Chris Sale traded to Braves

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

9 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The Criswell Quicksand Theory

We're not crazy, we're just a little criswell.

[Bellhorn04]

12 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Not many of us mentioned wanting Imanaga or Lugo.

It seemed like Sonny Gray or Monty seemed like the faves by those who knew we were never getting Yamo.

Hell, had we just signed Stroman or Flaherty, instead of Gio, we'd have likely snuck into the dance.

I'm picking on imanaga because the Sox were actually in on the bidding for him according to the reports but wouldn't go beyond a 2 year 26 million offer.

https://bosoxinjection.com/posts/report-reveals-infuriating-reason-red-sox-didnt-sign-shota-imanaga-this-offseason-01hwk36pfhbr#:~:text=The Red Sox didn't,million offer to the pitcher.

[moonslav59]

25 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm picking on imanaga because the Sox were actually in on the bidding with him according to the reports but wouldn't go beyond a 2 year 26 million offer.

https://bosoxinjection.com/posts/report-reveals-infuriating-reason-red-sox-didnt-sign-shota-imanaga-this-offseason-01hwk36pfhbr#:~:text=The Red Sox didn't,million offer to the pitcher.

Yes, and last winter there really were not a lot of reported "interest" in others. The Yamamoto interest was a total sham from day 1.

I thought Imanaga and Lugo would have been much better deals that Gio, both before and after their signings. I also liked Wacha and Sonny, but Monty was high on my list, too, so nobody is perfect.

It's interesting to look at out largest pitcher contracts since the Sale and Nate deals:

$55M/6 Bello ext

$38.5M/2 Giolito

$32M/2 Jansen

$18.8/2 Barnes ext (later traded away)

$18.8M/4 Whitlock ext

$17.5M/2 Martin  (Before the Bello ext & Gio signing, the top 4 were RP'ers)

$10M/1 Richards

$10M/1 Kluber

$10M/2 Paxton

$10M/2 Hendriks

$8.5M/1 Ottavino (trade)

$8M/2 Diekman (later traded away)

$7M/1 Wacha

$6M/1 Perez '20

$5M/1 Perez '21

$5M/1 Hill

$3M/1 Strahm

Arbs:

$8.3 ERod '20 (did not pitch)

$8.3M ERod '21

$7.5M Pivetta '24

$5.4 Pivetta '23

[moonslav59]

39 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm picking on imanaga because the Sox were actually in on the bidding with him according to the reports but wouldn't go beyond a 2 year 26 million offer.

https://bosoxinjection.com/posts/report-reveals-infuriating-reason-red-sox-didnt-sign-shota-imanaga-this-offseason-01hwk36pfhbr#:~:text=The Red Sox didn't,million offer to the pitcher.

Yes, and last winter there really were not a lot of reported "interest" in others. The Yamamoto interest was a total sham from day 1.

I thought Imanaga and Lugo would have been much better deals that Gio, both before and after their signings. I also liked Wacha and Sonny, but Monty was high on my list, too, so nobody is perfect.

It's interesting to look at out largest pitcher contracts since the Sale and Nate deals:

$55M/6 Bello ext

$38.5M/2 Giolito

$32M/2 Jansen

$18.8/2 Barnes ext (later traded away)

$18.8M/4 Whitlock ext

$17.5M/2 Martin  (Before the Bello ext & Gio signing, the top 4 were RP'ers)

$10M/1 Richards

$10M/1 Kluber

$10M/2 Paxton

$10M/2 Hendriks

$8.5M/1 Ottavino (trade)

$8M/2 Diekman (later traded away)

$7M/1 Wacha

$6M/1 Perez '20

$5M/1 Perez '21

$5M/1 Hill

$3M/1 Strahm

Arbs:

$8.3 ERod '20 (did not pitch)

$8.3M ERod '21

$7.5M Pivetta '24

$5.4 Pivetta '23

The Sale+Nate deals were almost as much as the top 10 deals, in 5 years combined ('20-'24.)

 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Yes, and last winter there really were not a lot of reported "interest" in others. The Yamamoto interest was a total sham from day 1.

I thought Imanaga and Lugo would have been much better deals that Gio, both before and after their signings. I also liked Wacha and Sonny, but Monty was high on my list, too, so nobody is perfect.

It's interesting to look at out largest pitcher contracts since the Sale and Nate deals:

$55M/6 Bello ext

$38.5M/2 Giolito

$32M/2 Jansen

$18.8/2 Barnes ext (later traded away)

$18.8M/4 Whitlock ext

$17.5M/2 Martin  (Before the Bello ext & Gio signing, the top 4 were RP'ers)

$10M/1 Richards

$10M/1 Kluber

$10M/2 Paxton

$10M/2 Hendriks

$8.5M/1 Ottavino (trade)

$8M/2 Diekman (later traded away)

$7M/1 Wacha

$6M/1 Perez '20

$5M/1 Perez '21

$5M/1 Hill

$3M/1 Strahm

Arbs:

$8.3 ERod '20 (did not pitch)

$8.3M ERod '21

$7.5M Pivetta '24

$5.4 Pivetta '23

"Interesting" is one way to put it.

