A Realistic View at 2024: Part I

[notin]

I don't buy it. The selloff in Miami was ordered by the owner and they won another World Series in 2003.

 

The guys that replaced Dombrowski in Detroit and Boston just weren't very good. Plus the Red Sox almost made the World Series in 2021 in spite of the so-called devastation. Bloom did do a good job that one year, and certainly gets a lot of the credit, but it absolutely refutes the "devastation" idea.

 

Plus you've argued that the Sox could have made runs in 2022 and 2023 if Bloom made moves at the deadlines. So you're contradicting yourself with the devastation thing.

 

Not at all.

 

The Marlins sell off, while planned, was to avoid all the contracts they gave out. Those contracts absolutely could have gone very bad and turned the Marlins into an expensive flop.

 

The Sox made a series of moves to alleviate some of the financial damage DD did leave behind. David Price, for example. Remember they had $300mill (ish) still tied up in Price, Sale and Eovaldi after 2019. Those three gave the team exactly one full season and a bunch of partial ones. They weren’t exactly flush with pitching prospects coming up to help. They still had the Betts contract situation. And an owner wanting a reset. That’s not devastation?

 

And then Sale needed TJ in the first year of a 5 year deal?

 

And with all this money dedicated to pitching and more needed for Betts, etc. what minimum wage players was the non-emptied farm bringing up? Michael Chavis, Bobby Dalbec, Darwinzon Hernandez and Tanner Houck. Those are the only rookies to debut in 2019 and 2020 to come to Tori the Sox farm and have a positive fWAR. Not sure they were going to ease the financial burden at the other positions.

 

Are you really arguing he left this team in good shape? John Henry might side with me here…

[moonslav59]

Complaining about the schedule, and being in the same Div the Red Sox have been in since divisions were brought in to me is whining, and crying, and saying poor me. Bloom having one winning season out of four, which was good enough at 22 games over 500 does not make up for 3 losing seasons even if the team was 80-82. I didn’t say 2021 didn’t count. If it makes you feel better count it go ahead, and add things all up, but obviously it wasn’t good enough for JH.

 

I never said anything about you saying 2021 did not count. You said this....

 

22 games over 500 in 2021, which was the outlier for Bloom makes the overall record better than things really were. It didn’t cover up the two losing last in the Div teams though.

 

Were you saying the actual and final W-L record does not reflect just how bad things were under Bloom, or not?

 

It sounds to me like his W-L records wasn't bad enough for you, so you had to "make excuses" why we shouldn't look at just wins and losses, because 2021 made things look better than they really were.

 

You still don't see the hypocrisy, do you?

 

By the way, say I felt the 2022 team was better than it's record indicated due to a tough schedule was not whining or crying: it was stating facts. If you do think it's whining and crying, then so is your comments about 2021 skewing Bloom's record to make him look not as bad as you think he should.

 

[moonslav59]

You are not comparing Bloom to Vince are you? That’s about as big a stretch as you can get. Vince is a legend, and Bloom is a loser. WOW!

 

You never get the point.

[Old Red]

You never get the point.

 

I got your point 100%, and it’s still WOW!🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈.

[notin]

A couple of starting pitchers had injuries, but the offense was fine. It was basically a very good team. The drop off was largely due to blown saves.

 

The 4.95 ERA from the rotation wasn’t a factor?

[harmony]

I never said anything about you saying 2021 did not count. You said this....

 

22 games over 500 in 2021, which was the outlier for Bloom makes the overall record better than things really were. It didn’t cover up the two losing last in the Div teams though.

 

Were you saying the actual and final W-L record does not reflect just how bad things were under Bloom, or not?

 

It sounds to me like his W-L records wasn't bad enough for you, so you had to "make excuses" why we shouldn't look at just wins and losses, because 2021 made things look better than they really were.

 

You still don't see the hypocrisy, do you?

 

By the way, say I felt the 2022 team was better than it's record indicated due to a tough schedule was not whining or crying: it was stating facts. If you do think it's whining and crying, then so is your comments about 2021 skewing Bloom's record to make him look not as bad as you think he should.

 

FWIW even with the record 22 games above .500 in 2021 the Red Sox have a losing cumulative regular-season record over the past four years.

[Bellhorn04]

Not at all.

 

The Marlins sell off, while planned, was to avoid all the contracts they gave out. Those contracts absolutely could have gone very bad and turned the Marlins into an expensive flop.

