Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[mvp 78]

Seems like a plan to me.

 

It's definitely a better rotation than 2022 in theory/on paper. I'm a lot higher on Crawford than I was 12 months ago. I don't think he has an amazing ceiling, but he's a fine 4/5 starter for now. Bello is still more of a mid-rotation arm unless he can reach that next level. Giolito and Montas could be swayed by shorter contracts and the newly revamped Sox pitching program.

[mvp 78]

I've been arguing 3 SP'ers added makes the most sense and creates a top 3 pen in MLB, but almost everyone disagreed.

 

In a perfect world, we'd still rather have Yamamoto instead. I think it's just looking like the Sox need to switch to plan B, C, D...

[Bellhorn04]

Certainly, that makes sense, too.

 

I guess what "blows my socks off" means is what matters.

 

If Snell is saying $264M/8, you'd offer that? ($33M x 8)

 

If Monty is saying $217M/7, you'd do it? ($31M x 7)

 

They may get more than this by waiting. Maybe not.

 

The prospect of Montgomery getting 3 times as much as Gray is madness in itself.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't know if Cora would ok trading Pivetta.

 

If it's true that AC has other clubs interested in paying him Counsell dough, then maybe no other player is responsible for upping his profile so much. Remember, when the Sox had the hottest team at the start of last summer, it was Pivetta as Bulk Guy who was making Cora's opener rotation succeed.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't know if Cora would ok trading Pivetta.

 

If it's true that AC has other clubs interested in paying him Counsell dough, then maybe no other player is responsible for upping his profile so much. Remember, when the Sox had the hottest team at the start of last summer, it was Pivetta as Bulk Guy who was making Cora's opener rotation succeed.

 

Who's trading Pivetta?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Who's trading Pivetta?

 

moon man -- it's always his fault

[mvp 78]

The prospect of Montgomery getting 3 times as much as Gray is madness in itself.

 

Age.

[mvp 78]

I've been arguing 3 SP'ers added makes the most sense and creates a top 3 pen in MLB, but almost everyone disagreed.

 

I'd like better quality than the 3 you listed, but your suggestion will likely be better than what I expect we end up with in 2 pitchers.

 

Signing 3 might also allow us to trade Pivetta, Crawford, Houck, Whitlock or Winckowski for a really good 2Bman or in a package for a 2Bman and catcher or an even better pitcher.

 

Would the Sox even consider:

90/5 Imanaga

63/3 Stroman

36/2 Giolito

 

That's a total of $56M AAV, which puts us right at the first tax line.

 

We could afford an upgrade at 2B and C and stay under the second line, or trade a pitcher for a 2Bman and try to stay under the line for a big splurge in 25.

 

I don't know why you'd trade Pivetta or what you'd actually get back. He's good for what he is for one more year. I think you could just deal Winckowski for Polanco and be done with it. I don't know if they need an upgrade at C with Teel coming. Wong is fine for now.

[mvp 78]

moon man -- it's always his fault

 

He's wheelin' and dealin' like a madman.

[notin]

Age.

 

Also, beauty…

[mvp 78]

Also, beauty…

 

Beauty is secondary though! Shouldn't come first!

[moonslav59]

The prospect of Montgomery getting 3 times as much as Gray is madness in itself.

 

Agreed.

 

I really thought Gray should be a high priority, despite his age. The Sox seem to want to avoid longer term contracts, so in that sense he should have been a serious target. I think the avoidance of the over 30 SP'er to anything longer than 1 year has hurt the Sox strategy for way too long.

[notin]

Beauty is secondary though! Shouldn't come first!

 

Unless you don’t have any. Then suddenly it gets tap important real fast…

[moonslav59]

He's wheelin' and dealin' like a madman.

 

So, Pivetta for Polanco (or someone else) is wheeling like a madman, but Wink for Polanco isn't?

 

I just mentioned all our swingmen as possible trade bait, only after we theoretically added 3 SP'ers.

 

I do think Pivetta has real trade value, and with 4 long men (Pivetta, Crawford, Houck and Whitlock, and I mentioned all of them) we could afford to trade one for a 2Bman (or catcher or in a package for a better pitcher.)

 

It's not crazy talk.

 

All pitchers who have proven they can give a lot of innings at about a 4,25 ERA will be sought after, this winter. Pivetta proved that more than any of the other 3.

 

Ho many pitchers in MLB have over 140 IP for 3 straight years and an ERA+ on the right side of 100?

 

Nick has 477 IP, a 4.39 ERA (103 ERA+) and an FIP of 4.24.

Certainly not great, but many teams would really like their 3, 4 or 5 man to do that for them.

 

If we add 3 SP'ers, why not trade from our depth to improve a higher need area?

[mvp 78]

Unless you don’t have any. Then suddenly it gets tap important real fast…

 

Jimmy Soul would disagree with you...

 

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

Never make a pretty woman your wife

So for my personal point of view

Get an ugly girl to marry you

 

Say man! Hey baby!

I saw your wife the other day!

Yeah? Yeah, an' she's ugly!

Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!

Yeah, alright!

[mvp 78]

So, Pivetta for Polanco (or someone else) is wheeling like a madman, but Wink for Polanco isn't?

 

I just mentioned all our swingmen as possible trade bait, only after we theoretically added 3 SP'ers.

 

I do think Pivetta has real trade value, and with 4 long men (Pivetta, Crawford, Houck and Whitlock, and I mentioned all of them) we could afford to trade one for a 2Bman (or catcher or in a package for a better pitcher.)

