Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[notin]

Yes sir. Showed up late to games. Wasn't getting work in.

 

Why was he late? Apathy?

[mvp 78]

I believe once was for not running hard enough, and the other was showing up late. Call it what you want, but either way he was benched twice.

 

Per Cora, it wasn't like he just showed up late once, he was always showing up late and they could never get him with the program.

[Old Red]

JBJ’s defense became a much bigger deal when he dropped that toe tap and started to hit.

 

I don’t mind watching my #9 hitter strike out or hit weak grounders nearly as much as I mind my “up the middle” fail to get to seemingly routine or makable plays, or as much as I mind watching innings extended by a glut of errors…

 

You made all kinds of excuses for JBJ when he couldn’t hit in Milwaukee, but the thing is he never hit much again after he left Boston.

[notin]

Jeter always posted a pretty good WAR. That supports my point. Compare him to Andrelton Simmons and see.

 

Jeter had 71 bWAR in roughly 2750 games.

 

Simmons 37 bWAR in 1225 games.

 

That doesn’t support your point…

[mvp 78]

Why was he late? Apathy?

 

That's a Verdugo question? He made an excuse about his family issues, but Cora stated that it's always been a problem with him. Players have said that he's a HOF talent, that he just doesn't take the game seriously.

[Old Red]

Per Cora, it wasn't like he just showed up late once, he was always showing up late and they could never get him with the program.

 

I would call that attitude. Like I said Cora doesn’t bench many players.

[mvp 78]

JBJ’s defense became a much bigger deal when he dropped that toe tap and started to hit.

 

I don’t mind watching my #9 hitter strike out or hit weak grounders nearly as much as I mind my “up the middle” fail to get to seemingly routine or makable plays, or as much as I mind watching innings extended by a glut of errors…

 

JBJ would start to hit and then stop just as quickly as he started. He would have one great month every season and go back to suckitude. After leaving BOS, he never was able to generate those hot streaks again to even out the poor performances.

[moonslav59]

I would call that attitude. Like I said Cora doesn’t bench many players.

 

A lot of that depends on what we have on the bench. Our bench has not looked very good from 2019-2022.

[Old Red]

A lot of that depends on what we have on the bench. Our bench has not looked very good from 2019-2022.

 

I don’t think Dugy getting benched by Cora has anything to do with who, or who wasn’t on the bench.

[mvp 78]

Jeter had 71 bWAR in roughly 2750 games.

 

Simmons 37 bWAR in 1225 games.

 

That doesn’t support your point…

 

Simmons through age 28 was on track to have a better HOF candidacy than Vizquel, but he fell apart right after.

[mvp 78]

I don’t think Dugy getting benched by Cora has anything to do with who, or who wasn’t on the bench.

 

Cora benched Verdugo when they still wanted to win. The first benching was against a RHP and Refsnyder was subbed in. YUCK. That was clearly sending a message and not about who was sitting on the bench because Refsnyder can't hit RHP for s***.

[moonslav59]

Nick Martinez to Cincy for $26M/2 with opt out after 1.

[notin]

You made all kinds of excuses for JBJ when he couldn’t hit in Milwaukee, but the thing is he never hit much again after he left Boston.

 

I didn’t make excuses. I said he was a good bounce back candidate and didn’t mind the trade. That’s not the same at all…

[moonslav59]

I don’t think Dugy getting benched by Cora has anything to do with who, or who wasn’t on the bench.

 

Agreed. I wasn't talking about Dugy.

 

Our bench has been so bad, we've hardly given Cora any options.

[notin]

Simmons through age 28 was on track to have a better HOF candidacy than Vizquel, but he fell apart right after.

 

His career wasn’t as long, but he did compile bWAR at a faster rate than the superior hitter/worse fielder…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

I don’t mind watching my #9 hitter strike out or hit weak grounders nearly as much as I mind my “up the middle” fail to get to seemingly routine or makable plays, or as much as I mind watching innings extended by a glut of errors…

 

This sentence subtly sums up the Red Sox' recent problem with their viewing audience. Baseball fans know good hitting is more important, but nothing turns us off more than bad defense.

 

Ironically, good pitching and defense keeps you in a game longer -- but not necessarily from an entertainment standpoint. The average fan craves more "action" than a diving catch...

