Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[notin]

Draft a college pitcher? Other teams are able to develop pitching. The Sox are not able to develop pitching and part of that reason may be that they have punted pitching at the top of the draft.

 

But that all predates the mass-drafting of shortstops, right?

 

They took pitchers and had some successes and more failures. Should they have just kept beating that horse beyond death until it was a pile of horse molecules? Or maybe tried a new approach?

[mvp 78]

Roger Clemens - 1st round

Bruce Hurst - 1st round

Aaron Sele - 1st round

Curt Schilling - 2nd round

Jon Lester - 2nd round

Clay Buchholz - 1st round

 

If they want the next homegrown starter, it may have to come from the top of the draft. You'll miss on a pick or two, but it would be worth it in the end.

[notin]

Highest drafted pitcher each draft:

23: 4th Duffy

22: 3rd Rogers

21: 4th Rodriguez Cruz

20: 4th Wu Yellend

19: 3rd Zeferjahn

18: 3rd Feltman

17: 1st Houck

16: 1st Groome (Anderson drafted in 3rd Round)

15: 6th Lakins

14: 3rd Cosart

 

Only two pitchers drafted in the first two rounds of the draft over the past decade. Only 7 drafted in the first 3 rounds. Where are the high octane arms going to come from then? Just the DSL?

 

 

And from 2010 through 2013, they took six pitchers in the first round (counting supplemental picks) and the biggest success story was Matt Barnes…

[mvp 78]

Yes if you assume the Sox only started drafting in 2020.

 

They’ve taken many pitchers highly in the drafted and gotten nothing or close to it from plenty of them…

 

Many? It really doesn't seem like it when you go draft to draft.

 

They also take a s*** ton a hitters that they have gotten noting from the Cam Cannons, the Kolbrin Viteks, the Deven Marreros, the Jason Places. It doesn't mean you stop drafting pitchers because a few don't work out like Teddy Stankiewicz or whatever.

[notin]

Roger Clemens - 1st round

Bruce Hurst - 1st round

Aaron Sele - 1st round

Curt Schilling - 2nd round

Jon Lester - 2nd round

Clay Buchholz - 1st round

 

If they want the next homegrown starter, it may have to come from the top of the draft. You'll miss on a pick or two, but it would be worth it in the end.

 

IFA seems to be just as good if not better…

[Bellhorn04]

And from 2010 through 2013, they took six pitchers in the first round (counting supplemental picks) and the biggest success story was Matt Barnes…

 

If other teams are doing better at it, maybe it's our scouting and evaluation that's the problem and not the strategy.

[notin]

Many? It really doesn't seem like it when you go draft to draft.

 

They also take a s*** ton a hitters that they have gotten noting from the Cam Cannons, the Kolbrin Viteks, the Deven Marreros, the Jason Places. It doesn't mean you stop drafting pitchers because a few don't work out like Teddy Stankiewicz or whatever.

 

 

But trying to force the pitcher into the draft because you think you need one causes you to pass on superior talent. Essentially you’re talking about drafting position over talent. Might as well justify taking Trey Ball over Aaron Judge…

[mvp 78]

And from 2010 through 2013, they took six pitchers in the first round (counting supplemental picks) and the biggest success story was Matt Barnes…

 

Ranaudo reached the bigs. Owens reached the bigs. Brian Johnson reached the bigs. Pat Light reached the bigs. That's more than you can say for a lot of the hitters they drafted. Each pitcher they drafted aside from the stupid Trey Ball pick actually did something meaningful with their career in that time period.

[mvp 78]

But that all predates the mass-drafting of shortstops, right?

 

They took pitchers and had some successes and more failures. Should they have just kept beating that horse beyond death until it was a pile of horse molecules? Or maybe tried a new approach?

 

All I'm saying is that Bloom's approach of punting on pitching during the draft was not helping the lack of pitching in the farm system. It made the problem a lot worse. If the top of your board is always position players, they will always need to acquire high octane arms by other means. However, they have no really concrete plan to do so. We've seen the rotation teardown since Dombrowski left. There is no cohesive plan year to year.

[notin]

If other teams are doing better at it, maybe it's our scouting and evaluation that's the problem and not the strategy.

 

Maybe.

 

But I doubt they went stagnant with the scouting and development processes over the decade plus between Lester and Houck.

 

Bloom tried something new. Maybe he thought of converting athletes. Maybe he thought he could trade better players for pitching. Maybe both.

 

But the act of simply drafting pitchers because you need them has been a failure far more often than not..

