Bloom fired

[Randy Red Sox]

Being paid minimum wage in itself doesn't make you a plus. Any bum can do that for you.

 

And lord knows we have seen enough bums in Boston these past 4 years.

[Bellhorn04]

And which one that I mentioned qualifies as a man off the street?

 

Remember we are refuting the notion that anyone DD dealt away failed to become a star so therefore they were all expendable on a team that had no talent between A ball and MLB. The notion that players were useless because they aren’t on a fast track to Cooperstown is ridiculous…

 

You're not providing a lick of data, though, just reciting a general theory.

[moonslav59]

Name names please.

 

Some are still not in MLB, yet.

 

Logan Allen is ranked 57th on BTV's most valuable pitchers- at 22.4 (just below Zach Eflin and just above Luis Castillo. Pure speculation, of course, but the jury is still out on him, for sure.)

 

I'm not taking back hardly any trades DD made. They guy was awesome with trades, but there are guys we could use, right now.

 

Margot means no JBJ reunion.

 

fWARs since 2017

15.0 Moncada

9.4 Margot

6.3 TShaw

4.7 Espinal

2.0 Beeks

1.9 Kopech

 

I'm not saying this list is good, but some of these guys would have been useful at min wage or arb costs, and I might still like to still have Logan Allen, Margot, Kopech, Beeks and Espinal on our 40.

[notin]

Why? He's had 4 consecutive relatively healthy seasons. Why don't we just stipulate that every pitcher has health risks?

 

Well three. You’re counting 2023, which has not happened at the time.

 

Why the Hangup on Walker? I’ve never said Kluber was the only option. There were a few others that Bloom could have signed instead. Senga was one guy who I liked. I’d have signed Taillon over Walker.

 

I think the issue Gate is abloom didn’t want to go long term with some of these high mileage guys. Although the entire Eovaldi thing was mostly.

 

He did focus on Eflin, who turned out to be a good target that unfortunately wanted to play elsewhere

Edited October 8, 2023 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Some are still not in MLB, yet.

 

Logan Allen is ranked 57th on BTV's most valuable pitchers- at 22.4 (just below Zach Eflin and just above Luis Castillo. Pure speculation, of course, but the jury is still out.

 

That must be Logan Allen II you're talking about, not the one DD traded.

[moonslav59]

Walker over Kluber is a delta of 8.

 

If Cot's is right, we were 11 under.

 

(Not 100% sure Cot's is right - we'll find out in December.)

 

I'm not sure, either, but it might have just had to be Kluber and Mondesi or Joely.

[Bellhorn04]

Well three. You’re counting 2023, which has not happened at the time.

 

Why the Hangup on Walker? I’ve never said Kluber was the only option. There were a few others that Bloom could have signed instead. Senga was one guy who I liked. I’d have signed Taillon over Walker…

 

I'm not hung up on Walker. The context was Bloom - Dombrowski moves in the 2023 offseason.

[Randy Red Sox]

And which one that I mentioned qualifies as a man off the street?

 

Remember we are refuting the notion that anyone DD dealt away failed to become a star so therefore they were all expendable on a team that had no talent between A ball and MLB. The notion that players were useless because they aren’t on a fast track to Cooperstown is ridiculous…

 

You missed the point totally. What the poster is saying is that DD was on base with the prospects he kept. Would you rather have the 4 you listed or Bello, Casas, Duran, Raefla? Then of course if we keep your 4 we don't get Sale { bad extension aside} and anyone else DD acquired for those 4 you mention. DD was a FAR FAR better GM than Bloom will EVER be.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not sure, either, but it might have just had to be Kluber and Mondesi or Joely.

 

Only if Cot's is wrong by more than 3 mill or so.

[moonslav59]

That must be Logan Allen II you're talking about, not the one DD traded.

 

My bad. I did not know there were two.

 

I was surprised to see him ranked that highly. BTV has our Logan at 0.0 value, lol.

[moonslav59]

Only if Cot's is wrong by more than 3 mill or so.

