Third Baseman Ketel Marte Is On the Boston Red Sox's Radar

[notin]

35 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Exactly. It’s to early to tell if they are going to be any good, or not, or even more should be untouchable.

Disagree.

Some prospects you have to have enough faith in to keep around in today’s game.  It gets much easier to afford the Garrett Crochet’s and Pete Alonso’s of the league if you have some minimum wage contributors also on the roster…

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, FredLynn said:

I would be shocked if we got Marte OR Alonso OR Schwarber. I think the most likely scenario is that Bregman is resigned and they call it a day.

I'm beginning to wonder if he's too expensive, too.

I'm thinking the Mets might sign Bregman, and we get Alonso or Okamoto.

[moonslav59]

I don't like using the word "untouchable," as everyone should be traded for a better return.

I do think holding onto Tolle and early is a high priority and should be. They don't seem like other highly ranked pitchers the Sox have had in the past who almost all fizzled out- at least for a decade or more.

We started seeing some signs of life with Houck & Bello and to a lesser extent with Crawford & Dobbins, and it makes a lot of sense to hang onto these two kids. The way pitching costs have skyrocketed, the value of guys like Crawford, Harrison and Dobbins, when added to a package headlined by Duran or Campbell should be enough to get what we need.

[Old Red]

19 minutes ago, notin said:

Well since that didn’t work 60 years ago, clearly it should be the path forever…

OMG! You telling me that it’s changed today that after 35 combined innings of two pitches that you can tell already if they are going to be any good, or not? 🙈👋

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I don't like using the word "untouchable," as everyone should be traded for a better return.

Due to the high cost of pitching around the league, I think it makes sense to hold onto the high ceiling guys like Tolle and Early considering the cost/control. It's why I'm also hesitant to move Witherspoon right now without seeing him. 

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Due to the high cost of pitching around the league, I think it makes sense to hold onto the high ceiling guys like Tolle and Early considering the cost/control. It's why I'm also hesitant to move Witherspoon right now without seeing him. 

I get that, but just, because they are cheap doesn’t mean they are going to be that good. I believe that’s why Houck, and Whit were put into the rotation when they did, and why despite Whit kept getting injured they kept him in the rotation, because he was a cheap option.

[JoeBrady]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

NO they are not Lester, or anything close after 35 innings.

Not what Lester was as a prospect, or not what Lester became as a pro?  Early has clearly out-performed Lester as a 1st year pro.

[Duran Is The Man]

31 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if he's too expensive, too.

I'm thinking the Mets might sign Bregman, and we get Alonso or Okamoto.

i was pretty high on Bregman last year but the Mets can have him. he's not worth the cost to me. i'd rather have ALonso.

[mvp 78]

7 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I get that, but just, because they are cheap doesn’t mean they are going to be that good. I believe that’s why Houck, and Whit were put into the rotation when they did, and why despite Whit kept getting injured they kept him in the rotation, because he was a cheap option.

Houck and Whitlock were two of their best arms. You want your best arms pitching in as many innings as possible. Whitlock wasn't starting because he was cheap, but because he had a starter's frame and repertoire. He's making more money because of his extension than if he was getting an ARB. 

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Houck and Whitlock were two of their best arms. You want your best arms pitching in as many innings as possible. Whitlock wasn't starting because he was cheap, but because he had a starter's frame and repertoire. He's making more money because of his extension than if he was getting an ARB. 

Whitlock has an arm for a late inning BP guy, which is where I said he should have stayed after the 2021 season. Bard also should have stayed in the BP. Not all good arms are meant to be starters. Unless you’re Hicks of course.

[moonslav59]

33 minutes ago, Old Red said:

OMG! You telling me that it’s changed today that after 35 combined innings of two pitches that you can tell already if they are going to be any good, or not? 🙈👋

Sounds like you are writing them off after just 35 IP.

