A Realistic View at 2024: Part III

[Bellhorn04]

Hate to beat the dead horse, but trading Sale was a disastrous blunder that ended up sinking the whole season.   

You're not supposed to trade from an area of need.  It was stupid and the stupidity was punished.

 

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Hate to beat the dead horse, but trading Sale was a disastrous blunder that ended up sinking the whole season.   

You're not supposed to trade from an area of need.  It was stupid and the stupidity was punished.

 

Well, they also NEEDED a 2B. It was just a trade that didn't work out. High risk, high reward. We got the high risk without the reward.

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Well, they also NEEDED a 2B. It was just a trade that didn't work out. High risk, high reward. We got the high risk without the reward.

They got a prospect. And there were other ways to get a 2B.

They needed starting pitching more.  Everyone agreed that was the biggest need.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't remember anyone saying "We really need starting pitching, but not as much as a second base prospect!"

[Bellhorn04]

And they proved that they're just flat out stupid or incredibly cheap by doing nothing when Giolito went down.

Credit to Houck, Crawford and Bello for making nearly all their starts and pitching as well as you could expect given their talent levels.  They kept it from being even more of a debacle than it could have been. 

 

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They got a prospect. And there were other ways to get a 2B.

They needed starting pitching more.  Everyone agreed that was the biggest need.

I'm not trying to justify the trade or say that I would have done the trade myself. We all knew the risks when the trade went down. We all knew what the prior few years looked like with Sale. This was the worst possible outcome for a first year GM/CBO. 

[Old Red]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Well, they also NEEDED a 2B. It was just a trade that didn't work out. High risk, high reward. We got the high risk without the reward.

They needed a SS too when Story went down, so maybe they should have traded Houck, or Whit, or some other pitcher to get one.

[mvp 78]

Just now, Old Red said:

They needed a SS too when Story went down, so maybe they should have traded Houck, or Whit, or some other pitcher to get one.

I'd be fine with them trading Whitlock. He's not a starter going forward.

[moonslav59]

8 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

i'll be the first to disagree. losing sucks and the Sox are making a habit of it thanks to John "Scrooge" Henry and the brown-nosing morons in his front office.  if (and i don't expect it to happ;en) they don't add any pitching this winter, it will be more of the same next year. The Curse of Mookie lives on.

I think losing sucks, too, so I'm not sure we disagree on that.

Did you really not have fun watching the games, this year, at least some of the time? Half the time?

Some games were really fun, until the pen imploded. Do those games not count as being partially fun to watch?

[Bellhorn04]

They did something they didn't need to do, probably motivated by the tight budget, and they got burnt to a crisp for it, deservedly so.    

 

[mvp 78]

Does someone here think a bullpen arm is more important than SS? 

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

They did something they didn't need to do, probably motivated by the tight budget, and they got burnt to a crisp for it, deservedly so.    

 

I agree.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, Old Red said:

They needed a SS too when Story went down, so maybe they should have traded Houck, or Whit, or some other pitcher to get one.

Yeah, funny how they keep going with makeshift solutions at SS, but they really really needed that 2B, even if he was just a prospect. 

[mvp 78]

Does someone here think Whitlock should be in the rotation next year? If so, speak up!

[moonslav59]

46 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Couldn't at least half the league make the same claim?

Indeed, but here is where I think we differ:

1. We have some very valuable everyday players and or prospects we can trade for one or two, without opening a gaping hole in the line-up.

2. Even if JH skimps on the winter budget, we should have more money to spend than most of those teams you were referring to.

I'm not saying we do it. I'm just saying we have the resources to do it. (Hell, we have the resources to add 3.)

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, funny how they keep going with makeshift solutions at SS, but they really really needed that 2B, even if he was just a prospect. 

Harder to do in season trades IMO. Once Hamilton got going a little bit, it eased some of the pressure as well. It's clear that they punted on the season once Giolito went down and didn't really make any serious moves after that. They are just waiting on internal solutions that may or may not develop. 

[mvp 78]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

Indeed, but here is where I think we differ:

1. We have some very valuable everyday players and or prospects we can trade for one or two, without opening a gaping hole in the line-up.

2. Even if JH skimps on the winter budget, we should have more money to spend than most of those teams you were referring to.

I'm not saying we do it. I'm just saying we have the resources to do it. (Hell, we have the resources to add 3.)