 

We did pay some bonuses, too.

[Bellhorn04]

We did pay some bonuses, too.

 

Let's give Mondesi the boot, then.

[moonslav59]

You missed the point totally. What the poster is saying is that DD was on base with the prospects he kept. Would you rather have the 4 you listed or Bello, Casas, Duran, Raefla? Then of course if we keep your 4 we don't get Sale { bad extension aside} and anyone else DD acquired for those 4 you mention. DD was a FAR FAR better GM than Bloom will EVER be.

 

It's like comparing apples to oranges as Bloom made no major prospect trades, perhaps by mandate.

 

No doubt, DD mastered the trade market and chose the right prospects to keep. It's really quite amazing. Some have argued he might not have even know who Bello, Casas and Houck were, at the time, and that their trade values were very low, when he was here, but the bottom line is he kept the right ones and won just about every trade he made. Even the ones he did not win, he never lost one badly.

 

BTW, it's not just Devers, Bello, Casas and Houck, it is also Crawford, Duran, Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales & Mata. I probably missed some.

 

DD deserves some blame for where we have been from 2019 to maybe today, but in this area, he nailed it. In hindsight, the highly rated prospects he traded, mostly were overrated. The ones he kept were underrated or too far away to know much.

 

The ones we wish we still had, we still got great returns for, so what's the beef?

 

He nailed it- time and time again.

 

[Old Red]

You missed the point totally. What the poster is saying is that DD was on base with the prospects he kept. Would you rather have the 4 you listed or Bello, Casas, Duran, Raefla? Then of course if we keep your 4 we don't get Sale { bad extension aside} and anyone else DD acquired for those 4 you mention. DD was a FAR FAR better GM than Bloom will EVER be.

 

Well said, and agree 100%.👍👍👍

[Randy Red Sox]

It's like comparing apples to oranges as Bloom made no major prospect trades, perhaps by mandate.

 

No doubt, DD mastered the trade market and chose the right prospects to keep. It's really quite amazing. Some have argued he might not have even know who Bello, Casas and Houck were, at the time, and that their trade values were very low, when he was here, but the bottom line is he kept the right ones and won just about every trade he made. Even the ones he did not win, he never lost one badly.

 

BTW, it's not just Devers, Bello, Casas and Houck, it is also Crawford, Duran, Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales & Mata. I probably missed some.

 

DD deserves some blame for where we have been from 2019 to maybe today, but in this area, he nailed it. In hindsight, the highly rated prospects he traded, mostly were overrated. The ones he kept were underrated or too far away to know much.

 

The ones we wish we still had, we still got great returns for, so what's the beef?

 

He nailed it- time and time again.

 

 

i agree with pretty much everything in your post. DD's one major blunder was extending Sale but he was kind of under the gun on that.

[Randy Red Sox]

It's like comparing apples to oranges as Bloom made no major prospect trades, perhaps by mandate.

 

No doubt, DD mastered the trade market and chose the right prospects to keep. It's really quite amazing. Some have argued he might not have even know who Bello, Casas and Houck were, at the time, and that their trade values were very low, when he was here, but the bottom line is he kept the right ones and won just about every trade he made. Even the ones he did not win, he never lost one badly.

 

BTW, it's not just Devers, Bello, Casas and Houck, it is also Crawford, Duran, Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales & Mata. I probably missed some.

 

DD deserves some blame for where we have been from 2019 to maybe today, but in this area, he nailed it. In hindsight, the highly rated prospects he traded, mostly were overrated. The ones he kept were underrated or too far away to know much.

 

The ones we wish we still had, we still got great returns for, so what's the beef?

 

He nailed it- time and time again.

 

 

PS I totally forgot to mention Devers and Houck

[moonslav59]

PS I totally forgot to mention Devers and Houck

 

The whole "emptied the farm" was a mirage, at best and complete bunk at worst.

