Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Do you suppose that trading him for two years of Michael King is something they find satisfying? You might be overvaluing King just a tad here. Especially since you think he was the best piece in that deal…

 

I live in Yankees country, so know Thorpe was their top pitching prospect -- but who knows if he's breaking camp in the majors this year. For this season, there's no doubt King is a big league starter, coming off '23 when he had a higher WAR and lower ERA than any member of the Red Sox woe tation. At least we know New York won't be giving us Fitts, since they already did.

[Bellhorn04]

If we trade for King and sign Montgomery (cue Aerosmith singing Dream On), that will give us close to 10 pitchers who were recently properties of the Yankees.

[moonslav59]

If we trade for King and sign Montgomery (cue Aerosmith singing Dream On), that will give us close to 10 pitchers who were recently properties of the Yankees.

 

Monty & King

 

Whitlock

Kelly

German

Fitts

Weissert

Judice

 

Who am I missing? (Ort is gone.)

 

[Bellhorn04]

Monty & King

 

Whitlock

Kelly

German

Fitts

Weissert

Judice

 

Who am I missing? (Ort is gone.)

 

 

8 seems right.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If we trade for King and sign Montgomery (cue Aerosmith singing Dream On), that will give us close to 10 pitchers who were recently properties of the Yankees.

 

Then we should be World Series favorites -- like the Yankees were every single year the past decade -- and already are, again, because they got Stroman and Soto to compliment Verdugo. "Nice necklace, Alex... but there's a typo on your durag."

[notin]

I live in Yankees country, so know Thorpe was their top pitching prospect -- but who knows if he's breaking camp in the majors this year. For this season, there's no doubt King is a big league starter, coming off '23 when he had a higher WAR and lower ERA than any member of the Red Sox woe tation. At least we know New York won't be giving us Fitts, since they already did.

 

True for bWAR, but less fWAR than Kutter Crawford.

 

The bottom line is in that trade that got 6 years of Thorpe, 5 years of Brito, 6 years of Vásquez and 2 years of King. All for one year of Soto.

 

If they actually did deal 2 years of King for 5 years of Duran, that’s actually a good trade for the Padres. And it actually makes the Soto deal look better…

[moonslav59]

8 seems right.

 

Paxton & Ort from last season.

[Randy Red Sox]

He also tried negotiating and the Sox stopped negotiating.

 

Henry: We'll give you 300.

 

Mookie: How about 400?

 

Henry: twiddle thumbs for a while...

 

Bloom: You're traded now.

 

At any point they could have countered Mookie's 400. They CHOSE not to. Mookie CHOSE a number between 300 and 400. It's clear he had an appetite for an amount somewhere in between the Sox offer and his counter. Sox just didn't want to negotiate.

 

Enough Mookie and Xander talk please. The topic has been beaten to death

[moonslav59]

Enough Mookie and Xander talk please. The topic has been beaten to death

 

We all go through times where we just want this all to stop.

 

It never will.

[Randy Red Sox]

We all go through times where we just want this all to stop.

 

It never will.

 

maybe if our dormat FO made a move or 2?

[moonslav59]

maybe if our dormat FO made a move or 2?

 

We don't have another Betts or Bogey to trade.

 

Maybe Devers?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

True for bWAR, but less fWAR than Kutter Crawford.

 

The bottom line is in that trade that got 6 years of Thorpe, 5 years of Brito, 6 years of Vásquez and 2 years of King. All for one year of Soto.

 

If they actually did deal 2 years of King for 5 years of Duran, that’s actually a good trade for the Padres. And it actually makes the Soto deal look better…

 

I'm in the Old Red camp in claiming the vast majority of fans actually care more about -- their team, this season -- compared to one iota (or why I oughta) who even think about a player's years of control in the future.

 

I also think Scott Boras is overrated if he can't convince Montgomery to sign with Boston, while NESN's top sponsor is Jordan's Furniture (no, I don't work for them -- but Monty should soon, and extend a cut to his agent).

