2016 Starting Rotation

[a700hitter]

So we trade Swihart when we don't know if Vasquez can come back from the injury. What if V was done, then what do we do?

 

Swihart has a higher ceiling projected as a catcher as there are hopes that he can sure up his defense. And figuring he's only been a catcher for I think 4 years, there's a lot he can learn. Swihart pretty much skipped AAA due to injuries. And if...... if Vasquez can hold down the catching duties while displaying some offense, then Swihart has much time to learn the position in AAA. Then it's a decision between two good options.

 

Don't rush the kid......

 

Swihart was in the top 20 prospects of all of baseball last year as an AA reassigned catcher. That doesn't sound right to me..... I could be wrong...

When and if it becomes evident that Vasquez will be the future at catcher and Swihart will be a backup, Swihart's trade value will plummet. It comes down to how to maximize the asset. That is where the skill comes into play in the FO.

[Kingface]

So we trade Swihart when we don't know if Vasquez can come back from the injury. What if V was done, then what do we do?

 

Swihart has a higher ceiling projected as a catcher as there are hopes that he can sure up his defense. And figuring he's only been a catcher for I think 4 years, there's a lot he can learn. Swihart pretty much skipped AAA due to injuries. And if...... if Vasquez can hold down the catching duties while displaying some offense, then Swihart has much time to learn the position in AAA. Then it's a decision between two good options.

 

Don't rush the kid......

 

Swihart was in the top 20 prospects of all of baseball last year as an AA reassigned catcher. That doesn't sound right to me..... I could be wrong...

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/24

 

He was the #17 ranked prospect in all of baseball after 2014.....and the #1 catching prospect.

 

The pitcher's on the Sox said they love pitching to Vaz......Swihart can't....and WON'T match Vaz behind the plate. Yes....he is better on offesne....not close. But I will take that di in production over what Vaz brings behind the plate. Up the middle defense in MLB is the MOST important defense....C, SS, 2B and CF. Sox have it right now.....don't screw with it. Trade Swihart IF...and ONLY IF he can bring a good pitcher in a larger package.....

[SoxHop]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/24

 

He was the #17 ranked prospect in all of baseball after 2014.....and the #1 catching prospect.

 

The pitcher's on the Sox said they love pitching to Vaz......Swihart can't....and WON'T match Vaz behind the plate. Yes....he is better on offesne....not close. But I will take that di in production over what Vaz brings behind the plate. Up the middle defense in MLB is the MOST important defense....C, SS, 2B and CF. Sox have it right now.....don't screw with it. Trade Swihart IF...and ONLY IF he can bring a good pitcher in a larger package.....

 

I get that Vaz is loved by the pitching staff. He's good, probably phenomenal at that position and it's almost easy to see. But there is a line where his bat has to perform. And there is a line where he has to come back from a major surgery and perform for a year or years to come. We don't know that yet. And the set back last year really hurt us knowing what we have. Maybe patience is the best practice here. I'm agreeing with you that Swihart can get a very good return in a trade. I think it could be even better with some seasoning with him at the position. For all we know he could have been shopped before V went down and didn't yield a return that was worth it. Personally..... I wouldn't trade for a promising catcher.

 

His stock went up in the offense category last year. The guy hit over 300 the second half and he proved himself. He just needs work on defense, which he never had.

 

I think comparing him to Vazquez is a problem. One of them are trade chips and it doesn't matter how much better one is. We win if they are both good players. The one that looks a bit behind gets delt. The other thing is which one is more important to the current pitching staff. We have Vasquez trying to rescue a bunch of struggling pitchers. If we had a staff we were confident in, then maybe Swihart and his not so good behind the plate ability would be ok with him racking 300 at the plate.

 

Yes, we may have missed the boat. But I think we saw some greatness out of a AA player than needs reps.

Edited April 26, 2016 by SoxHop

[SoxnCycles]

His stock may even be higher when he has some time in AAA learning to be a catcher, which he didn't have last year after moving pretty much straight from AA to the roster.

 

Agree. I don't think any GM is going to be fooled into thinking Swihart is a plus defensive catcher because he can hit a little.

 

If he takes this opotunity to work on his catching, to make up for what he missed last year, he could be even more valuable.

[BostonBruinss]

credit to Porcello, he's done a great job so far.

[cp176]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/24

 

He was the #17 ranked prospect in all of baseball after 2014.....and the #1 catching prospect.