[notin]

You missed the point totally. What the poster is saying is that DD was on base with the prospects he kept. Would you rather have the 4 you listed or Bello, Casas, Duran, Raefla? Then of course if we keep your 4 we don't get Sale { bad extension aside} and anyone else DD acquired for those 4 you mention. DD was a FAR FAR better GM than Bloom will EVER be.

 

Actually none of the ones you listed that he kept were in the system at the time…

[Randy Red Sox]

Actually none of the ones you listed that he kept were in the system at the time…

 

correct me if I am wrong but I believe they were all acquired under DD's watch

[notin]

I'm not hung up on Walker. The context was Bloom - Dombrowski moves in the 2023 offseason.

 

Ok.

 

Bloom gave one year to a guy coming off a 3.1 fWAR season.

 

Dombrowski gave 4 years to a guy coming off a 2.5 fWAR season.

 

Clearly both were operating with different financial parameters. Just ask Trea Turner’s agent if you doubt me. If you can’t reach Trea Turner’s agent, contact the guy who maintains his new boat.

 

My problem with abloom isn’t that I can use hindsight to compare his moves to those of other GMs with different budgets. My problem with him is twice he quit on the team in July when they were in the playoff picture. The off-season moves youre still hung up on we’re actually part of a team that was working. Want some data? They are 3 games out at the 2022 trade deadline and 2 games out at the 2023 trade deadline. They added Hosmer and Urias to those teams that both needed pitching.

 

That’s why Bloom is gone. At least I hope it is.

 

As for Dombrowski, he left begging a mediocre team with the highest payroll in MLB and (I know you like to omit this part) $300mill tied up in 3 off-injured starting pitchers, and no minimum wage help on the horizon. Do you g honk that had no impact on Bloom’s role? Heck it might impact the next guy.

 

Some of we’re not surprised by it. And said so on this board.

[moonslav59]

correct me if I am wrong but I believe they were all acquired under DD's watch

 

Devers was an IFA from 2013, but was certainly on the radar under DD's term, and he did not trade him. He was not acquired by DD. The rest were...

 

All acquired under DD:

2016 Crawford 16th rd draft, Mata IFA, Dalbec 4th rd,

2017 Bello IFA, Houck 1st rd draft, Rafaela IFA

2018 Casas 1st rd,, Duran 7th rd draft, Wikelman IFA, Bonaci IFA, Paulino IFA

2019 Murphy 6th Rd, Perales IFA, Castro IFA, Walter 26th Rd, SScott 10th Rd

[dgalehouse]

I can't believe that , after seven years, folks are still critiquing two of the best trades in Red Sox history. Kopech, despite a live arm, has never amounted to anything for the Pale hose. And now, they are even using a substitute Logan Allen to try and justify that trade. Anything goes in trying to diminish Dombrowski. Let it go.

[notin]

I can't believe that , after seven years, folks are still critiquing two of the best trades in Red Sox history. Kopech, despite a live arm, has never amounted to anything for the Pale hose. And now, they are even using a substitute Logan Allen to try and justify that trade. Anything goes in trying to diminish Dombrowski. Let it go.

 

So tell me again - if Dombrowski didn’t get fired, what does he do with Mookie?

[Randy Red Sox]

So tell me again - if Dombrowski didn’t get fired, what does he do with Mookie?

 

 

Mookie is on JOHN HENRY--not Bloom or DD. John Henry ALONE refused to buck up for Mookie and NO-ONE can convince me otherwise.

[Old Red]

So tell me again - if Dombrowski didn’t get fired, what does he do with Mookie?

 

Most likely trade him. The word out there was DD had a trade worked out with the Dodgers for Mookie during the 2019 season, but backed out of it.

[moonslav59]

I can't believe that , after seven years, folks are still critiquing two of the best trades in Red Sox history. Kopech, despite a live arm, has never amounted to anything for the Pale hose. And now, they are even using a substitute Logan Allen to try and justify that trade. Anything goes in trying to diminish Dombrowski. Let it go.

 

Get real.

 

I have fully supported DD's trades, over and over.