[notin]

All I'm saying is that Bloom's approach of punting on pitching during the draft was not helping the lack of pitching in the farm system. It made the problem a lot worse. If the top of your board is always position players, they will always need to acquire high octane arms by other means. However, they have no really concrete plan to do so. We've seen the rotation teardown since Dombrowski left. There is no cohesive plan year to year.

 

And that can be done. You can’t count on repeatedly finding Garret Whitlocks in Rule 5. But maybe some of these top tier shortstops are tradable for an arm or two.

[mvp 78]

IFA seems to be just as good if not better…

 

Those guys are younger when they sign and reach the Rule 5 issues we've seen with Mata/Wikelman/Perales that you don't get as bad from drafted players. It's not a safe bet.

[mvp 78]

Maybe.

 

But I doubt they went stagnant with the scouting and development processes over the decade plus between Lester and Houck.

 

Bloom tried something new. Maybe he thought of converting athletes. Maybe he thought he could trade better players for pitching. Maybe both.

 

But the act of simply drafting pitchers because you need them has been a failure far more often than not..

 

If he thought he could trade for pitching, he never did so.

 

The act of trading ANY PLAYER results in a failure far more often than not since it's a lottery ticket. Hitters flame out. Pitchers flame out. Red Sox have just chosen to punt on drafting pitchers at the top of the draft in recent years. Whether it's truly a mistake is born out in what the rotation looks like in BOS each year. So far, it's been ugly.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

And that can be done. You can’t count on repeatedly finding Garret Whitlocks in Rule 5. But maybe some of these top tier shortstops are tradable for an arm or two.

 

Haven't we been saying that since Bloom sent Graterol back after confusing his medicals with a stanza of "Beowulf"?

 

Just give us something, Red Sox, in a trade that doesn't always have to include a starting big league outfielder... There's got to be some arms available that are more than appetizers (though if it has to be just a few lopped limbs of calamari, at least throw in a few hot cherry peppers).

[notin]

If he thought he could trade for pitching, he never did so.

 

The act of trading ANY PLAYER results in a failure far more often than not since it's a lottery ticket. Hitters flame out. Pitchers flame out. Red Sox have just chosen to punt on drafting pitchers at the top of the draft in recent years. Whether it's truly a mistake is born out in what the rotation looks like in BOS each year. So far, it's been ugly.

 

Well, so far, only Bobby Miller and Jared Hicks are the high draft pick pitchers Bloom passed on to reach MLB. (Spencer Strider and Bryce Elder were 4th and 5th rounders everyone was passing on and now clearly regrets.) It might be a mistake, but we have all seen enough history to know that since the draft is a crapshoot, take the player you like best regardless of position, and let it all get sorted out later.

 

I’m sure there are plenty of stories about teams drafting pitching because they needed pitching and ultimately passing on a player who turned out to be an All Star. Off the top of my head, Gord Ash wanting pitching and taking Rickey Romero over Troy Tulowitzki. I’m sure there are lots of others.

 

The Sox have a dearth of good pitching prospects now. But when was the last time they had an abundance of them? Do we have to go all the way back to Suppan, Pavano and Rose?

[moonslav59]

Pivetta and Winckowski have about the same trade value. I'd deal Winck first. He's an expendable bullpen arm IMO.

 

He's also got way more years of control.

 

I'd rather trade Pivetta, and I have been one of his biggest supporters.

[moonslav59]

yeah, their entire strategy of not signing pitchers over 30 to long term deals, not paying top dollar for TOTR pitchers and drafting shortstops instead of pitchers is about f***ing stupid.

 

I totally disagree.

 

Draft the best player at every pick.

[moonslav59]

Highest drafted pitcher each draft:

23: 4th Duffy

22: 3rd Rogers

21: 4th Rodriguez Cruz

20: 4th Wu Yellend

19: 3rd Zeferjahn

18: 3rd Feltman

17: 1st Houck

16: 1st Groome (Anderson drafted in 3rd Round)

15: 6th Lakins

14: 3rd Cosart

 

Only two pitchers drafted in the first two rounds of the draft over the past decade. Only 7 drafted in the first 3 rounds. Where are the high octane arms going to come from then? Just the DSL?

 

Look at our top bonus money for IFAs. Not many pitchers there, either.

[mvp 78]

Look at our top bonus money for IFAs. Not many pitchers there, either.

 

23 - Top 3 were SS

22 - Top 2 were SS

21 - Bleis only guy over 1M

20 - nothing!