For starting pitchers, Giolito's 38.5 mill leads the way in total investment by light years!

Second place is a tie at 10 mill!

It's how they roll in this brave new Red Sox world.

[mvp 78]

18 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Anyway, it's not about whether or not someone caused the loss, only about people blaming someone for losing.

Clearly, they did on that one.

Schiraldi and Stanley can never be forgiven.

[mvp 78]

15 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And Eovaldi really is a guy they should have re-signed.  But they have been absolute tightwads with free agent pitchers.  They wouldn't beat the Cubs $53 million for Imanaga, for God's sake.  What has become of us?    We're talking cheapskates here, folks, let's be real about it. 😛   

And then we're left to question is it an evaluation issue or a $$$ issue? 

[Bellhorn04]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Schiraldi and Stanley can never be forgiven.

I forgive Schiraldi absolutely.  He threw 55 pitches in that game.  And he was throwing strikes in the 10th, the Mets just managed to get knocks off them. 

Poor Stanley, he was instrumental in both the 1978 playoff game and in this one.  

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

And then we're left to question is it an evaluation issue or a $$$ issue? 

I think it's a combination of the two with a lean toward the $$$.

In all the rumors and innuendo last offseason I read one quote from an unnamed executive that suggested the Red Sox were "looking for the perfect deal", which kind of made sense when you look at what happened and didn't happen. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

11 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

For starting pitchers, Giolito's 38.5 mill leads the way in total investment by light years!

Can't you see the true strategy in this investment? He was just at Dodger Stadium, sitting with Fried to watch Flaherty. 

The latter two are free agents this winter. Breslow is a genius. He's bringing the old high school rotation back together.

As an incentive, Henry just has to sell all his Fenway property and move the club to California. There's a vacancy at the old Oakland Mausoleum -- where pitchers love its acres of foul territory.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I forgive Schiraldi absolutely.  He threw 55 pitches in that game.  And he was throwing strikes in the 10th, the Mets just managed to get knocks off them. 

Poor Stanley, he was instrumental in both the 1978 playoff game and in this one.  

If they didn't trade Ojeda, we wouldn't have had that Schiraldi bum. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Can't you see the true strategy in this investment? He was just at Dodger Stadium, sitting with Fried to watch Flaherty. 

The latter two are free agents this winter. Breslow is a genius. He's bringing the old high school rotation back together.

Yes, I read about this too.  If they do sign Fried some forgiveness will be bestowed.

But what's funny is that even if we do, Giolito isn't really guaranteed to be with the Red Sox for very long.  

 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I think it's a combination of the two with a lean toward the $$$.

In all the rumors and innuendo last offseason I read one quote from an unnamed executive that suggested the Red Sox were "looking for the perfect deal", which kind of made sense when you look at what happened and didn't happen. 

Did the Sox make him an offer and Imanaga chose the Cubs instead or am I misremembering? 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

If they didn't trade Ojeda, we wouldn't have had that Schiraldi bum. 

They've never learned their lesson about not trading lefty starters.

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Yes, I read about this too.  If they do sign Fried some forgiveness will be bestowed.

But what's funny is that even if we do, Giolito isn't really guaranteed to be with the Red Sox for very long.  

 

Gio also wanted them to sign Clevinger last offseason. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

Did the Sox make him an offer and Imanaga chose the Cubs instead or am I misremembering? 

He chose the Cubs 53 million over the Sox 26 million.  Tough call, not. 

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

He chose the Cubs 53 million over the Sox 26 million.  Tough call, not. 

They must have seen him as a 6th starter/bullpen guy with that contract. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

Gio also wanted them to sign Clevinger last offseason. 

There are some bad jokes available there.

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

There are some bad jokes available there.

I'll allow them to sign Clevinger if they also sign Flaherty and Fried. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

There are some bad jokes available there.

They could rent MSG and piss off NYC... damn, it's booked.

[Bellhorn04]

9 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

They could rent MSG and piss off NYC... damn, it's booked.

We'll let that stand but please no followups by anyone.

[mvp 78]

10 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

They could rent MSG and piss off NYC... damn, it's booked.

It hasn't been the same ever since they took it out of my ramen. 

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

"Interesting" is one way to put it.

For starting pitchers, Giolito's 38.5 mill leads the way in total investment by light years!

Second place is a tie at 10 mill!

It's how they roll in this brave new Red Sox world.

To me, investing in the rotation, or lack of doing so, is the true measure of how much a team is "in it to win it mode." I'm not sure they ever felt the "rebuild" would be 5-6+ years long, and they'll never admit this is what it was, but the spending on SP'ers over that time is the give-away. It's one thing, if you have a great starting 5 or 6, and you don't invest more, but from 2019 on, it was clearly one of our biggest, if not THE biggest weak area on the team.

