Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[cp176]

The problem is that if you mention trading someone on here, people automatically assume you are DUMPING the player.

 

With the right GM, you could trade any player on your roster and get the right return for the ballclub. Some people just don't trust Bloom to do the job and assume that any trade would mean Sox would lose value and get depantsed.

 

I guess that I would be one of those people who might not trust Bloom to get the job done.

[cp176]

Good, this team isn’t ready to strike for a pitcher. They’re a mediocre team, I think you need to build yourself into a contender with a strong farm and then you make such deals.

 

Trading young controllable guys away now would be blowing the load too soon.

 

It’s a slap in the face to endearing such suck for the past 4 years all in the name of rebuilding from the ground up, only to tear it all down and trade away a bunch of assets when we are almost but not there yet

 

I agree with you about Casas but as for any of our other young guys, how would anyone here really know what we are looking at at the major league level. they are not getting the opportunity to play. You have to have something to give to get anything in return. I would keep Casas but outside of Duran, who has played enough on a regular basis to convince any gm that they would be worth trading for. We appear to have a bunch of talented minor leaguers. Is it possible that maybe they aren't talented enough?

[Hugh2]

I agree with you about Casas but as for any of our other young guys, how would anyone here really know what we are looking at at the major league level. they are not getting the opportunity to play. You have to have something to give to get anything in return. I would keep Casas but outside of Duran, who has played enough on a regular basis to convince any gm that they would be worth trading for. We appear to have a bunch of talented minor leaguers. Is it possible that maybe they aren't talented enough?

 

I’m not against trading prospects at all, I’m just merely stating my love for Casas. He’s becoming my new MLB binky. I just don’t want to see him traded, ever.

 

Things can change.

[mvp 78]

I guess that I would be one of those people who might not trust Bloom to get the job done.

 

Aside from the Renfroe trade, he’s been ok at trades. He just needs to be more aggressive.

[notin]

Aside from the Renfroe trade, he’s been ok at trades. He just needs to be more aggressive.

 

Especially in late July/August…

[mvp 78]

Especially in late July/August…

 

He’s not very aggressive in the offseason either.

[Randy Red Sox]

I agree with you about Casas but as for any of our other young guys, how would anyone here really know what we are looking at at the major league level. they are not getting the opportunity to play. You have to have something to give to get anything in return. I would keep Casas but outside of Duran, who has played enough on a regular basis to convince any gm that they would be worth trading for. We appear to have a bunch of talented minor leaguers. Is it possible that maybe they aren't talented enough?

 

i think I have been saying that all along

[Randy Red Sox]

He looks to be an absolute beast at the plate. It's hard to project what his offensive ceiling can or will be.

 

Years ago, we might be able to trade Bleis, Yorke and a couple mid ranked guys for an ace, but now, teams want ML ready guys.

 

To get a true ace, we'd likely have to deal 2 from: Mayer, Bleis, Anthony or Teel, if you want to keep Casas. Plus, we might need to add Rafaela or Abreu plus Perales or Wikelman.

 

I'm not saying we need to or should pull the trigger, but we'll have to give to get.

 

 

Or simply not allow ourselves to be outbid on Yamamoto.

[notin]

He’s not very aggressive in the offseason either.

 

But he makes actual moves then.

 

I think inactivity is definitely his biggest issue. I don’t mind giving a shot to someone like Joe Jacques or Kyle Ort. But at some point, pull the plug…

[notin]

Or simply not allow ourselves to be outbid on Yamamoto.

 

They’re not getting Yamamoto. I think Shota Imanaga is far more likely…

[moonslav59]

this is obvious to most anybody. however, i suspect Bloom will sign 2-3 broken down pitchers that nobody else wanted, a left-hand hitting OF and a DH.

 

I hope you are wrong, but that does seem to be the trend.

 

I will say that JH's "trend" has been to stagger his big spending, usually at points where the team looks like they have a foundation set up for a window to open. Yes, 4 years is a long "stagger," but there have been recent signs of increased spending (Story, Yoshida and Devers.)

 

We all seem to disagree on whether we have reached that point, yet, or not, but I do think JH will spend big, very soon.

 

I'm not going to predict 2024. I do hope so. I do think we have a good enough foundation to be 3-4 key pieces away from being faves to make the playoffs in March, 2024.

 

I fully understand the position that we are farther away than that. So many other teams look stacked with fine, young talent.

[moonslav59]

I guess that I would be one of those people who might not trust Bloom to get the job done.

 

It could be a similar situation as with Ben, where the philosophy is about to change drastically, and a different kind of GM might be better suited for that new direction.

