Spring Training game thread: Week of Feb 21

[notin]

45 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

All D , no O players are cheap.  So many things in baseball have changed, except that.  Its for a reason.

Yes, there is a point, where your D is so bad that it prevents you from doing anythig.  Same with pitching and same with offense.  All 3 can sink you.

But run creation matters just as much as run prevention, an 8-7 victory counts just as much as 1-0, and run prevention is split between pitching and defense.  They rob from each other in terms of importance.  A great pitcher gets a lot of strikeouts, or gets weak pop ups or weak grounders or lazy flies (uses strong D less).  A great D gets pitchers out of jams (takes pressure off pitching).  Great pitching diminishes the return of great D and vise-versa.  

Offense is more fun to watch - that much is true.  No game is more frustrating than watching opposing pitchers keep a weak lineup at bat in a game you’re trailing 1-0 or 2-1.

And bad offense can sink a team, like the 2000 Red Sox team that carried 3 pitchers (Pedro, Lowe, Wakefield) having elite seasons without the team going to the postseason.

But in today’s bullpen-driven game, weak starting pitching can snd will overexpose more bullpens - even very good ones - leading to games where the offense simply cannot bail you out.  A weak offense exposes no other facet of a team…

[drewski6]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

Offense is more fun to watch - that much is true.  No game is more frustrating than watching opposing pitchers keep a weak lineup at bat in a game you’re trailing 1-0 or 2-1.

And bad offense can sink a team, like the 2000 Red Sox team that carried 3 pitchers (Pedro, Lowe, Wakefield) having elite seasons without the team going to the postseason.

But in today’s bullpen-driven game, weak starting pitching can snd will overexpose more bullpens - even very good ones - leading to games where the offense simply cannot bail you out.  A weak offense exposes no other facet of a team…

Wait , so now starting pitching, relief pitching, defense, and offense are all of equal importance?  We went from pitching , defense, offense (implied 33% of the game is offense) to separating out RP from SP and now offense is 1 of 4, down to 25% in importance? Should I shut my mouth before it becomes 10% importance? Less?

Regarding what I have bolded - exactly. Offense is always 50%.  It cant be cut into.  Unlike RP whose importance to the team may go down if the starters go deep, or a great defense which would effect the game less if the pitcher is doing his thing and getting k's and lazy flies and soft grounders (plays that you dont need a great D to handle) or even the starting pitching can matter less if they are giving up hard hit balls but D is making good plays behind them or if the bullpen is strong.  These can all cut into each other.

 

[drewski6]

28 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Looks like there will be some Yophery action for you sickos to watch today. 

What happened to the 6'7, 270 lb beast?

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

DHuran put a charge into that one. 

and it was against a lefty.

[notin]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Wait , so now starting pitching, relief pitching, defense, and offense are all of equal importance?  We went from pitching , defense, offense (implied 33% of the game is offense) to separating out RP from SP and now offense is 1 of 4, down to 25% in importance? Should I shut my mouth before it becomes 10% importance? Less?

Regarding what I have bolded - exactly. Offense is always 50%.  It cant be cut into.  Unlike RP whose importance to the team may go down if the starters go deep, or a great defense which would effect the game less if the pitcher is doing his thing and getting k's and lazy flies and soft grounders (plays that you dont need a great D to handle) or even the starting pitching can matter less if they are giving up hard hit balls but D is making good plays behind them or if the bullpen is strong.  These can all cut into each other.

 

Think of it this way.

A bad rotation can destroy a good bullpen.   A weak bottom of the lineup can weaken the top of the lineup, but not destroy it…

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, notin said:

Think of it this way.

A bad rotation can destroy a good bullpen.   A weak bottom of the lineup can weaken the top of the lineup, but not destroy it…

Think of it this way

A good rotation will leave less innings for a bad bullpen.  A good bullpen can keep you in games if the starters bomb.  Good starters and good relievers can make things easy for a defense (if the 27 outs are pop-ups, weak grounders, lazy flies, k's). A good defense can save the bacon for a starting pitcher or a reliever.

But if you cant offense, you arent going to score.

[drewski6]

Just now, drewski6 said:

Think of it this way

A good rotation will leave less innings for a bad bullpen.  A good bullpen can keep you in games if the starters bomb.  Good starters and good relievers can make things easy for a defense (if the 27 outs are pop-ups, weak grounders, lazy flies, k's). A good defense can save the bacon for a starting pitcher or a reliever.

But if you cant offense, you arent going to score.

