Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[mvp 78]

Watching the national pastime last night, the one parallel to the Red Sox was ten guys standing around a ref flipping a coin. That's how the front office decides every trade deadline: "heads we buy, tails we sell"... until Henry walks in and says, "Head will roll if you spend."

 

And then Henry passing the buck if it fails after the fact. "It was them, not me."

[Larry Cook]

If the budget is indeed 200 million, then we have a little tiny bit more to cut. This means trades are needed. Is bres-slow waiting for spring training injuries on other teams to unclog our outfield and find a starter or two?

[Dipre]

They had a really great thing going under Theo, but trashed the whole enterprise after one bad season. It was the dumbest decision Henry ever made. He should have overpaid to keep Theo around and kept Tito as well. Ben single handedly set the org back 5 years with his bad drafting and IFA shenanigans. After a season and a half of bad baseball, Henry decided Ben's build from within approach didn't work (even though we saw additions of Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc.). DD came in and used all the leftover assets to make a push to compete at the MLB level and ignore the farm. This blew up everything that Theo had originally built. Expecting Bloom to come in and fix the farm while competing was kind of foolish. The farm depth has gotten better, but the pitching is still a mess. I'm hopeful that Crag can push the pitching development forward and that the org is back to what it was in the Theo days.

 

You're right, it's like Henry is bipolar or whatever. He just needs to stay out of it IMO. There are too many voices in the FO. Maybe that settles down now that it's Theo and Crag?

 

If it doesn't, then Henry is definitely an idiot. He gave Theo *partnership stake* in a multi-billion dollar business conglomerate to basically come fix this mess. With the money he gave Theo, he better let him cook.

[moonslav59]

They had a really great thing going under Theo, but trashed the whole enterprise after one bad season. It was the dumbest decision Henry ever made. He should have overpaid to keep Theo around and kept Tito as well. Ben single handedly set the org back 5 years with his bad drafting and IFA shenanigans. After a season and a half of bad baseball, Henry decided Ben's build from within approach didn't work (even though we saw additions of Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc.). DD came in and used all the leftover assets to make a push to compete at the MLB level and ignore the farm. This blew up everything that Theo had originally built. Expecting Bloom to come in and fix the farm while competing was kind of foolish. The farm depth has gotten better, but the pitching is still a mess. I'm hopeful that Crag can push the pitching development forward and that the org is back to what it was in the Theo days.

 

You're right, it's like Henry is bipolar or whatever. He just needs to stay out of it IMO. There are too many voices in the FO. Maybe that settles down now that it's Theo and Crag?

 

Theo, later admitted that he and the organization had gotten away from their philosophy and were relying too much on FAs and trading prospects, his last 1-2 years.

 

I'm not sure, if he realized that after leaving, of if he knew it, at the time. Also, what would he have done about it?

 

He did leave a very nice core, so had he stayed, I can't imagine him doing any worse than Ben. I doubt he'd have pulled out all the stops, like DD.

 

It appears I am not the only one doing some "what ifs..."

[mvp 78]

If the budget is indeed 200 million, then we have a little tiny bit more to cut. This means trades are needed. Is bres-slow waiting for spring training injuries on other teams to unclog our outfield and find a starter or two?

 

I think the budget is supposed to be 215M, or that is what was suggested.

 

Cots has them at 190M as of today.

[mvp 78]

If it doesn't, then Henry is definitely an idiot. He gave Theo *partnership stake* in a multi-billion dollar business conglomerate to basically come fix this mess. With the money he gave Theo, he better let him cook.

 

I don't think Theo will be cooking, but letting Theo being the sounding board for Crag. Maybe Crag gets more of a chance to run with stuff and can work directly with Theo rather than having to worry about going to Henry? IDK. It's hard to know what the inner workings will be. I doubt Theo will be doing any day to day stuff aside from Executive Mgmt.