 

The Sox made a series of moves to alleviate some of the financial damage DD did leave behind. David Price, for example. Remember they had $300mill (ish) still tied up in Price, Sale and Eovaldi after 2019. Those three gave the team exactly one full season and a bunch of partial ones. They weren’t exactly flush with pitching prospects coming up to help. They still had the Betts contract situation. And an owner wanting a reset. That’s not devastation?

 

And then Sale needed TJ in the first year of a 5 year deal?

 

And with all this money dedicated to pitching and more needed for Betts, etc. what minimum wage players was the non-emptied farm bringing up? Michael Chavis, Bobby Dalbec, Darwinzon Hernandez and Tanner Houck. Those are the only rookies to debut in 2019 and 2020 to come to Tori the Sox farm and have a positive fWAR. Not sure they were going to ease the financial burden at the other positions.

 

Are you really arguing he left this team in good shape? John Henry might side with me here…

 

But I didn't say good shape. You're the one who used the dramatic term "devastation", somehow ignoring the 2021 ALCS appearance and the fact you wanted the team to buy at the 2022 and 2023 deadlines because they were still in it. Yeah, that's some real devastation there.

[moonslav59]

FWIW even with the record 22 games above .500 in 2021 the Red Sox have a losing cumulative regular-season record over the past four years.

 

I'm well aware of that fact. It was actually near .500 when Bloom was fired, but certainly the record after he left should count.

 

For four years, all we heard was it's all about the W-L record, but now, we should believe we were really worse than our losing record indicated. Go figure.

[moonslav59]

I got your point 100%, and it’s still WOW!🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈.

 

The point was about you not Vince or Bloom.

 

Yes, WOW!

[notin]

But I didn't say good shape. You're the one who used the dramatic term "devastation", somehow ignoring the 2021 ALCS appearance and the fact you wanted the team to buy at the 2022 and 2023 deadlines because they were still in it. Yeah, that's some real devastation there.

 

There were moves made, you know. The only two players on the 2019 team and 2023 team were Chris Sale and Ryan Brasier.

 

How would you characterize the state of the Sox after 2019?

[moonslav59]

But I didn't say good shape. You're the one who used the dramatic term "devastation", somehow ignoring the 2021 ALCS appearance and the fact you wanted the team to buy at the 2022 and 2023 deadlines because they were still in it. Yeah, that's some real devastation there.

 

Rock-em-sock-em.

 

[moonslav59]

There were moves made, you know. The only two players on the 2019 team and 2023 team were Chris Sale and Ryan Brasier.

 

 

Forget Devers?

[mvp 78]

Rock-em-sock-em.

 

 

Bell would knock you out like Tyson did to Spinks.

[moonslav59]

Bell would knock you out like Tyson did to Spinks.

 

The bout is Bell v notin.

 

Do try to keep up.

[notin]

Forget Devers?

 

I did

[moonslav59]

I did

 

Just a minor omission.

[notin]

Just a minor omission.

 

It started off going through the pitching changes…

[moonslav59]

It started off going through the pitching changes…

 

It's amazing how much the team has changed, and not just since 2019.

 

Bobby Dee has the 3rd highest 40 man roster seniority!

Pivetta is 5th.

Duran is 10th and was added in July of '21

Story is 14th and was added in March '22

Martin, Jansen and Yoshida are above 30th!

[Hugh2]

I never said anything about you saying 2021 did not count. You said this....

 

22 games over 500 in 2021, which was the outlier for Bloom makes the overall record better than things really were. It didn’t cover up the two losing last in the Div teams though.

 

Were you saying the actual and final W-L record does not reflect just how bad things were under Bloom, or not?

 

It sounds to me like his W-L records wasn't bad enough for you, so you had to "make excuses" why we shouldn't look at just wins and losses, because 2021 made things look better than they really were.

 

You still don't see the hypocrisy, do you?

 

By the way, say I felt the 2022 team was better than it's record indicated due to a tough schedule was not whining or crying: it was stating facts. If you do think it's whining and crying, then so is your comments about 2021 skewing Bloom's record to make him look not as bad as you think he should.

 

 

If anything, 2020 doesn’t count.

[moonslav59]

If anything, 2020 doesn’t count.

 

That was horrific on so many fronts.

 

The kicker was Sale and ERod both missing the full 60 game season, JD hitting .680 and Devers hitting .7932.

 

But hey, nobody likes whiners and cryers, so we should all rejoice in the mud- not wallow in it.

[notin]

That was horrific on so many fronts.

 

The kicker was Sale and ERod both missing the full 60 game season, JD hitting .680 and Devers hitting .7932.