And im including bunting and small - balling to be part of offense.  If you want to parse out small-ball stuff then you have

HItting + small ball stuff (bunting, stealing, sacrificing) = pitching + defense

[drewski6]

In order to win low scoring games you need great starters because it cant be over before it begins. And you need like 4 of them, maybe even 5 because if you are going with the pitching and D model at the expense of offense you cant have 2/5 games be auto-Ls.  But we also need a great bullpen because cant blow games. So need to focus resources there.  Oh but we also need a great D, because the pitching wont matter if dudes are giving extra outs all day.  So we need to focus and improve all 3.

Or you could just build a team through the O.

Its like trying to win a super bowl without a great QB.  You need one of the best defenses of all time. You need great pass rushers, you need elite secondary, you need amazing linebackers. You also need great special teams, and a great RB. You need phenomenal coaching.  

Or you can just get a QB.

The path of least resistance to building a winning ballclub is through the bats.  They are more important than anything else individually but maybe not collectively. By that I mean hitting > starting pitching, hitting > relief pitching, hitting > defense....But hitting < starting pitching + relief pitching + defense.....But hitting + small ball stuff = starting pitching + relief pitching + defense

I do like the fact that we will have elite pitching. I think we are the fourth best team in baseball.  But I go crazy when I read that the only we didnt make that we should have was we shoulda traded Duran.  Last year, we gave away our extra base hits champ (devers).  People wanna do that again this year?  Are we just going to keep taking from the O until theres nothing to take?

Joe Brady said that he thinks Duran is the #2 CF in baseball and the most electrifying player in baseball but would trade him (right now) for a #2 starter because that would push Oviedo out of the rotation and into the pen and thats a trade worth making.
 

I undertand that rooting for hitting and power is noob stuff. Ive seen the "chicks dig the longball" commercial too.  And saying "I know offense is fun" is patronizing but we'll let that go. Im just saying enough is enough with the pulling and taking and deprioritizing of the offense.  Enough is enough with the Duran is extra talk. He just crushed a moon shot off a lefty.  Hes probably , at this point in time, the most important to our teams success. If not #1 , hes top 3 behind Crochet and Anthony.  

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

I agree that defense should not be ignored. Im saying not every positional change is to improve the defense.  Sometimes its to fit in another quality bat.

I get that, but once you get a quality bat, it makes sense to fit him in where it best fits the defense.

Story>SS (back then), Bogey > 3B & Devers >1B

ARod > SS & Jeter to 2B

2025:

Devers>1B & Casas >DH

[Old Red]

45 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I get that, but once you get a quality bat, it makes sense to fit him in where it best fits the defense.

Story>SS (back then), Bogey > 3B & Devers >1B

ARod > SS & Jeter to 2B

2025:

Devers>1B & Casas >DH

And none of it happened. Cora must be such a bad manager, because he very RARELY does any of your suggestions. Like it, or not, or for better, or worse team seniority has meaning in most cases like it, or not.

[Old Red]

3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Of course the move was made for the bat, but that doesn't mean the defense should be ignored.

I felt thew same about not moving Bogey to 2B, when we go Story, but maybe Story's arm was not ready for SS. Ideally, that would have been the time to move Bogey to 3B and Devers to 1B. That's a way better defense.

Way too many moves unnecessarily. Once again Cora didn’t see it that way, and just like now when Cora said Story is THE SS.

[Old Red]

4 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Agreed, but I wonder if they even bothered to ask the princess.

Princess Jeter.🤭

[jad]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

And im including bunting and small - balling to be part of offense.  If you want to parse out small-ball stuff then you have

HItting + small ball stuff (bunting, stealing, sacrificing) = pitching + defense

Small-ball would really have turned todays game around.

[drewski6]

18 minutes ago, jad said:

Small-ball would really have turned todays game around.

I think its coming back, and I would like to see it come back more. Everything in cycles, you can be so old-school that you wind up new-school because things come around again.

Things like moving runners over , stealing, sacrificing....they went a bit out of style back in the early 2000s because it was such a hitter's era.  So the last thing you wanted to do was bail them out because teams had so many hitters.  So you'd run less because whats the point, the dude behind you is going to smoke a double and probably the dude behind him too.  OBP was king because just get on base, "keep the line moving".  So things like trade an out to advance the base-runner, sacrficing, stealing.....the juice wasnt worth the squeeze.