 

Just as DD might not have been the right GM to sit through a 4-5 year rebuild, Bloom might not be the guy we trust to be the big-spending, not-afraid-to-trade-top-prospects kind of GM.

 

I'm just not sure upper management is[ onboard with repeating an all-out go for it now plan. I think they are seeking balance, and maybe they see Bloom as the guy for that. I, for one, am not convinced Bloom is dead set against trading top prospects. I just think the team philosophy was to wait until a winning window seemed closer than it was in 2020.

 

We'll see.

 

[moonslav59]

Or simply not allow ourselves to be outbid on Yamamoto.

 

I'm not convinced he's our guy, but this winter, we need to outbid everyone for "the guy" we want.

 

I'll go a step further: we then need to identify 2-3 other SP'er we feel are durable and dependable and outbid everyone for one of those, too.

 

If we don't want to try and break our cirse on big FA signings, then we have to try our luck on one, and make a big trade for another.

 

IMO, nothing short of adding two very good pitchers will get my stamp of approval. Skimping on a big RH'd bat and or a lefty RP'er can be stomached, if we get 2 solid SP'er. (I don't think we need to skimp, but I'm just emphasizing my priorities.)

 

I'm no expert on who is the best, and since the Sox have not gone for the best, I'm not so sure we can judge Bloom as incapable of choosing the right one based on $10M/1 signings like Kluber and Richards. Bloom did try to lock up Nate and the Eflin attempt was also a sign he knows good pitching as much as anyone else. He just has not decided to or wasn't allowed to spend on the very best... YET!

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

I'm no expert on who is the best, and since the Sox have not gone for the best, I'm not so sure we can judge Bloom as incapable of choosing the right one based on $10M/1 signings like Kluber and Richards. Bloom did try to lock up Nate and the Eflin attempt was also a sign he knows good pitching as much as anyone else. He just has not decided to or wasn't allowed to spend on the very best... YET!

 

 

Or maybe he just blows at building pitching staffs -- come on, this has to be possibility, since it's only true for all four years he's been here.

2020-2023: American League

 

MOST HITS ALLOWED: 1. BOS 4,668

MOST RUNS ALLOWED: 1. KC 2,628 2. BOS 2,571

WORST WHIP: 1. KC 1.418 2. BOS 1.391

HIGHEST ERA: 1. KC 4.78, 2, BAL 4.62, 3. BOS 4.59

 

... and my favorite...

MOST BATTERS HIT BY PITCHES: 1. BOS 256

Edited September 9, 2023 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75

[moonslav59]

Or maybe he just blows at building pitching staffs -- come on, this has to be possibility, since it's only true for all four years he's been here.

2020-2023: American League

 

MOST HITS ALLOWED: 1. BOS 4,668

MOST RUNS ALLOWED: 1. KC 2,628 2. BOS 2,571

WORST WHIP: 1. KC 1.418 2. BOS 1.391

HIGHEST ERA: 1. KC 4.78, 2, BAL 4.62, 3. BOS 4.59

 

... and my favorite...

MOST BATTERS HIT BY PITCHES: 1. BOS 256

 

Yes, he has sucked, for the most part, at building up the rotation, but he has never spent large and long on one.

 

You get what you pay for, and spending $10M/1 will always be a crapshoot.

 

To me, there are two aspects that make me hold off a total Bloom bashing on the rotation.

 

1. If the team plan was to wait until we had a foundation to spend big on pitching, and it was not "Bloom's call," then I think we should see what happens, this winter. If it was all his doing, I'm with you, although I do see some logic in waiting to add the SP'ers last.

 

2. When you choose to spend about $10M on SP'ers, your expectations should not be great.

$6M/1 Perez

$5M/1 Perez

$10M/1 Richards

$7M/1 Wacha

$5M/1 Hill

$10M/1 Kluber

He should have done better, even with that meager spending, I agree, but doing much better would have been a fluke.

 

No doubt, our numbers suck. The ones you chose highlight just how bad we have been. I don't think the D did the staff any favors, but we'd still be bad even with a plus D.

 

Some other numbers:

100 ERA- (10th in AL)

14.6% K%-BB% (8th in AL)

 

Throw out 2020, and...

 

2021-2023 ERA-

101 (8th in AL)

 

4.04 SIERA (8th)

 

100 xFIP- (7th)

 

Still bad, but much better than 2020-2023.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, he has sucked, for the most part, at building up the rotation, but he has never spent large and long on one.

 

You get what you pay for, and spending $10M/1 will always be a crapshoot.

 

Is that an excuse?