[moonslav59]

I don't think Theo will be cooking, but letting Theo being the sounding board for Crag. Maybe Crag gets more of a chance to run with stuff and can work directly with Theo rather than having to worry about going to Henry? IDK. It's hard to know what the inner workings will be. I doubt Theo will be doing any day to day stuff aside from Executive Mgmt.

 

They need to cut Kennedy out of the decision loop. If they replace him with Theo, in that regard, it should help, but we still have too many hands on the handle stirring the pot.

[Dipre]

I don't think Theo will be cooking, but letting Theo being the sounding board for Crag. Maybe Crag gets more of a chance to run with stuff and can work directly with Theo rather than having to worry about going to Henry? IDK. It's hard to know what the inner workings will be. I doubt Theo will be doing any day to day stuff aside from Executive Mgmt.

 

Merely by getting Henry to sign the checks and let Breslow do his job, he'll be cooking with lotsa seasoning.

[mvp 78]

Theo, later admitted that he and the organization had gotten away from their philosophy and were relying too much on FAs and trading prospects, his last 1-2 years.

 

I'm not sure, if he realized that after leaving, of if he knew it, at the time. Also, what would he have done about it?

 

He did leave a very nice core, so had he stayed, I can't imagine him doing any worse than Ben. I doubt he'd have pulled out all the stops, like DD.

 

It appears I am not the only one doing some "what ifs..."

 

After getting the 2nd WS, I think he started chasing the dragon. That 2007 team was home grown that included a trade for an ace pitcher for a prospect. I don't think he really got out of whack and it's really overstated what happened in 2011. I think some of the players just aged out and there were a few bad drafts 08-10. I think it was all fixable. Just signing Crawford wasn't the end of the world. Even trading for AGon is something that a big club like the Red Sox should be able to do. We saw that they were able to compete for a WS two years later with basically the same team and a few FA's. The next core was the 2011 draft class. Theo would have been fine. He just got in his head and probably needed Larry out of the equation.

[mvp 78]

They need to cut Kennedy out of the decision loop. If they replace him with Theo, in that regard, it should help, but we still have too many hands on the handle stirring the pot.

 

I don't think Sam makes any decisions. He's just the mouthpiece for Henry. Henry just isn't around, so he's there to play the telephone game for everyone.

[mvp 78]

Merely by getting Henry to sign the checks and let Breslow do his job, he'll be cooking with lotsa seasoning.

 

None of us know what the budget is or why it is the way it is. Maybe Theo will be able to right that ship.

[moonslav59]

After getting the 2nd WS, I think he started chasing the dragon. That 2007 team was home grown that included a trade for an ace pitcher for a prospect. I don't think he really got out of whack and it's really overstated what happened in 2011. I think some of the players just aged out and there were a few bad drafts 08-10. I think it was all fixable. Just signing Crawford wasn't the end of the world. Even trading for AGon is something that a big club like the Red Sox should be able to do. We saw that they were able to compete for a WS two years later with basically the same team and a few FA's. The next core was the 2011 draft class. Theo would have been fine. He just got in his head and probably needed Larry out of the equation.

 

I think he viewed CC as excessive and going away from "the plan." I'm not sure he pulls off the Dodger dump trade, and who knows where we'd have been without it.

[mvp 78]

I think he viewed CC as excessive and going away from "the plan." I'm not sure he pulls off the Dodger dump trade, and who knows where we'd have been without it.

 

CC was fine. The signing just didn't work out. Excessive was signing Hanley AND Panda because it made no sense.

[moonslav59]

CC was fine. The signing just didn't work out. Excessive was signing Hanley AND Panda because it made no sense.

 

I think it was the CC signing that Theo was talking about, when he said they got away from their own philosophy.

 

I did not like the signing. CC was a glorified platoon bat, as I called him, then.

[notin]

I think it was the CC signing that Theo was talking about, when he said they got away from their own philosophy.

 

I did not like the signing. CC was a glorified platoon bat, as I called him, then.

