Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Duran Is The Man]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It can be a list longer than the amount of years we have followed the Sox.

it all started over a hundred years ago...

1920: Frazee selling Babe Ruth to the Yankees.

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Sadly, it does seem to be "the way of the world." The blame game is as old as mankind.

1978: Mike Torrez & Bucky Freakin' Dent

1986: McNamara leaving Buckner in

2003: Grady (Did you watch the Netflix series, where Theo said, "Can we fire him, now?")

2012: Bobby V & Beergate

2015: Ben signing Pablito & HRam (not Scherzer)

2019: Restgate

These are but a few from many...

If you're blaming 86 on Buckner, you don't know ball. 

[moonslav59]

48 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

If you're blaming 86 on Buckner, you don't know ball. 

I clearly blamed McNamara by name.

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I clearly blamed McNamara by name.

Right, it's just that a lot of people don't seem to realize the score had already been tied by the time the ball was hit to Buckner. 

The real problem was that McNamara didn't pinch hit Baylor for Buckner against Orosco with the bases loaded in the 8th. 

 

[mvp 78]

17 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I clearly blamed McNamara by name.

McNamara leaving Buckner in...

Even if McNamara put Stapleton in, they still lose. 

[mvp 78]

10 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Right, it's just that a lot of people don't seem to realize the score had already been tied by the time the ball was hit to Buckner. 

The real problem was that McNamara didn't pinch hit Baylor for Buckner against Orosco with the bases loaded in the 8th. 

 

The wild pitch/passed ball from the Steamer is the problem IMO. 

[Bellhorn04]

12 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The wild pitch/passed ball from the Steamer is the problem IMO. 

Chains of events.  If Schiraldi gets Carter out, Steamer and Buckner are lifting the trophy instead of wearing goat horns. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

18 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Right, it's just that a lot of people don't seem to realize the score had already been tied by the time the ball was hit to Buckner. 

The real problem was that McNamara didn't pinch hit Baylor for Buckner against Orosco with the bases loaded in the 8th. 

 

Why would you ever want to pinch-hit for the worst batter of that October, a hobbling-wounded guy whose legs were so shot he couldn't push off either to drive the ball? 

And why would anyone want to take crippled Buckner out of the heart of the order, batting third behind Boggs (best hitter in baseball) and Barrett (.400 in the postseason)?

And why on earth would a manager use his team home run leader to pinch hit in a big spot? Even though only five players in the league socked more than Baylor's 31 HRs, he hadn't cranked a clutch longball since the 9th inning in Game 5 of the ALCS... 

[notin]

17 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

i wouldn't have blamed them if we had adequate pitching depth, but we didn't. and still don't. 

It looks like they just sort of quit after Giolito went down.  They still had 5 SPs lined up, but one of them was the notoriously fragile Whitlock…

[mvp 78]

16 minutes ago, notin said:

It looks like they just sort of quit after Giolito went down.  They still had 5 SPs lined up, but one of them was the notoriously fragile Whitlock…

The notoriously fragile Whitlock who pitched really great while he was healthy. It was fun while it lasted. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Right, it's just that a lot of people don't seem to realize the score had already been tied by the time the ball was hit to Buckner. 

The real problem was that McNamara didn't pinch hit Baylor for Buckner against Orosco with the bases loaded in the 8th. 

 

I like that analysis.  A game isn’t just one play.

 

The true worst part of game six was it was such a letdown after coming so close that when Carter was up, the broadcast cut to the CF scoreboard saying “Congratulations Boston Red Sox.  1986 World Series Champions”, it still made all of game seven feel like a loss.  Even up three runs in the sixth, the whole game was impending doom…

[notin]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The notoriously fragile Whitlock who pitched really great while he was healthy. It was fun while it lasted. 

I classify Whitlock in the same category as Sale, Eovaldi and Wacha - their issues are not related to talent…

[Bellhorn04]

10 minutes ago, notin said:

I classify Whitlock in the same category as Sale, Eovaldi and Wacha - their issues are not related to talent…

Wacha has exceeded 124 innings in each of the last 5 full seasons, averaging 135.9.  The way things are now, he might be a lot closer to the top in innings pitched over that period than you think!  

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, notin said:

I classify Whitlock in the same category as Sale, Eovaldi and Wacha - their issues are not related to talent…

And if they kept Sale on and he got injured here, we could have said "what was the plan there?!?!?" 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

McNamara leaving Buckner in...

Even if McNamara put Stapleton in, they still lose. 

Hard to know, for sure.

How are you so sure?

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Hard to know, for sure.

How are you so sure?

My ouija board told me. 

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

My ouija board told me. 

Anyway, it's not about whether or not someone caused the loss, only about people blaming someone for losing.

Clearly, they did on that one.

[notin]

30 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

My ouija board told me. 

They might still lose.  But they certainly don’t win in that inning.

[Bellhorn04]

54 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

And if they kept Sale on and he got injured here, we could have said "what was the plan there?!?!?" 

OTOH no one is ripping them because Whitlock and Story got injured again.  The usual grumbling that Whitlock should be in the pen, of course. 

[moonslav59]

40 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OTOH no one is ripping them because Whitlock and Story got injured again.  The usual grumbling that Whitlock should be in the pen, of course. 