 

It's not crazy talk.

 

All pitchers who have proven they can give a lot of innings at about a 4,25 ERA will be sought after, this winter. Pivetta proved that more than any of the other 3.

 

Ho many pitchers in MLB have over 140 IP for 3 straight years and an ERA+ on the right side of 100?

 

Nick has 477 IP, a 4.39 ERA (103 ERA+) and an FIP of 4.24.

Certainly not great, but many teams would really like their 3, 4 or 5 man to do that for them.

 

If we add 3 SP'ers, why not trade from our depth to improve a higher need area?

 

Pivetta and Winckowski have about the same trade value. I'd deal Winck first. He's an expendable bullpen arm IMO.

[Duran Is The Man]

Agreed.

 

I really thought Gray should be a high priority, despite his age. The Sox seem to want to avoid longer term contracts, so in that sense he should have been a serious target. I think the avoidance of the over 30 SP'er to anything longer than 1 year has hurt the Sox strategy for way too long.

 

yeah, their entire strategy of not signing pitchers over 30 to long term deals, not paying top dollar for TOTR pitchers and drafting shortstops instead of pitchers is about f***ing stupid.

[notin]

Jimmy Soul would disagree with you...

 

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

Never make a pretty woman your wife

So for my personal point of view

Get an ugly girl to marry you

 

Say man! Hey baby!

I saw your wife the other day!

Yeah? Yeah, an' she's ugly!

Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!

Yeah, alright!

 

So you’re relying on the testimony of a convicted drug dealer who died young from his self-abusive habits?

[notin]

Pivetta and Winckowski have about the same trade value. I'd deal Winck first. He's an expendable bullpen arm IMO.

 

But he was Cora’s Go-To guy all through April and May!

[notin]

yeah, their entire strategy of not signing pitchers over 30 to long term deals, not paying top dollar for TOTR pitchers and drafting shortstops instead of pitchers is about f***ing stupid.

 

Why?

 

Those shortstops are usually just the best players in their team and many of them switch to other positions. Including pitching.

 

Trevor Hoffman, Joe Nathan, Bret Saberhagen and Matt Bush were all drafted as shortstops, for example. And those are just the ones off the top of my head…

Edited December 21, 2023 by notin

[mvp 78]

So you’re relying on the testimony of a convicted drug dealer who died young from his self-abusive habits?

 

He was killed by the CIA for exposing these myths about beauty.

[mvp 78]

But he was Cora’s Go-To guy all through April and May!

 

Don't care.

[Duran Is The Man]

Why?

 

Those shortstops are usually just the best players in their team and many of them switch to other positions. Including pitching.

 

Trevor Hoffman, Joe Nathan and Matt Bush were all drafted as shortstops, for example. And those are just the ones off the top of my head…

 

maybe because they keep finishing last, they need 2-3 starters RIGHT NOW and, as someone pointed out earlier, they don't have a single pitching prospect in the Top 100. i guess they think Cora is going to s*** a couple of starters.

[mvp 78]

Why?

 

Those shortstops are usually just the best players in their team and many of them switch to other positions. Including pitching.

 

Trevor Hoffman, Joe Nathan and Matt Bush were all drafted as shortstops, for example. And those are just the ones off the top of my head…

 

The hobby horses must be ridden damnit....

[Bellhorn04]

Why?

 

Those shortstops are usually just the best players in their team and many of them switch to other positions. Including pitching.

 

Trevor Hoffman, Joe Nathan and Matt Bush were all drafted as shortstops, for example. And those are just the ones off the top of my head…

 

My answer to the why is:

 

1) The Red Sox adhere closely to this strategy.

2) The Red Sox have s***** pitching and are constantly forced to go outside the organization to get pitching.

3) These two facts may be related.

[notin]

He was killed by the CIA for exposing these myths about beauty.

 

The Cosmetics Industry Alliance?

[notin]

The hobby horses must be ridden damnit....

 

Is the success rate of high school pitchers so high that they must be prioritized?

[mvp 78]

maybe because they keep finishing last, they need 2-3 starters RIGHT NOW and, as someone pointed out earlier, they don't have a single pitching prospect in the Top 100. i guess they think Cora is going to s*** a couple of starters.

 

Highest drafted pitcher each draft:

23: 4th Duffy

22: 3rd Rogers

21: 4th Rodriguez Cruz

20: 4th Wu Yellend

19: 3rd Zeferjahn

18: 3rd Feltman

17: 1st Houck

16: 1st Groome (Anderson drafted in 3rd Round)

15: 6th Lakins

14: 3rd Cosart

 

Only two pitchers drafted in the first two rounds of the draft over the past decade. Only 7 drafted in the first 3 rounds. Where are the high octane arms going to come from then? Just the DSL?

[mvp 78]

Is the success rate of high school pitchers so high that they must be prioritized?

 

Draft a college pitcher? Other teams are able to develop pitching. The Sox are not able to develop pitching and part of that reason may be that they have punted pitching at the top of the draft.

[notin]

My answer to the why is:

 

1) The Red Sox adhere closely to this strategy.

2) The Red Sox have s***** pitching and are constantly forced to go outside the organization to get pitching.

3) These two facts may be related.

 

 

Yes if you assume the Sox only started drafting in 2020.

 

They’ve taken many pitchers highly in the drafted and gotten nothing or close to it from plenty of them…