2016 Starting Rotation

[cp176]

My speculation is this what the Sox got for Lackey is pretty much the best deal they could have gotten. Don't get me wrong, he can pitch, but he hated being here and it appeared that he was going to be a bigger horses ass than normal if the Sox tried to to keep him here. Cut their losses for sure. Wasn't the first time and as we can see right now, pretty good chance that it wont't be the last time.

[a700hitter]

My speculation is this what the Sox got for Lackey is pretty much the best deal they could have gotten. Don't get me wrong, he can pitch, but he hated being here and it appeared that he was going to be a bigger horses ass than normal if the Sox tried to to keep him here. Cut their losses for sure. Wasn't the first time and as we can see right now, pretty good chance that it wont't be the last time.

He did have value regardless of any negative feelings he might have had. He was healthy and throwing well and he was under contract for the following year at the league minimum. He had tremendous value as a trade chip imo. Not only didn't they get anything of value in return. They took on extra payroll. It was a huge whiff by Ben, even if Lackey had started to walk around with a bucket of chicken under one arm while holding a six pack with his other hand.

[Bellhorn04]

It was a huge whiff by Ben, even if Lackey had started to walk around with a bucket of chicken under one arm while holding a six pack with his other hand.

 

I'll give you an LOL for that one.

[cp176]

He did have value regardless of any negative feelings he might have had. He was healthy and throwing well and he was under contract for the following year at the league minimum. He had tremendous value as a trade chip imo. Not only didn't they get anything of value in return. They took on extra payroll. It was a huge whiff by Ben, even if Lackey had started to walk around with a bucket of chicken under one arm while holding a six pack with his other hand.

 

His talent is/was undeniable. I just don't think the fact that he was due to make the league minimum made him as attractive as a target as it probably should have. My guess is that there was no way that he was going to pitch for the league minimum. Everybody else knew it to. Just my guess here, but I think that that alone played a role in how hard anybody was going to go after him. I really would be curious to know what else was out there for us to get.

[mvp 78]

Owens called up for tomorrow.

[Spudboy]

Oh joy.

 

He's giving up walks and is said to not have good fastball control.

 

Lovely.

[a700hitter]

I'll give you an LOL for that one.

Thanks. It's all about fun and laughs for me.

[Northern Star]

So are any of our AAA pitching "prospects" viable longterm answers or just fool's gold?

[cp176]

Owens and Johnson mid to back of rotation guys possibly. really nothing special. Historically they continue to do kind of a s***** job developing their own pitching. Some lower level prospects could be good.

[Northern Star]

Owens and Johnson mid to back of rotation guys possibly. really nothing special. Historically they continue to do kind of a s***** job developing their own pitching. Some lower level prospects could be good.

 

Good times.

[Dojji]

clay Buchholz is rapidly becoming a luxury we can't afford. Price won't be this terrible forever, Porcello's coming around,Wright may regress but it looks like he should be solid even when he does, and we have some youngsters we can work in and out of the rotation until someone sticks, but I don't have any real faith in buchholz to turn a bad season around anymore. I've been done with this guy for years so this probably comes as no particular surprise. Unload him and use the rotation spot to work through our rookie depth. We can probably find someone on waivers who's a better bet to not suck if that fails. Get him out of boston.

[GoSox2016]

clay Buchholz is rapidly becoming a luxury we can't afford. Price won't be this terrible forever, Porcello's coming around,Wright may regress but it looks like he should be solid even when he does, and we have some youngsters we can work in and out of the rotation until someone sticks, but I don't have any real faith in buchholz to turn a bad season around anymore. I've been done with this guy for years so this probably comes as no particular surprise. Unload him and use the rotation spot to work through our rookie depth. We can probably find someone on waivers who's a better bet to not suck if that fails. Get him out of boston.[/QUOT

 

Clay threw a nohitter. I would def not trade him until he gets chance to prove he is done.

[mvp 78]

That was 2007. There have been many pitchers who have thrown no hitters and then disappeared.

[mvp 78]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/history/nohitters

[cp176]

clay Buchholz is rapidly becoming a luxury we can't afford. Price won't be this terrible forever, Porcello's coming around,Wright may regress but it looks like he should be solid even when he does, and we have some youngsters we can work in and out of the rotation until someone sticks, but I don't have any real faith in buchholz to turn a bad season around anymore. I've been done with this guy for years so this probably comes as no particular surprise. Unload him and use the rotation spot to work through our rookie depth. We can probably find someone on waivers who's a better bet to not suck if that fails. Get him out of boston.

