A Realistic View at 2024: Part I

[mvp 78]

And there is two sides to the changes in the game. Certainly the expanded wild cards make it easier to make the postseason, but also the 5 team divisions make it easier to come in last.

 

Ignoring 2020, three of the Sox remaining recent last place finishes involved teams winning 78 games. The previous stretch also included several 78 game winners, not one of whom came in last..,

 

They are closer to a postseason birth! But still far away from a WS title. How far? It depends on PLAYER DEVELOPMENT and PLAYER ACQUISITION.

[Bellhorn04]

How are we defining 3rd richest?

 

Market value and gross revenue.

[moonslav59]

Are you saying that you would take any number of 10 year stretches in which the Sox win a ring in 1 year and finish last in the other 9?

 

That's about the floor of my possible acceptance, but if I lived it, I might amend it to 4-6 years not 9.

 

Through the 70's and 80's, I often said to my fellow Sox fans, "I'd take 10 last place finished for just one ring." After 2004, I got spoiled.

 

My position is probably close rto 4-5 last place finishes followed by a ring, rinse and repeat, but there is a caveat: I'd want to see and feel the growth of the team and farm over those 5 years to keep the flame of hope alive.

 

If those 5 last place finishes were 50-60 win seasons, I'd likely change my tune.

 

[moonslav59]

I am unhappy when we lose. I don't think I'm any less unhappy than others. Not ranting and raving about unhappiness, does not mean it is not there at the same levels of those who do.

 

It sucks losing. One can hate it but still feel hope that the future looks brighter.

 

One can hate it and think our future does not look brighter.

 

One can hate it and not care about what the future looks like.

 

I might have missed some other positions, or some may feel between some of those I listed.

 

I guess, I'd be more angry, if I felt the team was going nowhere or in decline.

 

I'm not sure another ring season is in the near future, but I am hopeful we will get relevant again.

[Duran Is The Man]

To me, I'm okay with some down years, as long as the future keeps looking brighter, but there is a certain amount of time, where it becomes unbearable. That time seems to vary widely between fans.

 

To me, time is up. We better compete in 2024, or at least make a legitimate effort. The farm is where we want it to be. We can afford to trade some top prospects and still be plus.

 

We have some young and capable payers on the 26 and 40, who should provide a nice framework of a foundation for Brez to build up and fill in the holes. To me, it's all about the winter budget and if we go for quality over quantity.

 

i hate seeing the Sox finishing last no matter how many recent championships they have, but the rings do lessen the "pain" a bit. what particularly pisses me off is JH firing a GM that had taken the team from two consecutive last place finishes in 14 & 15, wins 3 straight ALEast titles, has an off year and finishes 3rd and replaces him with a dithering f***ing moron that finishes last in 20, 22 and 23. f***ing idiocy on Henry's part. i'm not going to bash Brez but he'd best add some quality pitching or it's going to be ANOTHER last place finish next year.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It wasn't over analyzing, it was answering the question. 5GGGGG said he was happier before the WS than 04-23 and would have been a happier fan if they hadn't won a WS, but continued to have a higher Win %. I wouldn't.

 

I answered the question. It just wasn't appreciated HOW I answered the question.

 

Here's HOW you answered -- you completely made s*** up, because I never said I'd be happier if the Sox didn't win a WS.

 

I directly responded to the two eras Bellhorn posted -- when the Sox had winning teams 87% of the time (including rings in '04 and '07) and 50% of the time IN THE PAST DOZEN YEARS -- and said for me PERSONALLY I was a happier fan in those decades when Boston didn't have a losing record half the time, like they have since 2012.

 

I referenced '67-'03 because it was a time without a world championship, to show how a fan can NOT be elite -- compared to the past dozen years from Bell's post (and not '04-23, that you assumed) -- and said for me PERSONALLY I was happier rooting for a club that has winning seasons 87% of the time compared to a span of only 50%.