 

The pitcher's on the Sox said they love pitching to Vaz......Swihart can't....and WON'T match Vaz behind the plate. Yes....he is better on offesne....not close. But I will take that di in production over what Vaz brings behind the plate. Up the middle defense in MLB is the MOST important defense....C, SS, 2B and CF. Sox have it right now.....don't screw with it. Trade Swihart IF...and ONLY IF he can bring a good pitcher in a larger package.....

 

One thing that no one tends to talk about is what is the hitting ceiling for Vazquez? He could become an adequate or even a good hitter. I like his chances of becoming a good hitter more than I like Swihart's chances of becoming better than an average catcher. It could take years before Swihart becomes the catcher that he might become. If he could help to bring us a solidly good pitcher, it might be the best thing that could happen for us as well as for him.

[mvp 78]

If he hits like he did in 2014, I'll have no complaints.

[Kingface]

If he hits like he did in 2014, I'll have no complaints.

 

Agree. The Sox have right now EXCELLENT up the middle defense which is pretty much the best thing to have in the field. If JBJ and Vaz can hit .240, the runs that they SAVE in the field will more than make up for any possible deficiencies at the plate.

[sk7326]

One thing that no one tends to talk about is what is the hitting ceiling for Vazquez? He could become an adequate or even a good hitter. I like his chances of becoming a good hitter more than I like Swihart's chances of becoming better than an average catcher. It could take years before Swihart becomes the catcher that he might become. If he could help to bring us a solidly good pitcher, it might be the best thing that could happen for us as well as for him.

 

I am fairly optimistic Vasquez won't be striking out in 1/3 of his at-bats. MVP is right that I can accept an empty .310 OBP, Where he is right now is genuinely not good. But it's early.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

The "up the middle defense" is over rated IMO.

 

The Yanks won how many WS with Posada, Jeter, Williams as up the middle defenders?

[sk7326]

So - the Red Sox spent $30M on an ace, and whaddya know? They have one of the league's first 4 game winners. Just like they planned it!

[User Name]

The "up the middle defense" is over rated IMO.

 

The Yanks won how many WS with Posada, Jeter, Williams as up the middle defenders?

 

Posada had a weak arm, but was an above-average pitch framer and excellent game caller. Bernie Williams was a decent CF, and Jeter was an average SS who made all of the routine plays and had a howitzer attached to his right shoulder. Not a shining example of terrible up-the-middle defense in WS winners.

 

Also, using one (albeit mostly incorrect) example doesn't prove that statement. Up-the-middle defense is extremely important. Look at the way moribund pitchers play "up" when they reach the Cardinals organization. Molina gets a lot of the credit, and with good reason. A good caller and framer can prove the difference between winning and losing in tight contests.

 

On the other hand, you can hide a weak SS or CF by surrounding them with good fielders, but how do you hide a weak catcher?

[Kingface]

The "up the middle defense" is over rated IMO.

 

The Yanks won how many WS with Posada, Jeter, Williams as up the middle defenders?

 

Wait........Bernie Williams was a VERY GOOD fielder and won 4 GG's......and Jeter won 5 GG's. Are you saying that they weren't good fielders? Or that they didn't deserve the awards because the media only recognizing NY players??

 

Hmmmmmmmmm........you may be on to something.....

[User Name]

Wait........Bernie Williams was a VERY GOOD fielder and won 4 GG's......and Jeter won 5 GG's. Are you saying that they weren't good fielders? Or that they didn't deserve the awards because the media only recognizing NY players??

 

Hmmmmmmmmm........you may be on to something.....

 

Williams was very good during his prime years, but Jeter never was anything more than average.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I disagree, by almost every defensive metric Jeter was a below to well below fielder, and Posada ranked negative in runs saved for his career I believe.. Williams was maybe average.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

If the media "only recognizes NY players", where are all the Mets' awards?

 

The GG Award is a joke anyway and anyone with the slightest bit of baseball acumen knows this.

[Kingface]

Williams was very good during his prime years, but Jeter never was anything more than average.

 

I agree.......Babe is a diehard Yankee fan so I was ribbing him. In all honesty though.....I think we Sox fans tend to bite too much on the 'Jeter being an average fielder' mantra. The guy played an EXCELLENT SS. Yes.....he did not have good range but any play he could get to....he made..... He had a lot of chances too playing behind a lot of ground ball pitchers. Do I think he deserved 5 GG's? Nope.......but 2 of them he played excellent defense and I feel he was deserving of them.