 

I have 0 faith in both Buchholz and Kelly as starting pitchers for this team. The question I have dealt with is how much time is a long enough time for each to prove what they are capable of doing. They have both had plenty of time. I would find it much more exciting and entertaining as a fan to go in a different direction whether it is youth or not as opposed to simply sitting and hoping for different results everytime these two jamokes get handed the ball. Give me a reason to watch and have some future hope if we are going to be a .500 team.

[User Name]

What the f*** is a jamoke?

[cp176]

it's old geezer talk for "f***ing peckerhead".

[Station 13]

Clay does not need any more leeway. He has been given so many opportunities, more than anybody in the history of the Red Sox.

 

10 years, 10 bleeping years.

[cp176]

Clay does not need any more leeway. He has been given so many opportunities, more than anybody in the history of the Red Sox.

 

10 years, 10 bleeping years.

 

Normally I think that I would know what you mean by using the word bleeping but the creative energy of the talksox posters is limitless so I am not 100% sure I know what you are saying. lol

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

LOL that anyone is still holding out hope for this guy based on a no-hitter that was thrown when George Bush was in office.

[Kimmi]

Clay threw a nohitter. I would def not trade him until he gets chance to prove he is done.

 

Trading Clay would not be a wise move.

[Thunder]

it's old geezer talk for "f***ing peckerhead".

 

I use that term at least 10 times a day, so excuse me while I go vomit, assuming it really is old geezer talk.

[Kimmi]

FredLynn, I believe it was you who was arguing for Porcello in one of the game threads. I did not get a chance to respond at the time, but I agree with you. I made many of the same arguments at the time he was signed that you did, about him being a #2 pitcher in 2014.

 

Unfortunately, no one agree with me.

 

I contend to this day that his extension was a good deal, if you take your hindsight glasses off.

[a700hitter]

FredLynn, I believe it was you who was arguing for Porcello in one of the game threads. I did not get a chance to respond at the time, but I agree with you. I made many of the same arguments at the time he was signed that you did, about him being a #2 pitcher in 2014.

 

Unfortunately, no one agree with me.

 

I contend to this day that his extension was a good deal, if you take your hindsight glasses off.

The only way to evaluate a deal is in hindsight.

[Kimmi]

The only way to evaluate a deal is in hindsight.

 

Ultimately, yes. But that doesn't change the point about whether a signing was a smart move at the time it happened.

 

And if you're going to evaluate a deal in hindsight, then wait until the end of the deal. We are only 1 month into a 4 year deal.

[FredLynn]

Trading Clay would not be a wise move.

 

Buchholz has a lifetime ERA+ of 110: above average. Like most pitchers, he has had some good years and some bad ones. Meanwhile, we are paying him just $13M this year and assuming they pick up his option for next year, its $13.5M. In today's market, thats a bargain.

[a700hitter]

Ultimately, yes. But that doesn't change the point about whether a signing was a smart move at the time it happened.

 

And if you're going to evaluate a deal in hindsight, then wait until the end of the deal. We are only 1 month into a 4 year deal.

He does have the opportunity to change minds about the deal, but whether a deal is smart cannot be accurately evaluated at the time it was made. Both teams think they made a good deal at the time of the deal. How the players play afterward is the only way to evaluate whether a trade was good or not.

[User Name]

Buchholz has a lifetime ERA+ of 110: above average. Like most pitchers, he has had some good years and some bad ones. Meanwhile, we are paying him just $13M this year and assuming they pick up his option for next year, its $13.5M. In today's market, thats a bargain.

 

The problem with Buchholz isn't generally production (when he's on, he can make juggernaut lineups look silly), it's providing innings. He averages 145 IP since 2012, which is his career high. The contract is not a bargain, but it's not an overpay either. They should, however, have pursued other options when two fifths of the rotation is comprised of notoriously fragile pitchers.

[User Name]

He does have the opportunity to change minds about the deal, but whether a deal is smart cannot be accurately evaluated at the time it was made. Both teams think they made a good deal at the time of the deal. How the players play afterward is the only way to evaluate whether a trade was good or not.

 

So in conclusion, to evaluate whether a deal was good, you need to wait until the contract/team control runs out.

[a700hitter]

So in conclusion, to evaluate whether a deal was good, you need to wait until the contract/team control runs out.

At some point well in advance of the contract running out, it becomes evident what you have acquired. You don't need it to run to conclusion. My point is that saying that a trade which turns out bad was a good trade when it was made doesn't make sense. Both sides think they have made a good deal when they walk away from the table. Otherwise, the trade doesn't get done. The proof is what happens on the field.