 

He should have been more glorified with a 2011 MVP award…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Boston fans never even heard the phrase "sustained" contenders in the final decades of last century, since it was a given the Sox already were... probably because the Red Sox continually developed star players, and almost always found a way to keep the best ones.

 

Someone noted recently about a short span in the 1970s when the Red Sox traded away Reggie Smith, Cecil Cooper, Ben Oglivie and Juan Beniquez -- all became either home run champs, RBI champs, .300 hitters, Gold Glovers or All-Stars -- and Boston fans hardly missed any of them, except Cooper, who got serious AL MVP votes for five straight years (while the guy he was swapped for bounced into a million double plays).

 

The lack of regret for losing good players is that the Red Sox always had plenty of worthy replacements -- Brady Anderson was expendable because they had Ellis Burks -- and management was always ready to supplement the roster with any stars that became available from other clubs.

 

The Yankees were also always on the prowl for upgrades; still are, but now they can have more of their picks, with their old archrivals sitting this one out.

[moonslav59]

Boston fans never even heard the phrase "sustained" contenders in the final decades of last century, since it was a given the Sox already were... probably because the Red Sox continually developed star players, and almost always found a way to keep the best ones.

 

There were a few purges in the 70's that left the team far from "sustainable" in the 80's. The 90's had a few rough patches, too.

 

78-84 in '83 (6th place)

86-76 in '84 (4th place)

81-81 in '85 (5th place)

 

After going to the WS in '86, we went 78-84 in '87 (5th place.)

 

In the 90's:

73-89 (7th) in '92

80-82 (5th) '93

54-61 (4th out of 5) '94

 

78-84 in 97 (4th)

 

From '87 to '97, an 11 year stretch, we only won over 55% of our games once (in the shortened '95 season at .557.

 

From '80 to '87, we did it once ('86.)

[mvp 78]

I think it was the CC signing that Theo was talking about, when he said they got away from their own philosophy.

 

I did not like the signing. CC was a glorified platoon bat, as I called him, then.

 

David Ortiz's OPS against RHP was 200 points higher than vs LHP, CC's was only 100. Is he a glorified platoon bat?

[mvp 78]

Carl Crawford DRS per year:

03 10

04 14

05 12

06 5

07 -2

08 11

09 19

10 8

 

"glorified platoon bat"

[mvp 78]

Carl Crawford averaged an 8.8 BsR from 03-10. Only 4 qualified players had higher BsR's than that last season. No qualified batter over the past 8 seasons has averaged better than 6.1 BsR (Trea Turner).

[notin]

Someone noted recently about a short span in the 1970s when the Red Sox traded away Reggie Smith, Cecil Cooper, Ben Oglivie and Juan Beniquez -- all became either home run champs, RBI champs, .300 hitters, Gold Glovers or All-Stars -- and Boston fans hardly missed any of them, except Cooper, who got serious AL MVP votes for five straight years (while the guy he was swapped for bounced into a million double plays).

 

Back then, when there were very few trades for prospects and no one ever used the phrase “small market,” the main reason so few complained is the Sox didn’t get scorched in all those deals. For the players listed, the Sox did receive a future Hall of Fame starting pitcher, a two time All Star starting pitcher, and a struggling All Star 1b who apparently still had some All Star left in him. And in those deals, Bernie Carbo was a bit of a wash, since he came in one and left in another.

 

Granted, dealing 24yo Ben Oglivie for an aging Dick McAuliffe is a deal that looks bad at first glance. And second glance. And third…

[mvp 78]

Back then, when there were very few trades for prospects and no one ever used the phrase “small market,” the main reason so few complained is the Sox didn’t get scorched in all those deals. For the players listed, the Sox did receive a future Hall of Fame starting pitcher, a two time All Star starting pitcher, and a struggling All Star 1b who apparently still had some All Star left in him. And in those deals, Bernie Carbo was a bit of a wash, since he came in one and left in another.