We always say two or three and it's always only one decent starter IF THAT. I don't have high hopes that a good outside starter is coming this offseason. I think Henry has turned the faucet to a trickle. Sox are now a midmarket team with top tier pricing. 

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Does someone here think Whitlock should be in the rotation next year? If so, speak up!

The only people who whose opinion matters is Brez, Bailey & JH & Co.

I doubt anyone here thinks Whit should start in '25. Hardly any wanted it, this year.

Our need for good pen arms gives us another good reason to make it happen, once and for all.

[moonslav59]

It is a bit scary to think we may very well pin a big chunk of our hopes on Story at SS, one more time.

Sure, Mayer offers better depth than we've had since Bogey & Story were here and thought to be healthy, but Mayer is part of the Frequent IL Club, too.

If Story and Mayer can just work out a schedule, where only one is on the IL, at the same time, maybe we can cobble together a full season of plus-plus SS play.

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

We always say two or three and it's always only one decent starter IF THAT. I don't have high hopes that a good outside starter is coming this offseason. I think Henry has turned the faucet to a trickle. Sox are now a midmarket team with top tier pricing. 

I don't have high hopes, at all, but I will continue suggesting what I think is essential for us to become a serious contender (add 2-3 solid pitchers) or a serious WC contender (1-2 solid pitchers added.)

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

The only people who whose opinion matters is Brez, Bailey & JH & Co.

I doubt anyone here thinks Whit should start in '25. Hardly any wanted it, this year.

Our need for good pen arms gives us another good reason to make it happen, once and for all.

He looked great in ST and had 4 really good starts. Unfortunately, his health is a very big determining factor. 

[Bellhorn04]

9 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

The only people who whose opinion matters is Brez, Bailey & JH & Co.

I doubt anyone here thinks Whit should start in '25. Hardly any wanted it, this year.

Our need for good pen arms gives us another good reason to make it happen, once and for all.

Yeah, I'm not going to invest any mental energy in Whitlock's role.  They're going to do what they're going to do.    

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I don't have high hopes, at all, but I will continue suggesting what I think is essential for us to become a serious contender (add 2-3 solid pitchers) or a serious WC contender (1-2 solid pitchers added.)

It's just not going to be 2 unless they are also dealing a current rotation pitcher. 

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

He looked great in ST and had 4 really good starts. Unfortunately, his health is a very big determining factor. 

He looked like a Cy Young candidate after 4 starts, but it's never been about his pitching skills. 

When he is "on," he has some of the nastiest stuff in MLB.

It's about his durability and health.

[moonslav59]

14 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

It's just not going to be 2 unless they are also dealing a current rotation pitcher. 

I'd say the odds are against adding even even solid 1 SP and 1 solid RP. At best, maybe 2 solid RP'ers, one being a lefty might be peak expectation.

In my opinion, at minimum, we need a 1-2 slot SP'er and 2 solid RP'ers (one being a closer type or one of the best set-up men in the game.)

[Hugh2]

17 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, I'm not going to invest any mental energy in Whitlock's role.  They're going to do what they're going to do.    

We have all seen how good Whitlock can be when he's healthy. 

Kind of like Chris Sale from 2020-2023 for 4 years. 

Maybe he too will have a career year in 2025.  Or we can trade him for an infielder

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They got a prospect. And there were other ways to get a 2B.

They needed starting pitching more.  Everyone agreed that was the biggest need.

Wasn’t part of the reason they needed pitching due to Sale’s inability to repeatedly take the mound?

If Sale pitched like this in 2021, 2022 and 2023, would the Sox still have needed pitching?

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

It's just not going to be 2 unless they are also dealing a current rotation pitcher. 

And if history is any judge, injuries will not impact that number, either…

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, I'm not going to invest any mental energy in Whitlock's role.  They're going to do what they're going to do.    

And you shouldn’t.

 

It would be hypocritical to say “they should have learned their lesson with Whitlock” interspersed with “there was no lesson to be learned with Sale.”

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, notin said:

And you shouldn’t.

 

It would be hypocritical to say “they should have learned their lesson with Whitlock” interspersed with “there was no lesson to be learned with Sale.”

Sale and Whitlock are totally different cases, as most players are.  If you're into that kind of reductionism, fine, but don't try to lay it on me.