True, but the grumbling on Sale was that we didn't add enough pitchers every season because "the plan" was that he'd be healthy, and he never was... until we traded him.

Then, he does well, and we hear, "See, he was looking healthy in 2023, near the end, so we should have planned on him to pitch for us." 

I do agree: we should have planned on Whitlock in the pen and Sale as our SP, with others as depth.

 

[Bellhorn04]

8 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

True, but the grumbling on Sale was that we didn't add enough pitchers every season because "the plan" was that he'd be healthy, and he never was... until we traded him.

Did Bloom ever actually say anything about that being the plan and the reason he signed nothing but cheap short-term starters?

It could easily have been part of a different plan - the scrimp and punt plan.   

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OTOH no one is ripping them because Whitlock and Story got injured again.  The usual grumbling that Whitlock should be in the pen, of course. 

If they traded Whitlock, he would have been All Star somewhere else. 😖

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Did Bloom ever actually say anything about that being the plan and the reason he signed nothing but cheap short-term starters?

It could easily have been part of a different plan - the scrimp and punt plan.   

I'm assuming the lack of pitching additions was based on a tight budget, and the belief that we "had enough," already, and probably Sale was part of the plan, when he looked okay over the winter.

[Bellhorn04]

35 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm assuming the lack of pitching additions was based on a tight budget, and the belief that we "had enough," already, and probably Sale was part of the plan, when he looked okay over the winter.

To me a realistic plan with post-2019 Sale would have been to view him as a wild card until he proved otherwise, not as the presumed anchor of the rotation.

I don't even like the word "plan" that much with some of this stuff.  A large % of baseball players are very unpredictable from year to year.  Teams need all sorts of backup plans, if they expect to be successful. 

Look at Texas in 2023.  Their Hall of Fame candidates, Scherzer and deGrom, were virtually useless, and it was Eovaldi and Montgomery who really delivered, especially in the postseason.   

[Bellhorn04]

And Eovaldi really is a guy they should have re-signed.  But they have been absolute tightwads with free agent pitchers.  They wouldn't beat the Cubs $53 million for Imanaga, for God's sake.  What has become of us?    We're talking cheapskates here, folks, let's be real about it. 😛   

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And Eovaldi really is a guy they should have re-signed.  But they have been absolute tightwads with free agent pitchers.  They wouldn't beat the Cubs $53 million for Imanaga, for God's sake.  What has become of us?    We're talking cheapskates here, folks, let's be real about it. 😛   

To those posters who are about to type how grateful they are to John Henry for bringing them World Series winners over half-a-decade or more ago, I say this: 

I loved my first wife and have no regrets over the relationship we once had. But it sure didn't end well.

Do they ever?

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

To me a realistic plan with post-2019 Sale would have been to view him as a wild card until he proved otherwise, not as the presumed anchor of the rotation.

I don't even like the word "plan" that much with some of this stuff.  A large % of baseball players are very unpredictable from year to year.  Teams need all sorts of backup plans, if they expect to be successful. 

Look at Texas in 2023.  Their Hall of Fame candidates, Scherzer and deGrom, were virtually useless, and it was Eovaldi and Montgomery who really delivered, especially in the postseason.   

The "plan" might be set something like this: we have 4 pitchers who should give us 25+ starts and 2 that are 50-50 at giving us that. That comes to 5 starters, and have some extended depth on top, and let's roll.

I remember before 2023 saying, maybe count Paxton and Sale as one starter and 30 GS, between them. They gave us 39, and we still came up short on our rotation. (Kluber+Whitlock only got 19 GS between them.)

In 2022, I remember thinking Wacha and Hill were injury prone, but they ended up 2nd and 3rd on the team in GS with 26 & 23. (Nate+Whitlock=29)

This year, we doubted how good Gio would be, but most expected 25+ GS, unless he sucked and was demoted. Injury was not expected. The Whitlock injury was more or less expected, but man, just 4 GS- and good ones, at that. We did get 26 GS from 4 guys, including Houck, who some felt was going to be the 6th starter.

33 Crawford, 30 Houck & Bello, 26 Pivetta, the team GS leader since 2021. Criswell got 18 starts, and the team went 12-6 in those.

In 2021, all 5 of our expected starters had 22 or more GS, and Houck took up the slack with 13 GS and the best ERA of the top 6 SP'er at 3.52. (Sale started 9 at 3.16) 159 games started by 7 guys. It's no co-inkidink we went to the ALCS.

 

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And Eovaldi really is a guy they should have re-signed.  But they have been absolute tightwads with free agent pitchers.  They wouldn't beat the Cubs $53 million for Imanaga, for God's sake.  What has become of us?    We're talking cheapskates here, folks, let's be real about it. 😛   

Not many of us mentioned wanting Imanaga or Lugo.

It seemed like Sonny Gray or Monty seemed like the faves by those who knew we were never getting Yamo.

Hell, had we just signed Stroman or Flaherty, instead of Gio, we'd have likely snuck into the dance.

[Duran Is The Man]

7 hours ago, notin said:

It looks like they just sort of quit after Giolito went down.  They still had 5 SPs lined up, but one of them was the notoriously fragile Whitlock…

a pitching foundation built on quicksand.

[moonslav59]

15 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

a pitching foundation built on quicksand.

The Criswell Quicksand Theory