[notin]

I'm in the Old Red camp in claiming the vast majority of fans actually care more about -- their team, this season -- compared to one iota (or why I oughta) who even think about a player's years of control in the future.

 

I also think Scott Boras is overrated if he can't convince Montgomery to sign with Boston, while NESN's top sponsor is Jordan's Furniture (no, I don't work for them -- but Monty should soon, and extend a cut to his agent).

 

I agree also all fans care more about their team this season. However MLB executives who act that way don’t last long. But a King/Duran trade isn’t selling out the Padres’ future. Duran is in MLB already.

 

Montgomery potentially doing Jordan’s Furniture spots actually is a better selling point than any joke suggests…

Edited February 11, 2024 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

I'm in the Old Red camp in claiming the vast majority of fans actually care more about -- their team, this season -- compared to one iota (or why I oughta) who even think about a player's years of control in the future.

 

I also think Scott Boras is overrated if he can't convince Montgomery to sign with Boston, while NESN's top sponsor is Jordan's Furniture (no, I don't work for them -- but Monty should soon, and extend a cut to his agent).

 

I agree also all fans care more about their team this season. However MLB executives who act that way don’t last long. But a King/Duran trade isn’t selling out the Padres’ future. Duran is in MLB already.

 

Montgomery potentially doing Jordan’s Furniture spots actually is a better selling point than any joke suggests…

 

Sox fans have proven they can handle a sub-.500 season or two. We've had 6 of them in 12 years.

 

But it's kind of insulting when the third richest team in the game isn't even motivated by the prospect of one more such season, the third in a row and 7th in 13th seasons, to make a serious effort to do something about it.

[notin]

Sox fans have proven they can handle a sub-.500 season or two. We've had 6 of them in 12 years.

 

But it's kind of insulting when the third richest team in the game isn't even motivated by the prospect of one more such season, the third in a row and 7th in 13th seasons, to make a serious effort to do something about it.

 

They want to be the Cubs.

 

For 108 years, that team was able to put together a roster that was all but eliminated in May, but still sold out every home game from June through October. Heck if they tried to sell tickets on nights there was no game, they could have sold out some of them as well…

[Bellhorn04]

I don't understand why John Henry would put "Transform From Beloved Red Sox Owner to Despised Red Sox Owner" on his bucket list.

[notin]

I don't understand why John Henry would put "Transform From Beloved Red Sox Owner to Despised Red Sox Owner" on his bucket list.

 

 

There’s money in it? And he thinks he can take it with him?

[Bellhorn04]

There’s money in it? And he thinks he can take it with him?

 

A lot of Sox fans in the next world are going to be pissed at him too.

[notin]

A lot of Sox fans in the next world are going to be pissed at him too.

 

No. Where he’s going is only populated by Yankee fans…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't understand why John Henry would put "Transform From Beloved Red Sox Owner to Despised Red Sox Owner" on his bucket list.

 

At first, I thought he was just trying to win a bet with some other bored billionaire, like Mortimer on the old Trading Places movie.

 

But on second thought, maybe he already lost a challenge, and is suffering a long punishment at sub-Murr, sub-Sal levels...

[moonslav59]

I also believe that most Sox fans only care about the here and now, but next year and the year after will soon be the "here and now," again.

 

Building a sustainable system is the best way to keep fans happy for as much and as long as possible.

 

I also agree with Bell that Sox fans are capable of going through a couple bad seasons, here and there, especially if they feel like the future looks brighter.

 

This team has tried to walk the line between rebuilding for tomorrow while trying to make it look like we can compete, each year (in the here and now.) The 2021 season convinced some fans, but more destructively, it convinced management, it could be done.

 

In many ways, a complete teardown is a more effective way to rebuild, but the trade off can mean 2-3 (or more) seasons of really bad here and nows. Trying to avoid this just extended the rebuilding and suffering by the fans.