[moonslav59]

28 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Due to the high cost of pitching around the league, I think it makes sense to hold onto the high ceiling guys like Tolle and Early considering the cost/control. It's why I'm also hesitant to move Witherspoon right now without seeing him. 

Agreed, and even if 2 of those 3 amount to squat, if one does great, it's probably worth not trading any of the 3.

[mvp 78]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

Agreed, and even if 2 of those 3 amount to squat, if one does great, it's probably worth not trading any of the 3.

I suspect that's what the Sox are thinking as well. 

[drewski6]

49 minutes ago, notin said:

Disagree.

Some prospects you have to have enough faith in to keep around in today’s game.  It gets much easier to afford the Garrett Crochet’s and Pete Alonso’s of the league if you have some minimum wage contributors also on the roster…

To expand, we shouldnt need a large sample of results to assess these kids.  Its not like their value is "?" until they show you what they are. We have scouts/coaches/baseball scientists if you will/ we are supposed to have the baseball minds in the world.  Or among the best.

You have to trust the calls of the people you pay to make such calls.  They should be able to look at 20 different prospects and grade out which ones have the highest likelihood of becoming stars , which ones will be useful but not stars, which ones are unlikely to stick in the majors.  The scouts wont be right 100% of the time, but if they are right more than wrong , you trust them.  And if they are wrong more than right, you can em.  But to act like every prospect without a body of work in the MLB is on equal footing is just not true.

Gotta be willing to stick your neck out there.  Gotta be willing to be wrong.  Gotta be able to assign value to each prospect and keep/flip them accordinly without the benefit of the results.  Anybody can look at a body of work and parse the good results from the bad ones.

[moonslav59]

13 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

i was pretty high on Bregman last year but the Mets can have him. he's not worth the cost to me. i'd rather have ALonso.

I think so, too.

We probably get neither, which I'm okay with, if we get KMarte and maybe Suarez or Polanco or trade for Lodolo, Ryan or ___.

[JoeBrady]

34 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I don't like using the word "untouchable," as everyone should be traded for a better return.

Spot-on correct.  Keeping or trading good pitching prospects because you are hoping they become Lester, or fear they will become Gabbard, is silly, imo.  No one knows.  The best approach is to put a future value on them, and trade them on that basis.  If PT thinks Early is a #2, and we think his ceiling is a #3, then we trade him.  If we think Tolle will be a #2, and Cincy pegs as a #3/4, then we don't trade him.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

I suspect that's what the Sox are thinking as well. 

It's pretty sound thinking, IMO. I might add Perales to the list. The guy can pitch!

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Sounds like you are writing them off after just 35 IP.

How is to early to tell writing them off? You guys get all excited about any Suspect that shows any kind of life in the Minors. I on the other hand to not until say it with me now until they produce in a Big league uniform, or are traded for someone who does.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, JoeBrady said:

Spot-on correct.  Keeping or trading good pitching prospects because you are hoping they become Lester, or fear they will become Gabbard, is silly, imo.  No one knows.  The best approach is to put a future value on them, and trade them on that basis.  If PT thinks Early is a #2, and we think his ceiling is a #3, then we trade him.  If we think Tolle will be a #2, and Cincy pegs as a #3/4, then we don't trade him.

When you fill a high need area via a trade, then you don't really care that much how the guy you gave up did.

HanRam did great after the trade, but Beckett won us a ring, and Lowell shocked us a bit- in a good way. Hell, Anibal Sanchez turned out to be pretty good, too, but I could have cared less.

You gotta give to get. I'm fine with giving, but the get has to be worth it.

I'm fine with the Gray trade, as I think he's better than Crawford, Dobbins and Harrison. He might be better than all three combined, but I had hoped we got a co-ace or solid #2. I see his fWAR projects are as a #2, but I'm not so certain with a 36 year old showing decline over 2 years.

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's pretty sound thinking, IMO. I might add Perales to the list. The guy can pitch!