We could have done better with the money spent, as $10M is not really chump change, but we largely got what we paid for, and our fascination with signing pitchers coming off injuries was a major mistake in planning. I think the idea was that we could stay close to playoff contention as we rebuilt, and we kinds did, at times, but we fell way short of what fans wanted, and I think somewhat short of what JH & Co. expected with the budgets they handed out (2020 not included.) We should have done better, even with the limited winter budgets.I still maintain that the success of the 2021 team only emboldened JH into thinking the plan of winning, while not spending a lot, is possible and very attractive to his bulging wallet. 

Here is a look at the major contracts handed out, starting in 2018, when we already had Prices $217M/7 deal on the books, as well as HRam, Pablito, Porcello, Kimbrel and Pedey.

Notice how the winter additions were not all that grand, the first 2 years listed, here:

2018: $110M/5 JD, $13M/2 Moreland

2019: $68M/3 Nate -just re-signing a current player as was $6.2M/1 for Pearce, and we let Kimbrel & Kelly go with no replacements.

Many seem to think the budget restrictions started under Bloom, but actual winter spending on outside players was very limited from 2018-2019. The Sale & Bogey extensions, that kicked in year 2020 was more of the same. The budget went up, so much, due to arb raises and big raises on extensions to Nate & Sale.

Some of the biggest contracts handed out after 2019 look like more than 2018-2019, but these signings don't show all the departing players, many with big contracts that were not replaced, in kind:

2020: $145M/5 Sale extension, $120M/6 Bogey ext (opt out,) $6M Perez,  $4.5M Pillar, 

2021: $10M/1 Richards, $8.5M Ottavino (trade,) $14M/2 Kike, $5M/1 Perez, $3.1M/1 Renfroe, $3M/1 Marwin (The AAV is more than the AAV given to new players in 2018 and 2019 combined!)

2022: $140M/6 Story, $18.8M/2 Barnes extension, $7M/1 Wacha, $10M/2 Paxton, $5M/1 Hill, $8M/2 Diekman, $3M/1 Strahm (This winter was no chump change winter, but other than Story, it was spread pretty thin, out of necessity, due to a shallow 40 man roster.)

2023: $90M/5 Yoshida (+ posting fee,) $32M/2 Jansen, $14M/1 Turner, $10M Kike, $10M Kluber, $17.5M/2 Martin, $7M Duvall, $18.8M/4 Whitlock ext,  $3M Mondesi (Again, not really chump change, but when you lose the talent we lost, along the way, these guys pale in comparison.)

2024: $313M/10 Devers ext, $38.5M/2 Gio, $5.9M O'Neill (trade) $10M/2 Hendriks (Bello and Rafaela ext) The Devers deal blows away other winter spending, by itself.

2025: TBD

[notin]

4 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Gio also wanted them to sign Clevinger last offseason. 

Half the players in the league recommend players to their CBO. Many of them are not GMs for a reason…

[mvp 78]

33 minutes ago, notin said:

Half the players in the league recommend players to their CBO. Many of them are not GMs for a reason…

Pedro did recommend David Ortiz to Theo and Larry. Why did he never get a front office gig? Too busy sleeping under the mango tree? 🥭

[notin]

3 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Pedro did recommend David Ortiz to Theo and Larry. Why did he never get a front office gig? Too busy sleeping under the mango tree? 🥭

His deal with MLBN is much sweeter.  What’s his biggest pressure?  Picking a questionable necktie?

[Randy Red Sox]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:33 PM, moonslav59 said:

Not many of us mentioned wanting Imanaga or Lugo.

It seemed like Sonny Gray or Monty seemed like the faves by those who knew we were never getting Yamo.

Hell, had we just signed Stroman or Flaherty, instead of Gio, we'd have likely snuck into the dance.

you still want to sign Flaherty???

[moonslav59]

22 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

you still want to sign Flaherty???

Sure. I'm thinking he'd be our #2.

He might be the guy we can get for the budget.

[Randy Red Sox]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Sure. I'm thinking he'd be our #2.

He might be the guy we can get for the budget.

he is a 4-5 guy at best.  

[moonslav59]

18 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

he is a 4-5 guy at best.  

Your idea of a 4-5 makes it look like there are zero 2's and 3's. To say "at best" makes it even worse. It's like you see him as a 6th SP.

How many pitchers are #1's?

I'd say about 30.

#2's? about 30 (one for each team)

#3s? yup, 30 more.

You are saying there are 90-120 better SP'ers than Flaherty?

I'd say you are way off.

Of the 125+ Pitchers with 120+ IP, Flaherty placed:

17th WHIP

22nd in FIP and ERA

24th in ERA-

29th i fWAR

Can you name even 60 pitchers better than him?

He's a #2, at worst.

Okay, okay, 2024 was a fluke, you say: how about 2021 to 2024 (130+ pitchers with 300+ IP) Flaherty places...

63rd ERA and 73rd in FIP (about a #3)

64th ERA- (top #3)

77th in fWAR (about a #3)

I'm fine thinking he's a good #3 with #2 upside. He's not a 4/5.