 

You could have just given your opinion, and talked sox, like others have... instead of taking words out of context and pasting them onto your own conclusions about one poster you've decided to group with being part of a "crowd" or "people" because of "all that crap."

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Honestly, I think the more recent years where the highs offset the lows and the current postseason alignment allows for better chances to get in. I remember plenty of years where Sox winning teams had no chance at the postseason and were instead relegated to “Yankees’ inferior little brothers.” The 2022 and 2023 teams both had actual shots at the postseason if the CBO didn’t flail away fruitlessly at the deadlines.

 

And outside of 2020, which we knew was a step back, even the Sox last place teams have mostly hovered around .500. Not like we have seen any of them as unwatchable as a 55 win team. What does an 84 win 3rd place team that misses the postseason do that a 78 win last place team doesn’t, besides win one more game per month?

 

Honest answer, thanks. Making the postseason is always a goal -- can't win if you don't play -- and wild cards win it all sometimes. But this Sox team the past year, even if they squeaked in, was still one of the thinnest, mismatched globs of one-tool fools that I can ever remember rooting for (and that's a memory that spans at least four summers).

 

Going back to your comparison of the '79 Sox, I can honestly say I had more fun cheering for a 91-club loaded with All-Stars, including the best player in baseball that year, that led the majors in team home runs, batting average and OPS. Compared to rooting for Chris Martin...

 

Meanwhile, the M's just traded Kelenic and are letting Oscar walk... sounds like a team in need of at least one decent outfielder. Maybe a club with a surplus can pry a pitcher loose...

[mvp 78]

i hate seeing the Sox finishing last no matter how many recent championships they have, but the rings do lessen the "pain" a bit. what particularly pisses me off is JH firing a GM that had taken the team from two consecutive last place finishes in 14 & 15, wins 3 straight ALEast titles, has an off year and finishes 3rd and replaces him with a dithering f***ing moron that finishes last in 20, 22 and 23. f***ing idiocy on Henry's part. i'm not going to bash Brez but he'd best add some quality pitching or it's going to be ANOTHER last place finish next year.

 

DD should have been given the opportunity to clean up the mess. Maybe he didn't want to work under the constraints Henry listed and it was more mutual than we first believed?

[Nick]

I am unhappy when we lose. I don't think I'm any less unhappy than others. Not ranting and raving about unhappiness, does not mean it is not there at the same levels of those who do.

 

It sucks losing. One can hate it but still feel hope that the future looks brighter.

 

One can hate it and think our future does not look brighter.

 

One can hate it and not care about what the future looks like.

 

I might have missed some other positions, or some may feel between some of those I listed.

 

I guess, I'd be more angry, if I felt the team was going nowhere or in decline.

 

I'm not sure another ring season is in the near future, but I am hopeful we will get relevant again.

 

I try to watch every game Bello starts. That's what gets me excited.

 

Wong

Casas

Devers

Duran

Rafaela

Abreu

Bello

Houck

Whitlock

 

And I'm perfectly okay players above getting 'replaced' by better talent.

 

Go get 2 top of the line starters.....

 

I will judge the new 'regime' by one thing. Produce in-house starters. Trade top young positional players for top young starting pitchers.

[mvp 78]

Here's HOW you answered -- you completely made s*** up, because I never said I'd be happier if the Sox didn't win a WS.

 

I directly responded to the two eras Bellhorn posted -- when the Sox had winning teams 87% of the time (including rings in '04 and '07) and 50% of the time IN THE PAST DOZEN YEARS -- and said for me PERSONALLY I was a happier fan in those decades when Boston didn't have a losing record half the time, like they have since 2012.

 

I referenced '67-'03 because it was a time without a world championship, to show how a fan can NOT be elite -- compared to the past dozen years from Bell's post (and not '04-23, that you assumed) -- and said for me PERSONALLY I was happier rooting for a club that has winning seasons 87% of the time compared to a span of only 50%.

 

You could have just given your opinion, and talked sox, like others have... instead of taking words out of context and pasting them onto your own conclusions about one poster you've decided to group with being part of a "crowd" or "people" because of "all that crap."