 

If he had money to spend on Story and Yoshida, he had money to spend on a starter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, he has sucked, for the most part, at building up the rotation, but he has never spent large and long on one.

 

You get what you pay for, and spending $10M/1 will always be a crapshoot.

 

To me, there are two aspects that make me hold off a total Bloom bashing on the rotation.

 

1. If the team plan was to wait until we had a foundation to spend big on pitching, and it was not "Bloom's call," then I think we should see what happens, this winter. If it was all his doing, I'm with you, although I do see some logic in waiting to add the SP'ers last.

 

2. When you choose to spend about $10M on SP'ers, your expectations should not be great.

$6M/1 Perez

$5M/1 Perez

$10M/1 Richards

$7M/1 Wacha

$5M/1 Hill

$10M/1 Kluber

He should have done better, even with that meager spending, I agree, but doing much better would have been a fluke.

 

No doubt, our numbers suck. The ones you chose highlight just how bad we have been. I don't think the D did the staff any favors, but we'd still be bad even with a plus D.

 

Some other numbers:

100 ERA- (10th in AL)

14.6% K%-BB% (8th in AL)

 

Throw out 2020, and...

 

2021-2023 ERA-

101 (8th in AL)

 

4.04 SIERA (8th)

 

100 xFIP- (7th)

 

Still bad, but much better than 2020-2023.

 

 

The stats I posted were for entire pitching staffs, starters and relievers. We can make up all the excuses we want -- arms under contract from previous GMs, bad bullpen one year, bad rotation another, bad luck, bad viruses affecting the entire world -- whatever.

 

The bottom line is that Red Sox pitchers under Chaim Bloom have allowed the most hits and hit the most batters in the American League over the past four years.

 

Based on those two categories, the pitching staffs Bloom has assembled and chose to parade out to the mound for his entire tenure are the worst in the league.

[moonslav59]

Is that an excuse?

 

If he had money to spend on Story and Yoshida, he had money to spend on a starter.

 

Call it whatever you want.

 

None of us know what the plan has been or will be.

 

If the organization decided to build up the foundation before spending money or prospects on pitching, then I guess it is an excuse, and maybe even a valid one for Bloom but maybe not those who made that choice.

 

If the choice was all or mostly on Bloom, then he deserves the blame, of if it ends up working, the credit.

 

IMO, we were not an ace away from top contention, on paper, in any year under Bloom, so looking at the best way to plan for 4 years or more is a context that can be debated from all sides.

 

Look, I'm always for adding to the top of the rotation. It would have been more fun watching the Sox over the last 4 years had we had decent rotations (and pens in 2020-2022.) I'm just not sold on the idea that the correct order for a 4-5 year plan is to start with pitching. By the time we reach the "window" the pitching would be in decline.

 

Not allowing for a complete teardown and rebuild only complicates the rebuild, too.

 

It's not a simple situation to judge, IMO.

 

I fully understand why and how others can and do judge harshly.

 

[moonslav59]

The stats I posted were for entire pitching staffs, starters and relievers. We can make up all the excuses we want -- arms under contract from previous GMs, bad bullpen one year, bad rotation another, bad luck, bad viruses affecting the entire world -- whatever.

 

The bottom line is that Red Sox pitchers under Chaim Bloom have allowed the most hits and hit the most batters in the American League over the past four years.

 

Based on those two categories, the pitching staffs Bloom has assembled and chose to parade out to the mound for his entire tenure are the worst in the league.

 

I'm not arguing our pitching sucked.

 

It has improved, especially the pen, but it has sucked.

 

Rebuilding teams often have sucky pitching. It's not an excuse: it's a description of facts.

[Hugh2]

Yama just threw his 2nd career no hitter the other night.

 

Dear god please have the Sox sign this guy

[Duran Is The Man]

Or maybe he just blows at building pitching staffs -- come on, this has to be possibility, since it's only true for all four years he's been here.

2020-2023: American League

 

MOST HITS ALLOWED: 1. BOS 4,668

MOST RUNS ALLOWED: 1. KC 2,628 2. BOS 2,571

WORST WHIP: 1. KC 1.418 2. BOS 1.391

HIGHEST ERA: 1. KC 4.78, 2, BAL 4.62, 3. BOS 4.59

 

... and my favorite...

MOST BATTERS HIT BY PITCHES: 1. BOS 256

 

throw in the s***** defensive numbers every year and it's no wonder they're so awful.

[Larry Cook]

What offensive players/prospects would Miami take for one of their starters?? Ps: can’t be any of our untouchables.

I am hopeful that by next September winkleman is in our rotation!!!!!