I haven't really seen what he looks like since TJS. I have him well behind the other guys due his upcoming 40 man issues. Not much development time left for him! 

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if he's too expensive, too.

I'm thinking the Mets might sign Bregman, and we get Alonso or Okamoto.

Marte would be a great addition. Too expensive? What about all that money Henry saved by trading Devers?

[notin]

58 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Due to the high cost of pitching around the league, I think it makes sense to hold onto the high ceiling guys like Tolle and Early considering the cost/control. It's why I'm also hesitant to move Witherspoon right now without seeing him. 

Exactly…

[notin]

31 minutes ago, Old Red said:

How is to early to tell writing them off? You guys get all excited about any Suspect that shows any kind of life in the Minors. I on the other hand to not until say it with me now until they produce in a Big league uniform, or are traded for someone who does.

Again, the Sox need minimum wage contributors because they cannot afford a team with 26 players making $15mill or more apiece.

They can’t wait until these players establish enough proof of talent if it takes well into their arbitration years.

The Sox absolutely should be unloading a few prospects IMO.  But Tolle and Early are very likely needed this year.  Password, on the other hand, is probably completely expendable…

[notin]

12 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Marte would be a great addition. Too expensive? What about all that money Henry saved by trading Devers?

What about it?

[moonslav59]

52 minutes ago, Old Red said:

How is to early to tell writing them off? You guys get all excited about any Suspect that shows any kind of life in the Minors. I on the other hand to not until say it with me now until they produce in a Big league uniform, or are traded for someone who does.

It's just as early to say these guys should not be traded as it is to say they should be traded.

It's literally the exact same time.

Call it "early" or whatever you want.

 

[moonslav59]

50 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I haven't really seen what he looks like since TJS. I have him well behind the other guys due his upcoming 40 man issues. Not much development time left for him! 

If he looks like he's progressing, there will be room on the 40 for him. It will only be an issue if he gets hurt or struggles most of the year.

[moonslav59]

34 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Marte would be a great addition. Too expensive? What about all that money Henry saved by trading Devers?

I'm just trying to be realistic. I'm not defending JH. I just said, "Wake up, JH!" about spending for this "open window."

We should be able to add K Marte, Alonso and maybe a Merrill Kelly on a 1-2 year deal.

[Hugh2]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

I get that, but just, because they are cheap doesn’t mean they are going to be that good. I believe that’s why Houck, and Whit were put into the rotation when they did, and why despite Whit kept getting injured they kept him in the rotation, because he was a cheap option.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Whitlock looked pretty darn good as a starter before he got hurt, if he worked out as a starter he would have been 1000% more valuable. 

He had an injury before and missed time, this is why he was available for the taking from the NYY.  

The Sox were right to try, his case is not all to different that another Red Sox pitcher who moved into the reliever role after an injury and his team decided to move him back into the rotation despite concerns.  His name Is Garrett Crochet.  If the White Sox went that route, he wouldn't be an ACE right now and probably wouldn't even be on our team. 

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Whitlock looked pretty darn good as a starter before he got hurt, if he worked out as a starter he would have been 1000% more valuable. 

He had an injury before and missed time, this is why he was available for the taking from the NYY.  

I can't fault the Sox for trying him as a SP'er. Those who blame the injury on being a SP'er are speculating.

In 2022, GW started 9 games in a row with a 4.15 ERA and 1.26 WHIP (.723 OPS Against.) He was not really that good, and his last game before going on the IL hurt his number (4 ER in 4 IP.) His first 8 starts: 

3.60 ERA/ 3.57 FIP

33K and 9 BB in 35 IP

In 2023, he struggled in both roles.

5.23 as SP (.841 OPSA)

4.95 as RP (.784)

[Old Red]

24 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's just as early to say these guys should not be traded as it is to say they should be traded.

It's literally the exact same time.

Call it "early" or whatever you want.

 

It may be early for you, but not for me, because as I’ve said before pretty much no one is untouchable to me, and that’s not the same.