 

Per your post, you were happier back when they weren't winning championships. Therefore, you'd still be happier if they had never won in comparison to how you feel during the recent rollercoaster. If that's not true, then you should be happier with the recent rollercoaster than when they were always coming up short because of some made up curse.

[moonslav59]

i hate seeing the Sox finishing last no matter how many recent championships they have, but the rings do lessen the "pain" a bit. what particularly pisses me off is JH firing a GM that had taken the team from two consecutive last place finishes in 14 & 15, wins 3 straight ALEast titles, has an off year and finishes 3rd and replaces him with a dithering f***ing moron that finishes last in 20, 22 and 23. f***ing idiocy on Henry's part. i'm not going to bash Brez but he'd best add some quality pitching or it's going to be ANOTHER last place finish next year.

 

Which would you prefer over a 6 year period?

 

Order them by your choices...

 

Team A:

No rings

2 first place finishes (one long playoff run to AL championship series or WS loss)

2 second place finishes (2 WC placements with somewhat early exits from POs)

2 third place finishes (no WCs)

No 4th or 5th place finishes

 

Team B

1 ring

5 last place finishes (which might be 78-80 win seasons)

 

Team C

2 WS appearances but 2 losses

4 last place finishes

 

I'd choose B with A & C very close.

(If I had to choose, I'd go B>A>C.)

 

 

[moonslav59]

DD should have been given the opportunity to clean up the mess. Maybe he didn't want to work under the constraints Henry listed and it was more mutual than we first believed?

 

I just can't see DD sitting through 2020, knowing that the 2021 budget was not going to be boosted to the level needed to compete, again, the fact that we did notwithstanding.

 

[Duran Is The Man]

Which would you prefer over a 6 year period?

 

Order them by your choices...

 

Team A:

No rings

2 first place finishes (one long playoff run to AL championship series or WS loss)

2 second place finishes (2 WC placements with somewhat early exits from POs)

2 third place finishes (no WCs)

No 4th or 5th place finishes

 

Team B

1 ring

5 last place finishes (which might be 78-80 win seasons)

 

Team C

2 WS appearances but 2 losses

4 last place finishes

 

I'd choose B with A & C very close.

(If I had to choose, I'd go B>A>C.)

 

 

 

i'd choose not firing a guy that just won you 3 straight ALEast titles and a WS before having an off year and finishing 3rd.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Per your post, you were happier back when they weren't winning championships. Therefore, you'd still be happier if they had never won in comparison to how you feel during the recent rollercoaster. If that's not true, then you should be happier with the recent rollercoaster than when they were always coming up short because of some made up curse.

 

I was happier as a fan rooting for Bellhorn's 87% of Red Sox winners from '66-'11, compared to Bellhorn's 50% of Red Sox losers from '12-23. Each span includes two Boston World Series champions.

 

You can ride the roller coaster. I got seasick on a freshwater lake (maybe since it connects an AL East rival's state to another's province).

[mvp 78]

I was happier as a fan rooting for Bellhorn's 87% of Red Sox winners from '66-'11, compared to Bellhorn's 50% of Red Sox losers from '12-23. Each span includes two Boston World Series champions.

 

You can ride the roller coaster. I got seasick on a freshwater lake (maybe since it connects an AL East rival's state to another's province).

 

I get vertigo, so I need to be heavily medicated for the Red Sox. Maybe that's one of my issues?

[Bellhorn04]

I just can't see DD sitting through 2020, knowing that the 2021 budget was not going to be boosted to the level needed to compete, again, the fact that we did notwithstanding.

 

 

Your position is kind of like saying they fired DD for his own good - to spare him from suffering.

[moonslav59]

Your position is kind of like saying they fired DD for his own good - to spare him from suffering.

 

I think the team realized DD was not the GM to sit through a long rebuild. I think he probably voiced his displeasure over not bringing Kimbrell and Kelly back after 2018 and was likely against trading Betts in the summer of 2019, as rumors suggested was discussed, before the Sox went on a winning stretch.