[moonslav59]

What offensive players/prospects would Miami take for one of their starters?? Ps: can’t be any of our untouchables.

I am hopeful that by next September winkleman is in our rotation!!!!!

 

Too bad, we still didn't have Brasier and Littell. We could have gotten an ace for Dalbec and those two!

 

LOL

[Duran Is The Man]

Too bad, we still didn't have Brasier and Littell. We could have gotten an ace for Dalbec and those two!

 

LOL

 

well....i got crucified for suggesting that we trade Mayer. i'll say it again, i'd trade him in a second for proven #1 SP. and, after all, isn't the plan to draft dozens of shortstops and then trade them for proven SP?? ya' know, since we don't want to draft/ develop pitchers because they're such an unknown.

[Larry Cook]

well....i got crucified for suggesting that we trade Mayer. i'll say it again, i'd trade him in a second for proven #1 SP. and, after all, isn't the plan to draft dozens of shortstops and then trade them for proven SP?? ya' know, since we don't want to draft/ develop pitchers because they're such an unknown.

 

I got Mayer, Anthony, teel and winkleman on my untouchable list

[moonslav59]

well....i got crucified for suggesting that we trade Mayer. i'll say it again, i'd trade him in a second for proven #1 SP. and, after all, isn't the plan to draft dozens of shortstops and then trade them for proven SP?? ya' know, since we don't want to draft/ develop pitchers because they're such an unknown.

 

I've suggested trading Mayer or Casas and was met with the same outrage.

 

You gotta give to get.

 

We gave up Armas & Pavano for Pedro, HRam and Anibal Sanchez for Beckett (and salary dump Mike Lowell) and Moncada/Kopech for Sale. Nobody complains about those deals.

 

I fully respect the value of our prospects. I'm not "giving up on them" or "dumping them" to suggest we might get equal or greater value for them in an area of greater need, but at some point, I'm pretty sure we'll have to make that tough choice.

 

We've built the farm up pretty nicely. I think we can afford to deal a top prospect and still have a solid farm.

 

Keep it balanced.

[moonslav59]

I got Mayer, Anthony, teel and winkleman on my untouchable list

 

We won't get a top pitcher for even the best 4 remaining prospects: Bleis, Rafaela, Yorke and Perales. Adding Zanetello likely still won't get one.

 

I'm not saying we have to make a deal, but if you want to get a very good younger pitchers with 2+ years of team control, it's gotta be Casas or one of those top 3- as starting point (plus maybe Wikelman.)

[moonslav59]

I'd much rather see us keep all our best prospects and younger players and just sign 2 of the best 2 four SP'ers out there or 3 of the top seven to eight on the market. Add someone like Duvall and a decent LH'd RP'er and call it a day.

 

No more quantity over quality.

 

Spend it all on 3-4 players, and deal with depth issues (where the farm can't help) that arise through in season trades.

 

Ideally, 2 from Yamamoto, Gray, Snell and Nola

 

or

 

1 from those 4 plus 2 from Montgomery, Kershaw, ERod and maybe Giolito/Stroman/Lugo/Wacha

Edited September 10, 2023 by moonslav59

[Randy Red Sox]

well....i got crucified for suggesting that we trade Mayer. i'll say it again, i'd trade him in a second for proven #1 SP. and, after all, isn't the plan to draft dozens of shortstops and then trade them for proven SP?? ya' know, since we don't want to draft/ develop pitchers because they're such an unknown.

 

tell me who is trading a #1 SP for an unproven albeit very promising prospects??

[Randy Red Sox]

I'd much rather see us keep all our best prospects and younger players and just sign 2 of the best 2 four SP'ers out there or 3 of the top seven to eight on the market. Add someone like Duvall and a decent LH'd RP'er and call it a day.

 

No more quantity over quality.

 

Spend it all on 3-4 players, and deal with depth issues (where the farm can't help) that arise through in season trades.

 

Ideally, 2 from Yamamoto, Gray, Snell and Nola

 

or

 

1 from those 4 plus 2 from Montgomery, Kershaw, ERod and maybe Giolito/Stroman/Lugo/Wacha

 

Yamamoto is a must sign IMO. then and only then we sign Snell [1} or Nola {2}. I like Gray but he is getting up there in age. I f we dont get Yamamoto then I dont sign any of those other 4 because on their own they won't make enough of a difference. Out of your 2nd group of ideas I stay FAR FAR away from Strohman and i doubt Kershaw signs anywhere but LA. No way E-Rod comes back to Boston and I don't see any of the others worth the cost it would take to sign any of them.