Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I was saying that just the other day to Hanley Ramirez..

 

... or one of Bloom's 75 high school draft picks...

[notin]

... or one of Bloom's 75 high school draft picks...

 

On most high school teams, the shortstop is the only player worth drafting, assuming anyone is at all. If you went back and looked at the high school careers of a huge chunk of (right-handed) Major Leaguers, more of them than you realize played SS in high school. That includes some who played other positions in college.

 

It’s just where the best player most often plays. Unless he throws left-handed…

[mvp 78]

I was saying that just the other day to Hanley Ramirez..

 

Hanley made 72 errors from 06-08 at SS. He had a career -74 DRS, -8 UZR/150. He was NOT a good SS and probably never should have played there to begin with.

[mvp 78]

On most high school teams, the shortstop is the only player worth drafting, assuming anyone is at all. If you went back and looked at the high school careers of a huge chunk of (right-handed) Major Leaguers, more of them than you realize played SS in high school. That includes some who played other positions in college.

 

It’s just where the best player most often plays. Unless he throws left-handed…

 

Haven't had a left handed throwing SS since 1987.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

On most high school teams, the shortstop is the only player worth drafting, assuming anyone is at all. If you went back and looked at the high school careers of a huge chunk of (right-handed) Major Leaguers, more of them than you realize played SS in high school. That includes some who played other positions in college.

 

It’s just where the best player most often plays. Unless he throws left-handed…

 

Agreed. But he only plays short when he's not pitching, and always bats clean-up. He's also the quarterback, point guard and first-line center -- if he plays hockey... and always dates the prom queen (which usually doesn't last, with so many underclasswomen to choose from).

 

But that doesn't mean Bichette at 25 can't thrive at a less-demanding position; he's not Hanley in his 30s clunking around out there waiting to become a fulltime DH.

[dgalehouse]

Bichette is the only one of Toronto's second generation guys who is actually better than his old man.

[notin]

Bichette is the only one of Toronto's second generation guys who is actually better than his old man.

 

Travis Shaw was a better hitter than Jeff. Does that count?

 

Also, a tad unfair given the other two have dads in Cooperstown…

[dgalehouse]

Travis Shaw was a better hitter than Jeff. Does that count?

 

Also, a tad unfair given the other two have dads in Cooperstown…

 

I think if I posted ; Today is Wednesday , you would come back with something like; " Not in Australia " , it's Thursday there. You are the ultimate contrarian.

[notin]

I think if I posted ; Today is Wednesday , you would come back with something like; " Not in Australia " , it's Thursday there. You are the ultimate contrarian.

 

I didn’t disagree, unless you count the obvious Travis Shaw joke. Not like I said Dante - a fairly underrated player - was better than Bo.

 

I just pointed out the disadvantage Cavan and Vlad Jr. are at being sons of Hall of Famers…

[jad]

Haven't had a left handed throwing SS since 1987.

 

Hey! My grandfather was a left-haanded second-baseman in college. ... Of course, that was in the 1897-98 season!

[Old Red]

Yam Man’s agent says 11-14 teams have checked in on the Yam Man. That seems a little high, but who knows.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Final thought on pitcher wins... or is that team wins in relation to specific pitchers: I have to agree with Old Red that the order of rotations do matter, at least from series to series.

 

All wins may count the same in the standings, but there is a reason teams sometimes line up their best pitcher to face another club's ace -- because they feel that gives them their best chance for victory... and if it's head-to-head vs. a division rival, we know that might count even more (at the risk of reopening another old controversy).

 

Plus, if it's a playoff series, we all know every team wants to open with a Game One W... and ideally also have their best available again for a clincher or to stave off elimination later on.

[cp176]

On most high school teams, the shortstop is the only player worth drafting, assuming anyone is at all. If you went back and looked at the high school careers of a huge chunk of (right-handed) Major Leaguers, more of them than you realize played SS in high school. That includes some who played other positions in college.

 

It’s just where the best player most often plays. Unless he throws left-handed…

 

Most of the "shortstops" were at one type likely - pitchers, catchers, infielders and outfielders as well. Many professional teams drool over the opportunity to draft young catchers and bring them along in the way they want them to be brought along. But lest we forget many of those "young catchers" have also been shortstops, pitchers, etc. They are the best players on the team.

[cp176]

Having Bichette at second base would make me forget about an error now and then. To be the best you need to have the best.

[Bellhorn04]

Final thought on pitcher wins... or is that team wins in relation to specific pitchers: I have to agree with Old Red that the order of rotations do matter, at least from series to series.