 

While I do feel like the future looks brighter, these guys have left such a nasty taste in my mouth with all the lies and shams, that it no longer puts a dent in my frustration and feeling of hopelessness.

 

It's not like our roster sucks. It doesn't. In some ways, that's what makes sitting on our hands winter after winter, more painful. I understand the theory of waiting for the best time to pounce on spending large and long on a SP'er, or two. I can see why thinking 2025 or 2026 looks like a better year than now, but had we held a major fire sale in the summer of 2022, I firmly believe that time to "pounce" would have or could have been now.

 

I still think two major SP'er additions makes us a strong WC competitor, and we could have designed those two additions to be projected as still worthy in 2025 and 2026, as well, but now it looks like we will be sitting in limbo for 1-2 or maybe even 3 more years.

 

I'd rather have had 2-3 seasons of 60-65 wins than 6-7 of 75-80 wins.

 

[notin]

At first, I thought he was just trying to win a bet with some other bored billionaire, like Mortimer on the old Trading Places movie.

 

But on second thought, maybe he already lost a challenge, and is suffering a long punishment at sub-Murr, sub-Sal levels...

 

Lesson here: don’t make bets with Steve Cohen…

[mvp 78]

I also believe that most Sox fans only care about the here and now, but next year and the year after will soon be the "here and now," again.

 

Building a sustainable system is the best way to keep fans happy for as much and as long as possible.

 

I also agree with Bell that Sox fans are capable of going through a couple bad seasons, here and there, especially if they feel like the future looks brighter.

 

This team has tried to walk the line between rebuilding for tomorrow while trying to make it look like we can compete, each year (in the here and now.) The 2021 season convinced some fans, but more destructively, it convinced management, it could be done.

 

In many ways, a complete teardown is a more effective way to rebuild, but the trade off can mean 2-3 (or more) seasons of really bad here and nows. Trying to avoid this just extended the rebuilding and suffering by the fans.

 

While I do feel like the future looks brighter, these guys have left such a nasty taste in my mouth with all the lies and shams, that it no longer puts a dent in my frustration and feeling of hopelessness.

 

It's not like our roster sucks. It doesn't. In some ways, that's what makes sitting on our hands winter after winter, more painful. I understand the theory of waiting for the best time to pounce on spending large and long on a SP'er, or two. I can see why thinking 2025 or 2026 looks like a better year than now, but had we held a major fire sale in the summer of 2022, I firmly believe that time to "pounce" would have or could have been now.

 

I still think two major SP'er additions makes us a strong WC competitor, and we could have designed those two additions to be projected as still worthy in 2025 and 2026, as well, but now it looks like we will be sitting in limbo for 1-2 or maybe even 3 more years.

 

I'd rather have had 2-3 seasons of 60-65 wins than 6-7 of 75-80 wins.

 

 

They have sold us on sustainability since the Theo days. We're still waiting on that pipeline to be built.

 

We're past the point of "a couple of bad seasons" when it's 4 of 5 seasons below .500 potentially. Sox haven't been this bad since before 1967!!! The dark days that everyone talked about pre-Impossible Dream are back.

 

They knew a tear down was coming. It should have happened completely and suddenly, not over the course of 4-5 seasons. Just rip the band-aid off.

 

The roster doesn't "suck" but it's not good enough to be a playoff team. It's good enough to be around .500. That's fine for the Marlins, not for the Red Sox.

[mvp 78]

I'm in the Old Red camp in claiming the vast majority of fans actually care more about -- their team, this season -- compared to one iota (or why I oughta) who even think about a player's years of control in the future.

 

I also think Scott Boras is overrated if he can't convince Montgomery to sign with Boston, while NESN's top sponsor is Jordan's Furniture (no, I don't work for them -- but Monty should soon, and extend a cut to his agent).

 

Probably 75% this season and 25% the future of the ballclub, as in how most fans apportion their feelings towards what they care about.

[moonslav59]

They have sold us on sustainability since the Theo days. We're still waiting on that pipeline to be built.