 

Someone asked who he traded that we'd want on our team. I mistakenly switched Logan Allens. You make it sound like I did it to make DD look bad. My position has been to try to make him look good on just about every trade he ever made for us. Even the ones that weren't great never hurt us or helped the other team way more.

 

If the worst trade we can find is trading away Travis Shaw, who had a couple good seasons, after the trade, I think that speaks volumes on just how great his trades were.

[moonslav59]

Most likely trade him. The word out there was DD had a trade worked out with the Dodgers for Mookie during the 2019 season, but backed out of it.

 

This article seems to claim the Sox offered $300M/10 and Betts countered with $420M.

 

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/dave-dombrowski-nearly-traded-mookie-betts-to-the-dodgers-last-season/397746/

 

Here Betts speaks of "turning down the offer."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/07/mookie-betts-ex-boston-red-sox-star-doesnt-regret-turning-down-300m-extension-offer-once-i-make-a-decision-i-make-a-decision.html

 

In this article, Henry says they offered Betts a deal 3 times:

 

"We made legitimate offers over three offseasons,” said principal owner John Henry. “We made it clear to Mookie and I made it personally clear, 1-on-1, that we wanted to see him in a Red Sox uniform for the rest of his career if possible."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/02/boston-red-sox-made-three-generous-proposals-to-mookie-betts-before-deciding-to-trade-him-to-dodgers.html

Edited October 9, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

This article seems to claim the Sox offered $300M/10 and Betts countered with $420M.

 

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/dave-dombrowski-nearly-traded-mookie-betts-to-the-dodgers-last-season/397746/

 

Here Betts speaks of "turning down the offer."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/07/mookie-betts-ex-boston-red-sox-star-doesnt-regret-turning-down-300m-extension-offer-once-i-make-a-decision-i-make-a-decision.html

 

In this article, Henry says they offered Betts a deal 3 times:

 

"We made legitimate offers over three offseasons,” said principal owner John Henry. “We made it clear to Mookie and I made it personally clear, 1-on-1, that we wanted to see him in a Red Sox uniform for the rest of his career if possible."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/02/boston-red-sox-made-three-generous-proposals-to-mookie-betts-before-deciding-to-trade-him-to-dodgers.html

 

And when Betts was in town with the Dodgers he said 2 things:

 

1) No $300 million offer was made.

2) If you want to know more about the negotiations, talk to Chaim.

 

It's been crickets from the Red Sox ever since, right?

[mvp 78]

I can't believe that , after seven years, folks are still critiquing two of the best trades in Red Sox history. Kopech, despite a live arm, has never amounted to anything for the Pale hose. And now, they are even using a substitute Logan Allen to try and justify that trade. Anything goes in trying to diminish Dombrowski. Let it go.

 

I'm not going to read far back in this thread, but I can't believe many people would complain about the trade at all. The trade was fine. The extension was stupid.

 

The Sox farm system fell to 30th because they had some miserable drafts under Ben and Dave, did some IFA shenanigans and traded a bunch of prospects. Hard to have a strong farm system when you do that.

[mvp 78]

This article seems to claim the Sox offered $300M/10 and Betts countered with $420M.

 

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/dave-dombrowski-nearly-traded-mookie-betts-to-the-dodgers-last-season/397746/

 

Here Betts speaks of "turning down the offer."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/07/mookie-betts-ex-boston-red-sox-star-doesnt-regret-turning-down-300m-extension-offer-once-i-make-a-decision-i-make-a-decision.html

 

In this article, Henry says they offered Betts a deal 3 times:

 

"We made legitimate offers over three offseasons,” said principal owner John Henry. “We made it clear to Mookie and I made it personally clear, 1-on-1, that we wanted to see him in a Red Sox uniform for the rest of his career if possible."

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/02/boston-red-sox-made-three-generous-proposals-to-mookie-betts-before-deciding-to-trade-him-to-dodgers.html

 

JH's definition of "legitimate" were still far below what he got paid by the Dodgers while under contract and not on the open market.