[SoxHop]

When and if it becomes evident that Vasquez will be the future at catcher and Swihart will be a backup, Swihart's trade value will plummet. It comes down to how to maximize the asset. That is where the skill comes into play in the FO.

 

I missed this yesterday.

 

I'm not sure I agree. Are you saying that because his value to our team will be much less that other teams will have a stronger position in negotiating?

[Slasher9]

FWIW - defense up the middle was less important to a teams success during the Steroids Era.

now that pitchers have a chance again the middle defense is paramount.

[SoxHop]

I have a question for you all. How are you rating Swiharts defensive abilities? There's nothing behind this, I just want to know.

[a700hitter]

I missed this yesterday.

 

I'm not sure I agree. Are you saying that because his value to our team will be much less that other teams will have a stronger position in negotiating?

Yep, that is what I am saying. If our opinion of him is not high enough for him to be anything but our backup it establishes a ceiling for him -- the guy's potential now has a limit that wasn't there before. That could only hurt his value.

[SoxHop]

Yep, that is what I am saying. If our opinion of him is not high enough for him to be anything but our backup it establishes a ceiling for him -- the guy's potential now has a limit that wasn't there before. That could only hurt his value.

 

I never thought of it this way. I have always thought of one of them being a trade chip. In that case it doesn't matter the playing value to the Sox, just the value to other teams.

[SoxHop]

If you own a Ferrari and a Porche, and prefer the Ferarri. It won't make the sale value of the Porche go down.

[Slasher9]

I have a question for you all. How are you rating Swiharts defensive abilities? There's nothing behind this, I just want to know.

 

room to improve. and he will improve. Varitek was still in AA ball at Swihart's age.....

[Dojji]

The guy played an EXCELLENT SS.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k440W-Y8hLc

 

No one but Jeter had the "athleticism" to make a routine ground ball into the hole look like the play of the year. People who know what they're looking for have been lauging at those who overrate Jeter's defense forever. A real shortstop treats half of Jeter's highlight reel as routine plays that aren't worth a second of camera time, because real shortstops have this thing called "range" and don't have to run headling dive jump throw plays just to field their goddamn position.

[Dojji]

I have a question for you all. How are you rating Swiharts defensive abilities? There's nothing behind this, I just want to know.

 

Bad. He's got the tools, but Swihart's problem is that he's not proficient in using them. He just doesn't play like he's used to catching, and for the catching position that's particlarly bad. I think it's safe to say that Swihart's bat is maybe 2 years ahead of his glove, and he'd have to do some learning on the job to become a really proficient catcher. Then again it was also safe to say that about Mike Piazza, so he could still become a great catcher. but it's unlikely this team will invest the MLB playing time to allow him to learn his position on the job, which is a situation his bat has almost forced him into.

 

He'll probably wind up traded to some small market team that can let him develop through some grind years before he needs to really compete at the position. Maybe even wind up a star player for that team. If he stays in Boston though, I honestly think Swihart's days at catcher are numbered and he'll be moved to some other position where they have a major talent gap to take advantage of his advanced offensive approach. The Sox MO so far has been to want to pair a veteran with a young guy, and when it comes to catching, CV is their guy so they'll look for a Hanigan type, or even re-up Hanigan himself, rather than having 2 rookies catching if it can be avoided..

[SoxHop]

room to improve. and he will improve. Varitek was still in AA ball at Swihart's age.....

 

I'm more interested in how you got to that conclusion. Is it what you saw? Is it the pitching performance, are you using stats?

 

I tend to think Swihart may be a sub optimal pitch caller and I don't know why I think that. I was wondering if someone had something behind that thought? Maybe he is a better pitch caller that Vasquez.

[Dojji]

I'm under the impression that the dugout did a lot of the pitch calling for Swihart. Would fit with the narrative of talented but brutally inexperienced for this level of baseball.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

While it's true that ground ball rates have spiked over the last few years, the reports that I have read say that it has more to do with the low strike being called at a higher rate than PED's.

[a700hitter]

If you own a Ferrari and a Porche, and prefer the Ferarri. It won't make the sale value of the Porche go down.

It's not the same thing with prospects. A big part of their value is their potential. A Porsche is a Porsche. It doesn't have the potential to be anything else.