It's suspect at best, not to mention inadmissible from the start. No paper trail. No sworn witness testimony. No letter that said he failed or what he tested positive for. No other names were leaked? No, I'm not buying it. Need more input. 12-13 years later, Ortiz hasn't failed one test and the tests keep getting better and better. Surely Ortiz should've failed one by now, no? When does the actual living proof outweigh a rumored and questionable leak?

[User Name]

But a "leaked report" from ... some dude ... is not actual, tangible, evidence. It's suspect at best, not to mention inadmissible from the start. No paper trail. No sworn witness testimony. No letter that said he failed or what he tested positive for. No other names were leaked? No, I'm not buying it. Need more input. 12-13 years later, Ortiz hasn't failed one test and the tests keep getting better and better. Surely Ortiz should've failed one by now, no? When does the actual living proof outweigh a rumored and questionable leak?

 

Ortiz himself confirmed he failed a test in 2003.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/6148200/

 

"Rumored" right?

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

But a "leaked report" from ... some dude ... is not actual, tangible, evidence. It's suspect at best, not to mention inadmissible from the start. No paper trail. No sworn witness testimony. No letter that said he failed or what he tested positive for. No other names were leaked? No, I'm not buying it. Need more input. 12-13 years later, Ortiz hasn't failed one test and the tests keep getting better and better. Surely Ortiz should've failed one by now, no? When does the actual living proof outweigh a rumored and questionable leak?

 

Actually, every name on that list was leaked. He wasn't singled out. Not to mention, if he has been tested as many times as he claims he has it would mean he tested positive for something along the way.

[User Name]

Ortiz confirmed he failed a test himself. There's no further need to justify anything. It came straight out of the horse's mouth.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually, every name on that list was leaked. He wasn't singled out.

 

I think the only complete list of 103 that came out is widely considered to be bogus.

[moonslav59]

Ortiz himself confirmed he failed a test in 2003.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/6148200/

 

"Rumored" right?

 

This pretty much sums it up...

 

Papi:"One, I have already contacted the Players Association to confirm if this report is true. I have just been told that the report is true," Ortiz said in his statement. "Based on the way I have lived my life, I am surprised to learn I tested positive. Two, I will find out what I tested positive for. And, three, based on whatever I learn, I will share this information with my club and the public. You know me -- I will not hide and I will not make excuses."

 

Terry Francona: "We admire his approach to this, which is, he's not going to run from it, he's not going to hide from it," Francona said after the game. "The first thing he needed to find out was whether he indeed tested positive or not, and he confirmed that this afternoon talking to the union. Now he needs to find out what he tested positive for. He needs some time to get some answers and then he's going to stand up and answer every question. I admire that courage."

[Youk Of The Nation]

I honestly think the PED test will not affect Ortiz as badly as Bonds/Clemens for one reason: People like Ortiz. I think that likability plays a larger part than some people are willing to admit in HOF voting, and the fact that Clemens and Bonds are both gigantic douchebags has to count against them in the voting almost as much as the PED cloud surrounding them. Ortiz, on the other hand, has always been beloved by the media for his personality. Just look at how everyone responded to his "This is our f***ing city" speech. I'm not saying the positive test will be dismissed out of hand, but combining his reputation for being a great guy with the fact that his reaction to the positive test wasn't outright lying or ass-covering like the other guys, I'm willing to bet he makes it into the Hall before Bonds or Clemens.

[jacksonianmarch]

But Ortiz actually failed a test yet Clemens didn't. Even if it was just a "leaked" report, there is tangible evidence in Ortiz' case that does not exist in Clemens' case. One is clearly more crooked than the other (Clemens threw his wife under the bus), but the fact is that, even if unknowingly, Ortiz used PED's just like Clemens did. For the purposes of this discussion, and the absolutists who brought it on, then they are both to be measured with the same stick.

 

You are making the point I have been trying to make all along. The whole "If he used PED's, get him off my team or don't sign him!" rhetoric is incorrect, as every case is different.

 

 

You just said my post was the stupidest thing you've ever seen, and then you explained a point that I was basically trying to make. Really?

[User Name]

You just said my post was the stupidest thing you've ever seen, and then you explained a point that I was basically trying to make. Really?

 

Jacko, I love the new version of you, but your reading comprehension is still terrible.

[jacksonianmarch]

Nice comeback. Otherwise known as no comeback. You flip flopped in 2 pages. He failed a test. He cheated. Clemens never failed a test, but we all know he cheated. They are both cheaters, so trying to parse out either one doesn't matter. It's akin to parsing out who between ARod or Tex suck the worst this season. They both suck is the right answer.

[Nick]

Is there a moderator on this board? PED stuff needs its own thread.....can you guys take it outside and duke it out?

[User Name]

Nice comeback. Otherwise known as no comeback. You flip flopped in 2 pages. He failed a test. He cheated. Clemens never failed a test, but we all know he cheated. They are both cheaters, so trying to parse out either one doesn't matter. It's akin to parsing out who between ARod or Tex suck the worst this season. They both suck is the right answer.

 

Jacko, it's really simple:

 

David Ortiz failed a test back in 2003, and has never failed a test again. He's been tested numerous times, and you can essentially, and realistically, chalk it up to drinking a tainted supplement here in donkeyland. Do you know how many times athletes have gotten suspended here from international competition from drinking a tainted supplement? The DR olympic committee has had to take complete control over what supplements people take here. It doesn't matter: Vitamins, cold medicine, it's a mess. And even better, he owned it, and moved on.

 

Clemens f***ing cheated. He never failed a test, but you know he cheated multiple times, and threw his wife and best friend under the bus after receiving steroids multiple times.

 

So subject A failed a test, and didn't even get notified what for because of what can be interpreted as a minor issue. Manny got notified because he was using steroids outright, no tainted supplements. Subject B is a heavy user, shits on other people to save his legacy, and is a class A *******.

 

Seems identical to me!