 

We're past the point of "a couple of bad seasons" when it's 4 of 5 seasons below .500 potentially. Sox haven't been this bad since before 1967!!! The dark days that everyone talked about pre-Impossible Dream are back.

 

They knew a tear down was coming. It should have happened completely and suddenly, not over the course of 4-5 seasons. Just rip the band-aid off.

 

The roster doesn't "suck" but it's not good enough to be a playoff team. It's good enough to be around .500. That's fine for the Marlins, not for the Red Sox.

 

I agree with everything, except I'd point out, there was no talk of sustainability, as far as I remember, during the heavy trading period under DD (year 1-3.)

[Dipre]

They have sold us on sustainability since the Theo days. We're still waiting on that pipeline to be built.

 

We're past the point of "a couple of bad seasons" when it's 4 of 5 seasons below .500 potentially. Sox haven't been this bad since before 1967!!! The dark days that everyone talked about pre-Impossible Dream are back.

 

They knew a tear down was coming. It should have happened completely and suddenly, not over the course of 4-5 seasons. Just rip the band-aid off.

 

The roster doesn't "suck" but it's not good enough to be a playoff team. It's good enough to be around .500. That's fine for the Marlins, not for the Red Sox.

 

The sustainability idea is fine, it's the execution that has sucked, and it has sucked because Henry can't make up his goddamn mind. As you say, rip the band aid off and get ta drafting.

[moonslav59]

The sustainability idea is fine, it's the execution that has sucked, and it has sucked because Henry can't make up his goddamn mind. As you say, rip the band aid off and get ta drafting.

 

To me, "ripping the band aid off" means having a fire sale and maybe tanking a year or two.

 

The drafting and developing of pitchers has been a long-standing issue that has yet to be fixed, unless if has begun under Brez, and we have years to wait.

[mvp 78]

The sustainability idea is fine, it's the execution that has sucked, and it has sucked because Henry can't make up his goddamn mind. As you say, rip the band aid off and get ta drafting.

 

They had a really great thing going under Theo, but trashed the whole enterprise after one bad season. It was the dumbest decision Henry ever made. He should have overpaid to keep Theo around and kept Tito as well. Ben single handedly set the org back 5 years with his bad drafting and IFA shenanigans. After a season and a half of bad baseball, Henry decided Ben's build from within approach didn't work (even though we saw additions of Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc.). DD came in and used all the leftover assets to make a push to compete at the MLB level and ignore the farm. This blew up everything that Theo had originally built. Expecting Bloom to come in and fix the farm while competing was kind of foolish. The farm depth has gotten better, but the pitching is still a mess. I'm hopeful that Crag can push the pitching development forward and that the org is back to what it was in the Theo days.

 

You're right, it's like Henry is bipolar or whatever. He just needs to stay out of it IMO. There are too many voices in the FO. Maybe that settles down now that it's Theo and Crag?

[mvp 78]

To me, "ripping the band aid off" means having a fire sale and maybe tanking a year or two.

 

The drafting and developing of pitchers has been a long-standing issue that has yet to be fixed, unless if has begun under Brez, and we have years to wait.

 

The biggest fault we saw last year was that nearly every pitcher sucked once they got to AAA. The AAA catchers were all awful (Scott, Afaro, Hamilton, Hernandez). This year, they are going with some defensive first guys that can actually work with the pitchers and help them develop (Perez, Heineman, Kolozsvary). They also have new pitching and bullpen coaches for AAA in '24. For reference, there were no changes for the pitching coaches at Portland or Greenville.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

You're right, it's like Henry is bipolar or whatever. He just needs to stay out of it IMO. There are too many voices in the FO. Maybe that settles down now that it's Theo and Crag?

 

Watching the national pastime last night, the one parallel to the Red Sox was ten guys standing around a ref flipping a coin. That's how the front office decides every trade deadline: "heads we buy, tails we sell"... until Henry walks in and says, "Head will roll if you spend."