 

There were rumors of friction between DD and the rest of the front office. It may not have been about the direction the team was taking, but IMO, it probably was.

 

I think the parting was in both party's best interest. That's not to say DD would have quit after 2019 or 2020, but I think the friction would have grown even more intolerable.

 

DD does have a history of working with rebuilding teams, so my theory could be wrong, but trading Betts is not the type of move DD enjoys making. Can we agree on that?

[moonslav59]

i'd choose not firing a guy that just won you 3 straight ALEast titles and a WS before having an off year and finishing 3rd.

 

We know that about you and many of us agree.

 

You think DD & the same budget gets the 2020 team over .500?

[dgalehouse]

Let's be honest. Some esteemed posters just love to be disagreeable. They can go off on tangents all day , but it doesn't change the fact that there is a certain stigma that goes with being the cellar dweller. Maybe not to everybody on here, but certainly true in general. How can that be disputed ? And finishing in last place has nothing to do with " winning rings". To even have a chance at a championship, you have to make the playoffs. A scenario where you finish last ten times and then win it all is improbable at best and borderline nonsensical.

[Old Red]

Let's be honest. Some esteemed posters just love to be disagreeable. They can go off on tangents all day , but it doesn't change the fact that there is a certain stigma that goes with being the cellar dweller. Maybe not to everybody on here, but certainly true in general. How can that be disputed ? And finishing in last place has nothing to do with " winning rings". To even have a chance at a championship, you have to make the playoffs. A scenario where you finish last ten times and then win it all is improbable at best and borderline nonsensical.

 

Some just like to dream about the future instead of playing in the present. To me watching a bad losing team who played bad D from day 1, who were bad on the bases, and used openers after openers like the just completed season was worse than watching the 1966 Red Sox. It doesn’t help to me that 2018 wasn’t that long ago when the Red Sox last won a championship. It didn’t take away the 2020, 2022, and 2023 seasons who some saw a mirage especially the last two years, and actually thought the Red Sox had a chance to make the PS.

[Old Red]

We know that about you and many of us agree.

 

You think DD & the same budget gets the 2020 team over .500?

Maybe not, but a better 2021, 2022, and 2023 teams yes.

[moonslav59]

Some just like to dream about the future instead of playing in the present.

 

Some can do both.

 

It does not have to be either/or.

[Old Red]

I just can't see DD sitting through 2020, knowing that the 2021 budget was not going to be boosted to the level needed to compete, again, the fact that we did notwithstanding.

 

 

I just can’t see Bloom being hired at all.

[moonslav59]

Maybe not, but a better 2021, 2022, and 2023 teams yes.

 

That could certainly be a strong possibility, if he chose to stick around that long.

 

(I'm not so sure about better than 2021. That budget was pretty tight.)

[moonslav59]

I just can’t see Bloom being hired at all.

 

Were you blind?

[Duran Is The Man]

We know that about you and many of us agree.

 

You think DD & the same budget gets the 2020 team over .500?

 

DD has been very, very successful wherever he's been, so i'd give him the benefit of the doubt. and i know he would have done better than the idiot Henry hired to replace him.

Edited December 4, 2023 by ****THEYANKEES

[Old Red]

Some can do both.

 

It does not have to be either/or.

 

Bloom proved he wasn’t one of them who could do both.

[Old Red]

DD has been very, very successful where ever he's been, so i'd give him the benefit of the doubt. and i know he would have done better than the idiot Henry hired to replace him.

 

I wouldn’t go that far to call Bloom an idiot. He was just in way over his head. Big difference between sitting in the nerd room in Tampa, and being the front man in Boston.

[Old Red]

Were you blind?

 

JH apparently was.

[moonslav59]

DD has been very, very successful where ever he's been, so i'd give him the benefit of the doubt. and i know he would have done better than the idiot Henry hired to replace him.

 

Not taking anything away from DD, but he has done well, when he spends really bigly.