 

But hey, nobody likes whiners and cryers, so we should all rejoice in the mud- not wallow in it.

 

2020 was an obvious planned punt.

 

The worst thing about that year once it got started (the preseason was horrible) was that Bloom did give up too early on Jeffrey Springs.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Globe runs a story about Red Sox lacking star power in the outfield.

 

NESN runs two articles extolling the virtues of bringing Juan Soto to Boston.

 

Some talksox typers have been ahead of both of these sources...

 

... beat reporters, defeated posters -- linking up to make Sox better!

 

Imagine the damage Devers and Soto could do together if they could just get back into the postseason -- and get to swing at the obviously juiced baseballs MLB is using in every playoff game!!!!

[cp176]

But I didn't say good shape. You're the one who used the dramatic term "devastation", somehow ignoring the 2021 ALCS appearance and the fact you wanted the team to buy at the 2022 and 2023 deadlines because they were still in it. Yeah, that's some real devastation there.

 

I've tried to stay out of this because constantly trying to compare the last two GM's we have had seems silly to me. Notin appears to be obsessed with attempting to paint a negative picture of a GM who has been extremely successful. If Dave Dombrowski was still in Boston, I would be willing to bet that our team would still be relevant.

[Bellhorn04]

Globe runs a story about Red Sox lacking star power in the outfield.

 

NESN runs two articles extolling the virtues of bringing Juan Soto to Boston.

 

Some talksox typers have been ahead of both of these sources...

 

... beat reporters, defeated posters -- linking up to make Sox better!

 

Imagine the damage Devers and Soto could do together if they could just get back into the postseason -- and get to swing at the obviously juiced baseballs MLB is using in every playoff game!!!!

 

Soto is a major weapon but it's hard to see trading top prospects for one year of him.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Soto is a major weapon but it's hard to see trading top prospects for one year of him.

 

The old Red Sox would never swing the deal unless it included a Godfather offer that immediately locked up their new star longterm, announced at the Welcome Back to Relevancy press conference.

 

Otherwise: why trade Mayer or Anthony -- for anyone?

[Bellhorn04]

The old Red Sox would never swing the deal unless it included a Godfather offer that immediately locked up their new star longterm, announced at the Welcome Back to Relevancy press conference.

 

Otherwise: why trade Mayer or Anthony -- for anyone?

 

No one seems to know if those 72 hour window deals are even allowed any more. If they are, it would have to be some chunk of change for Soto to forego free agency.

[moonslav59]

2020 was an obvious planned punt.

 

The worst thing about that year once it got started (the preseason was horrible) was that Bloom did give up too early on Jeffrey Springs.

 

That was a sad choice made.

 

He traded so few young players and prospects, but that one hurt.

[moonslav59]

I've tried to stay out of this because constantly trying to compare the last two GM's we have had seems silly to me. Notin appears to be obsessed with attempting to paint a negative picture of a GM who has been extremely successful. If Dave Dombrowski was still in Boston, I would be willing to bet that our team would still be relevant.

 

DD did have a hand in a couple of things that adversely affected the teams from 2019 to today, but the amount of good he did, some still having lasting effects (like keeping Devers, Bello, Casas, Houck, Crawford, Rafaela and others) far outweigh those two things:

1. Tough budget for the next GM to deal with.

2. Virtually no significant farm help from Devers i '17 to Casas/Bello '23, unless you count Houck.

 

To me, it was worth it all, and if we were to start spending again, I'd welcome DD back with open arms. (I'm not so sure I would, if the current philosophy continues.)

[moonslav59]

The old Red Sox would never swing the deal unless it included a Godfather offer that immediately locked up their new star longterm, announced at the Welcome Back to Relevancy press conference.

 

Otherwise: why trade Mayer or Anthony -- for anyone?

 

You could trade them for a pitcher with 4-5 years of team control, already.

[Bellhorn04]

DD did have a hand in a couple of things that adversely affected the teams from 2019 to today, but the amount of good he did, some still having lasting effects (like keeping Devers, Bello, Casas, Houck, Crawford, Rafaela and others) far outweigh those two things:

1. Tough budget for the next GM to deal with.

2. Virtually no significant farm help from Devers i '17 to Casas/Bello '23, unless you count Houck.

 

To me, it was worth it all, and if we were to start spending again, I'd welcome DD back with open arms. (I'm not so sure I would, if the current philosophy continues.)

 

The DD ship has left Boston Harbor forever.