 

Team builders also know that's true, but it is very rare for a club to bash its way to contention with lousy fielders. That's why true full-throttle teams acquire a Doug Mientkiewicz and a Pokey Reese to use as late-game gloves to nail down victories. No one puts all their best bats on the field at the end of close games. It's not croquet.

[Old Red]

I didn’t make excuses. I said he was a good bounce back candidate and didn’t mind the trade. That’s not the same at all…

 

You said he didn’t hit in Milwaukee, because of facing different pitchers in a different league in different parks. He never hit much again after he left Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn’t make excuses. I said he was a good bounce back candidate and didn’t mind the trade. That’s not the same at all…

 

But you also continue to say you were OK with his performance in 2022.

[Dipre]

This sentence subtly sums up the Red Sox' recent problem with their viewing audience. Baseball fans know good hitting is more important, but nothing turns us off more than bad defense.

 

Ironically, good pitching and defense keeps you in a game longer -- but not necessarily from an entertainment standpoint. The average fan craves more "action" than a diving catch...

 

Team builders also know that's true, but it is very rare for a club to bash its way to contention with lousy fielders. That's why true full-throttle teams acquire a Doug Mientkiewicz and a Pokey Reese to use as late-game gloves to nail down victories. No one puts all their best bats on the field at the end of close games. It's not croquet.

 

No, it is not. But they usually get exposed on a run through the playoffs. Which is why they add high-quality gloves around the edges of the roster. But teams with awful defense have made deep runs.

[Bellhorn04]

Team builders also know that's true, but it is very rare for a club to bash its way to contention with lousy fielders. That's why true full-throttle teams acquire a Doug Mientkiewicz and a Pokey Reese to use as late-game gloves to nail down victories. No one puts all their best bats on the field at the end of close games. It's not croquet.

 

You keep your best bats in the game if you're behind or tied. The designated fielders only come in when you have that lead to protect.

[Bellhorn04]

Jeter had 71 bWAR in roughly 2750 games.

 

Simmons 37 bWAR in 1225 games.

 

That doesn’t support your point…

 

Simmons's fWAR is only 25...wow, quite the variance, especially for a position player.

[mvp 78]

Simmons's fWAR is only 25...wow, quite the variance, especially for a position player.

 

It feels right though vs the 37 badWAR?

[Bellhorn04]

It feels right though vs the 37 badWAR?

 

I think so.

[notin]

Simmons's fWAR is only 25...wow, quite the variance, especially for a position player.

 

At the very least, this variance shows the advantage of offense over defense isn’t as definitive as once suspected…

[notin]

You said he didn’t hit in Milwaukee, because of facing different pitchers in a different league in different parks. He never hit much again after he left Boston.

 

It was absolutely a reasonable theory. I’ve learned you don’t give up on a player after one bad season…

[Old Red]

It was absolutely a reasonable theory. I’ve learned you don’t give up on a player after one bad season…

 

Reasonable with some players yes, but JBJ was not one of them, and that’s why he’s retired at 33.

[Bellhorn04]

At the very least, this variance shows the advantage of offense over defense isn’t as definitive as once suspected…

 

No doubt shortstop is one position where an elite fielder can be about as valuable as an elite hitter.

[moonslav59]

It was absolutely a reasonable theory. I’ve learned you don’t give up on a player after one bad season…

 

Bounce backs do happen, all the time, but to me, JBJ was never a strong candidate for one. One could look at his career up to that trade and easily think 891 PAs of 2015 to 2016 plus the short 2020 season of 217 PAs were more of the outlier than his not-so-good seasons on O.

 

OPS+

53 from '13-'14 (530 PAs)

118 rom '15-'16 (891 PAs)

90 from '17-'19 (1643 PAs) Actually a 90 OPS+ with his defense amounted to a +8.0 bWAR

116 in 2020 (217 PAs)

35 in 2021 (428 PAs)

 

By and large, the low OPS+ were larger sample sizes (about 2600 PAs to 1100.)

 

I hated the trade, at the time. I still do, although I do not think keeping Renfroe would have made a big difference, in hindsight. (They should have just had Dugo in RF and Renfroe in LF, to start out- like I said way back when.)

 

 

[moonslav59]

No doubt shortstop is one position where an elite fielder can be about as valuable as an elite hitter.

 

Indeed.

[moonslav59]

Reasonable with some players yes, but JBJ was not one of them, and that’s why he’s retired at 33.

 

Agreed, but it was not a certainty, he'd retire at 33, back when we traded for him.