 

Granted, dealing 24yo Ben Oglivie for an aging Dick McAuliffe is a deal that looks bad at first glance. And second glance. And third…

 

Beniquez won one GG and had a 1.1 bWAR 162 game average over his career. I think this is the first offseason I've heard people lament over losing him for Fergie Jenkins.

 

Jenkins in 2 seasons with BOS: 7 bWAR

Beniquez in his entire 17 year career: 9.9 bWAR

[moonslav59]

David Ortiz's OPS against RHP was 200 points higher than vs LHP, CC's was only 100. Is he a glorified platoon bat?

 

Not when the one vs LHPs is above .700.

 

Career: Papi .981/.817

 

Crawford: .798/..682 (To be fair, I think CC's was like .695 when we signed him.)

 

You should have used Yaz: .891/.693, but that was a different era, and the Sox did not have anyone that could give the all around game Yaz gave, to take his place v LHPs.

[mvp 78]

Rice LF

Lynn CF

Evans RF

DH Smith

1B Cooper

1B/DH/LF Yaz

 

I don't see anyway that they still hold onto Ogilvie. It took him a long time to pan out and they had horses coming. You can't really have an OF with Yaz, Rice, Evans, Lynn, Carbo, Smith AND Ogilvie...

Edited February 12, 2024 by mvp 78

[moonslav59]

Carl Crawford DRS per year:

03 10

04 14

05 12

06 5

07 -2

08 11

09 19

10 8

 

"glorified platoon bat"

 

Defensive Runs Saved is related to batting splits?

[mvp 78]

Not when the one vs LHPs is above .700.

 

Career: Papi .981/.817

 

Crawford: .798/..682 (To be fair, I think CC's was like .695 when we signed him.)

 

You should have used Yaz: .891/.693, but that was a different era, and the Sox did not have anyone that could give the all around game Yaz gave, to take his place v LHPs.

 

Papi was a one trick pony. He couldn't field. His only job was to hit. Was he a glorified platoon bat? Against some lefties, he stood no chance.

[mvp 78]

Defensive Runs Saved is related to batting splits?

 

He was a "glorified platoon bat." That's ignoring everything else that was important to his game.

[moonslav59]

Rice LF

Lynn CF

Evans RF

DH Smith

1B Cooper (was traded so that Cooper could play)

1B/DH/LF Yaz

 

I don't see anyway that they still hold onto Ogilvie. It took him a long time to pan out and they had horses coming. You can't really have an OF with Yaz, Rice, Evans, Lynn, Carbo, Smith AND Ogilvie...

 

Smith was a better defender than Rice, so Rice to DH.

 

Cooper was traded because the manager said, "He'll never hit in MLB." or something like that, as I recall.

 

They also traded 1Bman Cecil Cooper for 1Bman George Scott, who did play 1B.

[moonslav59]

He was a "glorified platoon bat." That's ignoring everything else that was important to his game.

 

I did not ignore everything else.

 

You complain my posts are too long, then if I don't go in great detail about every aspect of CC's game, "I'm ignoring it?"

 

I know he was a plus defender, when we got him.

 

I know he was a plus runner, when we got him.

 

We paid him enough to be an all around great player, and he never was vs LHPs. He was "glorified" because of his D and BR'ing.

 

I would not have given him top dollar to be great in 65% of the games, and a poor hitter in 35% of the games. His plus D and BR did make up for some of that poor hitting, but not at that money, IMO.

 

[mvp 78]

Smith was a better defender than Rice, so Rice to DH.

 

Cooper was traded because the manager said, "He'll never hit in MLB." or something like that, as I recall.

 

They also traded 1Bman Cecil Cooper for 1Bman George Scott, who did play 1B.

 

What would BTV have thought about the original George Scott trade?

 

Scott

Lonborg

Billy C

Lahoud

Pavletich

 

for

 

Tommy Harper

Lew Krausee

Marty Pattin

Pat Skrable

 

Why are current GM scared to do TalkSox assed nine player trades like this???