 

All wins may count the same in the standings, but there is a reason teams sometimes line up their best pitcher to face another club's ace -- because they feel that gives them their best chance for victory... and if it's head-to-head vs. a division rival, we know that might count even more (at the risk of reopening another old controversy).

 

Plus, if it's a playoff series, we all know every team wants to open with a Game One W... and ideally also have their best available again for a clincher or to stave off elimination later on.

 

Yes, in the playoffs order matters a lot.

[notin]

Final thought on pitcher wins... or is that team wins in relation to specific pitchers: I have to agree with Old Red that the order of rotations do matter, at least from series to series.

 

All wins may count the same in the standings, but there is a reason teams sometimes line up their best pitcher to face another club's ace -- because they feel that gives them their best chance for victory... and if it's head-to-head vs. a division rival, we know that might count even more (at the risk of reopening another old controversy).

 

Plus, if it's a playoff series, we all know every team wants to open with a Game One W... and ideally also have their best available again for a clincher or to stave off elimination later on.

 

But this has nothing to do with whether or not you categorize a pitcher as a #1,#2,etc. Not like a team fills its rotation with one pitcher from each ranking. They get the best pitchers they can regardless of the whole #1/#2/ace system and then they pitch from best to worst…

[moonslav59]

Yes, in the playoffs order matters a lot.

 

It does matter more, especially when you can get 3 starts from your game one starter. Otherwise, your top 3 SPers matter way more than you 4/5’s.

[moonslav59]

But this has nothing to do with whether or not you categorize a pitcher as a #1,#2,etc. Not like a team fills its rotation with one pitcher from each ranking. They get the best pitchers they can regardless of the whole #1/#2/ace system and then they pitch from best to worst…

 

Yes, and what matters most during the season is that your SPer is better than your opps more often than not.

 

Of course, other parts of your team matters on winning vs losing but improving your odds with a better rotation seems to be the best area to focus on, and when the team was as bad as we were last year, in this area, we need some highly ranked SPers.

[Bellhorn04]

But this has nothing to do with whether or not you categorize a pitcher as a #1,#2,etc. Not like a team fills its rotation with one pitcher from each ranking. They get the best pitchers they can regardless of the whole #1/#2/ace system and then they pitch from best to worst…

 

But for some reason, a lot of fans like to yak about who's an ace, a TOTR starter, a frontline starter, a #2, a #3 etc. There's no stopping it.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But for some reason, a lot of fans like to yak about who's an ace, a TOTR starter, a frontline starter, a #2, a #3 etc. There's no stopping it.

 

We didn't have an ace, king, queen or jack in the rotation for most of last year. Bloom dealt Cora a couple of 10s (1 yr/$10M), but when they tried to double down, the whole table busted. That made a lot of us yak...

[moonslav59]

But for some reason, a lot of fans like to yak about who's an ace, a TOTR starter, a frontline starter, a #2, a #3 etc. There's no stopping it.

 

I think it’s a way to place pitchers in value tiers, but with so much difference in opinion on what a 1, 2, or 3 means, it does make it near meaningless.

 

To simplify things, it looks like Snell, Monty and Gray are somewhere between the rankings of 5-25 from 2021 to 2023 or2023 by itself. We all have our preferences and stat priorities, but I’d say all 3 are between the 10th and 15th best starters over the past 3 years. Some younger starters with1-2 years in MLB may be better going forward but I don’t think it’s all that far off to say…

 

These 3 pitchers are as good or better than half the MLB teams’ best SPer.

[moonslav59]

We didn't have an ace, king, queen or jack in the rotation for most of last year. Bloom dealt Cora a couple of 10s (1 yr/$10M), but when they tried to double down, the whole table busted. That made a lot of us yak...

 

True.

 

Sale, Paxton, Bello and even Crawford & Pivetta were near Kings for about a half season, but none were even Jacks for most of the season. Crawford probably came closest.

[notin]

But for some reason, a lot of fans like to yak about who's an ace, a TOTR starter, a frontline starter, a #2, a #3 etc. There's no stopping it.

 

It’s kind of silly, especially since the goal is to upgrade the rotation and it’s not like you’re only allowed one of each. The more annoying comments are always “but X is a #4 and we don’t need one of those”. Well, we do if we have three #5’s. If the #4 is an upgrade and the best you can afford, or doesn’t prevent getting better players, why not do it? Because you were held back by some arbitrary ranking systems with absolutely no definition of difference between classes?