But things change, then change again, and then change some more.  And now in this era, you can now longer count on those guys behind you. So getting on base at any cost is out.  Doing everything you can to avoid making an out (e.g. selling out for contact, not stealing, not sacrificing)...That kind of stuff which was new school for early 2000s is kind of old school today.  Because then , in an offense era it was , we're gonna score - dont force it and dont give up free outs, just trust the guys coming up.  But now its more about capitalizing on opportunities because there are a lot more 3-2 games these days, so if you hit a leadoff double, and you bunt him over, then sac-fly him home.....Or draw a walk, steal 2nd, get into scoring position so any hit brings you home.....This kind of stuff, risking outs or sacrificing outs for a run here and there suddenly becomes worth it again.....Its a downstream effect from the game reverting from hitting dominated to pitching dominated over the last few years.  So what was new in the moneyball era is old now and things that were considered dated philosophies in the moneyball era are back in style.  Like run manufacturing aka small ball.

[JoeBrady]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

Joe Brady said that he thinks Duran is the #2 CF in baseball and the most electrifying player in baseball but would trade him (right now) for a #2 starter because that would push Oviedo out of the rotation and into the pen and thats a trade worth making.

Actually, what I said is that I'd make that argument in arbitration.  The RS, presumably, will argue that he is a mediocre fielder at a very easy position (LF at Fenway).  So I would make the counter argument that that fact has nothing to do with Duran's value.  Duran is not playing LF because he couldn't handle CF.  He is playing LF because the RS have a platinum glove in CF.

I also think I think more l/t than some in here.  So being much better 4-5-6 years from now is a lot more important than being slightly better in the next 1-2-3 years.

[JoeBrady]

29 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Things like moving runners over , stealing, sacrificing....they went a bit out of style back in the early 2000s because it was such a hitter's era.

It went out of style because Tito rejected it.  We went from 24 sacs to 12 sacs.  And went from 35 CS to 30 to 12.  That's not to say that these cannot be used, but that they should be used in limited context.

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Old Red said:

And none of it happened. Cora must be such a bad manager, because he very RARELY does any of your suggestions. Like it, or not, or for better, or worse team seniority has meaning in most cases like it, or not.

Weird that you'd call him a bad manager for not doing what you didn't want him to do, anyway, but nothing surprises me with you.

🤪

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Old Red said:

Way too many moves unnecessarily. Once again Cora didn’t see it that way, and just like now when Cora said Story is THE SS.

I'm fine with Story at SS.

[jad]

15 hours ago, drewski6 said:

I think its coming back, and I would like to see it come back more. Everything in cycles, you can be so old-school that you wind up new-school because things come around again.

Things like moving runners over , stealing, sacrificing....they went a bit out of style back in the early 2000s because it was such a hitter's era.  So the last thing you wanted to do was bail them out because teams had so many hitters.  So you'd run less because whats the point, the dude behind you is going to smoke a double and probably the dude behind him too.  OBP was king because just get on base, "keep the line moving".  So things like trade an out to advance the base-runner, sacrficing, stealing.....the juice wasnt worth the squeeze.

But things change, then change again, and then change some more.  And now in this era, you can now longer count on those guys behind you. So getting on base at any cost is out.  Doing everything you can to avoid making an out (e.g. selling out for contact, not stealing, not sacrificing)...That kind of stuff which was new school for early 2000s is kind of old school today.  Because then , in an offense era it was , we're gonna score - dont force it and dont give up free outs, just trust the guys coming up.  But now its more about capitalizing on opportunities because there are a lot more 3-2 games these days, so if you hit a leadoff double, and you bunt him over, then sac-fly him home.....Or draw a walk, steal 2nd, get into scoring position so any hit brings you home.....This kind of stuff, risking outs or sacrificing outs for a run here and there suddenly becomes worth it again.....Its a downstream effect from the game reverting from hitting dominated to pitching dominated over the last few years.  So what was new in the moneyball era is old now and things that were considered dated philosophies in the moneyball era are back in style.  Like run manufacturing aka small ball.

small ball, blessedly, is not coming back.  Because not enough fans want to see it.   There's nothing quite as meh as watching a bunch of guys take a third strike.  We don't need baseball to become soccer.

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, jad said:

small ball, blessedly, is not coming back.  Because not enough fans want to see it.   There's nothing quite as meh as watching a bunch of guys take a third strike.  We don't need baseball to become soccer.

there is a reason baseball was so popular (and exciting) during the steroid era.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

there is a reason baseball was so popular (and exciting) during the steroid era.

Because we could watch vicariously and not have to inflate our own organs to the point of failure!