19 - Liu was 2nd at 750k

18 - All OF flops

17 - Flores and SS

16 - LOL

15 - Nothing of note

14 - Anderson Espinosa 1.8M, Christopher Acosta 1.5M (SoxProspects Pod fave)

13 - Hinojosa 4M

...

08 - Tazawa 1.8M

06 - DiceK 2M

 

They just haven't really spent big money (1M+) on IFA guys. They've certainly struck out on lots of hitters they've shelled out to in the IFA market so it's not a fear of getting burned.

[mvp 78]

Well, so far, only Bobby Miller and Jared Hicks are the high draft pick pitchers Bloom passed on to reach MLB. (Spencer Strider and Bryce Elder were 4th and 5th rounders everyone was passing on and now clearly regrets.) It might be a mistake, but we have all seen enough history to know that since the draft is a crapshoot, take the player you like best regardless of position, and let it all get sorted out later.

 

I’m sure there are plenty of stories about teams drafting pitching because they needed pitching and ultimately passing on a player who turned out to be an All Star. Off the top of my head, Gord Ash wanting pitching and taking Rickey Romero over Troy Tulowitzki. I’m sure there are lots of others.

 

The Sox have a dearth of good pitching prospects now. But when was the last time they had an abundance of them? Do we have to go all the way back to Suppan, Pavano and Rose?

 

Not sure what you have against young Guardian pitchers like Logan Allen and Tanner Bibee that Bloom also passed on.

 

The Sox have a lot of mediocre pitching prospects. None of them have a ceiling higher than 4th in a rotation. Even Perales and Wikelman are likely bullpen guys. Which guys are you high on that you believe will impact the Sox rotation someday? The only guys that are interesting to me are Monegro and Early, but I don't think they are TOTR guys. I'm not sure they even have one in the system, including Bello.

[jad]

Haven't we been saying that since Bloom sent Graterol back after confusing his medicals with a stanza of "Beowulf"?

 

Just give us something, Red Sox, in a trade that doesn't always have to include a starting big league outfielder... There's got to be some arms available that are more than appetizers (though if it has to be just a few lopped limbs of calamari, at least throw in a few hot cherry peppers).

 

Saeg hwaet??

Edited December 22, 2023 by jad

[notin]

Not sure what you have against young Guardian pitchers like Logan Allen and Tanner Bibee that Bloom also passed on.

 

The Sox have a lot of mediocre pitching prospects. None of them have a ceiling higher than 4th in a rotation. Even Perales and Wikelman are likely bullpen guys. Which guys are you high on that you believe will impact the Sox rotation someday? The only guys that are interesting to me are Monegro and Early, but I don't think they are TOTR guys. I'm not sure they even have one in the system, including Bello.

 

I limited my selections to rounds 1 and 2. You know, when you had limited opportunities to take the alleged elite talents. Everyone passed on Logan Allen 15 times.

 

As for their limited pitching prospects, I agree. I never said they were stacked. I am saying that situation greatly predates the mass drafting of shortstops and isn’t much differing at all from when they did take pitchers with high draft picks…

[mvp 78]

I limited my selections to rounds 1 and 2. You know, when you had limited opportunities to take the alleged elite talents. Everyone passed on Logan Allen 15 times.

 

As for their limited pitching prospects, I agree. I never said they were stacked. I am saying that situation greatly predates the mass drafting of shortstops and isn’t much differing at all from when they did take pitchers with high draft picks…

 

Logan Allen, the 2020 Draft pick in the 2nd round that the Sox played against last year you friggin goofball.

[notin]

Logan Allen, the 2020 Draft pick in the 2nd round that the Sox played against last year you friggin goofball.

 

He was also drafted in the 15th round once.

 

So Allen, Hicks and Miller were the big losses. Of course they we’re all in a draft where the Sox only had one pick in the top 88 selections.

[Dipre]

I totally disagree.

 

Draft the best player at every pick.

 

Absolutely.

[Bellhorn04]

I totally disagree.

 

Draft the best player at every pick.

 

Including if they're a pitcher, right?

[moonslav59]

Including if they're a pitcher, right?

 

Of course!

[Dipre]

Including if they're a pitcher, right?

 

Especially if they are pitchers, but that usually doesn't happen.

[Bellhorn04]

Logan Allen, the 2020 Draft pick in the 2nd round that the Sox played against last year you friggin goofball.

 

I submit that he should be referred to as Logan Allen II.

 

Logan Allen I pitched for Cleveland in 2022.

Logan Allen II pitched for Cleveland in 2023.

 

That is some crazy randomness.

[Randy Red Sox]

I totally disagree.

 

Draft the best player at every pick.

 

like Nick Yorke?