[moonslav59]

Just read the Mets only have 28 players on their 40, while ATL and SDP have just 31.

 

Lots of slots to be filled around MLB, right now.

 

I’d like to see us move from quantity of mediocre talent to a more quality based roster of better than mediocre players.

 

Maybe we can find a 2 or 3 for one trade partner, who likes multiple fringe players on our roster.

[notin]

True.

 

Sale, Paxton, Bello and even Crawford & Pivetta were near Kings for about a half season, but none were even Jacks for most of the season. Crawford probably came closest.

 

 

But you think Crawford is a relief pitcher…

[notin]

Just read the Mets only have 28 players on their 40, while ATL and SDP have just 31.

 

Lots of slots to be filled around MLB, right now.

 

I’d like to see us move from quantity of mediocre talent to a more quality based roster of better than mediocre players.

 

Maybe we can find a 2 or 3 for one trade partner, who likes multiple fringe players on our roster.

 

No one likes any fringe player on our roster, let alone multiple of them.

 

Every team has a Zack Weiss and a Joe Jacques already. And they all passed on Mauricio Llovera when the Giants DFAd him. And every GM has turned down the opportunity to trade for Dalbec.

 

Those days are all passed. Release these players. Set them free to pursue contractual deals in Asian leagues! Let Dalbec be the Ham Fighter we all know he can be!

[moonslav59]

It’s kind of silly, especially since the goal is to upgrade the rotation and it’s not like you’re only allowed one of each. The more annoying comments are always “but X is a #4 and we don’t need one of those”. Well, we do if we have three #5’s. If the #4 is an upgrade and the best you can afford, or doesn’t prevent getting better players, why not do it? Because you were held back by some arbitrary ranking systems with absolutely no definition of difference between classes?

 

This makes sense, but trying to slightly improve on your #4 with a better#4 means you are not getting a very good pitcher.

 

Just replacing your 3rd best pitcher knocks your 3 to 4 and your 4 to 5. In theory, adding any pitcher better than your 5th best starter is basically replacing the 5. Id prefer replacing the 5 with a 2 or 3 than a 4, but money and circumstances often keeps that from happening.

 

Also, when you get to 4’s or 5’s, many are stabs in the dark and almost all of them are hard to predict what they will give the team the following year.

 

In recent years, we added Kluber, Paxton, Wacha, Hill, Richards, Perez (twice) and Pivetta. To me, it’s not a successful strategy unless it is coupled with adding a 1 or 2.

[moonslav59]

[/b]1574925]But you think Crawford is a relief pitcher…

 

Yes. He has been much better as a RP than SP. Just because he might have been the closest to being a consistent “jack”as a SP’er does not mean he projects to be better than Bello, Paxton and others, next year.

 

Remember, I’m for adding 3SPers to Bello and Pivetta/Sale, so I think the same way about Houck, Whitlock and Crawford. Adding 3 plus a healthy Sale would even move Pivetta, our most consistent SPer over the last 3 years, to the pen. (Note: Pivetta is the only SPer we’ve had every season of the last 3 (10+ GS.)

[moonslav59]

Yes. He has been much better as a RP than SP. Just because he might have been the closest to being a consistent “jack”as a SP’er does not mean he projects to be better than Bello, Paxton and others, next year.

 

Remember, I’m for adding 3SPers to Bello and Pivetta/Sale, so I think the same way about Houck, Whitlock and Crawford. Adding 3 plus a healthy Sale would even move Pivetta, our most consistent SPer over the last 3 years, to the pen. (Note: Pivetta is the only SPer we’ve had every season of the last 3 (10+ GS.)

 

I meant to say Pivetta not Paxton in my opening sentence.

 

I can’t edit from my phone.

[moonslav59]

No one likes any fringe player on our roster, let alone multiple of them.

 

Every team has a Zack Weiss and a Joe Jacques already. And they all passed on Mauricio Llovera when the Giants DFAd him. And every GM has turned down the opportunity to trade for Dalbec.

 

Those days are all passed. Release these players. Set them free to pursue contractual deals in Asian leagues! Let Dalbec be the Ham Fighter we all know he can be!

 

We have more fringe players than the 4 you listed. We just traded one to SEA, a team not looking for more fringe.

 

I’m thinking more like Murphy/Walter/Mata or Refsnyder, McGuire, Robertson DHam or Kelly.

 

I think some GM might like 2-3 of these players listed, and I’m not suggesting we trade 3 for a solid player: just 2-3 for 1 that is better.