I remember seeing a local guy substitute teaching one winter, a few years after he went pro. He was so swollen I hoped he didn't get too close to a bulletin board, lest a thumb tack send him flying through the air into the Nethersphere.

Nobody is excited about small ball, but if the Red Sox want to win rings, they'd better get it right this time.

Like, why aren't they forcing Rafaela to mix in a sac bunt in Spring Training -- instead of waiting for the freaking playoffs again for him to square around and poke at a sweeper in the dirt of the lefty batter's box again? Arrgh.

[JoeBrady]

10 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

there is a reason baseball was so popular (and exciting) during the steroid era.

But no team is going to stray away from small ball because it is more or less exciting.  BB is a sport created by and for accountants.  If the spreadsheet says to bunt, you bunt.  And apropos of nothing, but I think BB fans get excited by any good play, in any sport.

[notin]

16 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

Actually, what I said is that I'd make that argument in arbitration.  The RS, presumably, will argue that he is a mediocre fielder at a very easy position (LF at Fenway).  So I would make the counter argument that that fact has nothing to do with Duran's value.  Duran is not playing LF because he couldn't handle CF.  He is playing LF because the RS have a platinum glove in CF.

I also think I think more l/t than some in here.  So being much better 4-5-6 years from now is a lot more important than being slightly better in the next 1-2-3 years.

I’m not so sure about that.  
 

Duran has repeatedly shown he’s a defensive question mark.  If he was even an above average defensive CF, they could ship Rafaela off for a hard-hitting exit velocity left fielder.  

Duran is in LF because it’s where his inconsistent defensive abilities are least detrimental…

[JoeBrady]

3 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

why aren't they forcing Rafaela to mix in a sac bunt in Spring Training

Some of this stuff drives me crazy.  Every LH minor league hitter should be able to drop a mediocre bunt down the 3rd base line for a single.  You have 3Bs lining up at the SS position because they have no fear of you bunting.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

But no team is going to stray away from small ball because it is more or less exciting.  BB is a sport created by and for accountants.  If the spreadsheet says to bunt, you bunt.  And apropos of nothing, but I think BB fans get excited by any good play, in any sport.

Teams strayed away from small ball because it’s less effective.  Nothing to do with entertainment value.  Just like how teams prefer ground ball pitchers because they’re more effective, and not because groundouts are so exciting…

[notin]

2 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

Some of this stuff drives me crazy.  Every LH minor league hitter should be able to drop a mediocre bunt down the 3rd base line for a single.  You have 3Bs lining up at the SS position because they have no fear of you bunting.

But he talked about sac bunting, which is different than bunting for a single…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

But he talked about sac bunting, which is different than bunting for a single…

It's true, and what drives me crazy the most in extra innings when there's a Ghost on 2nd or 3rd and I yell "TOUCH the ball!"

It's ok if they don't want to sac bunt, but at least choke up and put a ball on the damn ground, preferably to the right side. 

I know, easier said than done, but not if athletes with elite hand-eye actually practice it. Bregman did, and we assume Durbin does because he doesn't strike out -- but all pros need to be able to execute a basic function of being a batter. If they want to win...

[JoeBrady]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Duran is in LF because it’s where his inconsistent defensive abilities are least detrimental…

But as his agent, my argument is that he should be compared to CFs, since he has shown that ability.  Since we are in combine season, it's like asking the tweener players you represent to line up with groups that get paid better.

[notin]

19 hours ago, drewski6 said:

Think of it this way

A good rotation will leave less innings for a bad bullpen.  A good bullpen can keep you in games if the starters bomb.  Good starters and good relievers can make things easy for a defense (if the 27 outs are pop-ups, weak grounders, lazy flies, k's). A good defense can save the bacon for a starting pitcher or a reliever.

But if you cant offense, you arent going to score.

Of course you are.  Maybe not as much as some fans like, but all you need to do is score more times than your opponent.  Sort of the simple essence of any sport (except darts)…

[notin]

3 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

It's true, and what drives me crazy the most in extra innings when there's a Ghost on 2nd or 3rd and I yell "TOUCH the ball!"

It's ok if they don't want to sac bunt, but at least choke up and put a ball on the damn ground, preferably to the right side. 

I know, easier said than done, but not if athletes with elite hand-eye actually practice it. Bregman did, and we assume Durbin does because he doesn't strike out -- but all pros need to be able to execute a basic function of being a batter. If they want to win...

Much easier said than done.  “Just hit the ball” when half the #4 starters in the league can throw 95mph for multiple innings is a taller order than we think.  And some of those bullpen guys specialize in limiting contact…