4/24 vs Orioles: Sale vs Kremer

[Nick]

This was on Sale. Couldn't protect 4-0 lead.

 

I've had enough of our veteran pitchers.

 

Rather lose with our young guys.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Kike was not and still is not my fav Sox

 

You mean the guy who had to get a promise from the GM to improve the team before he would sign for 10 mil.

[Maxbialystock]

Good at bat by Duran--good grab and good win for the Orioles.

 

A few more shots at the home plate umpire by the radio guys. Apparently, Cora was thrown out at the end of the game, as was his batting coach earlier. The announcers say the ump screwed the Sox. Perhaps.

 

But to me the culprits were Sale and his boss, manager Alex Cora. To me Alex Cora gave this game away by leaving Sale in the game when he clearly did not have his good stuff or--just as likely in my opinion--he was telegraphing his pitches.

 

Together Sale and Cora blew a 4-0 lead.

[d-money]

Well that f***ing sucked . Get em tomorrow.

[LOLE]

Casas folded under pressure but still Sale was the clear villain. Cora certainty should have had pitchers warming up at the end of the 4th but let a worthless Sale give up another run in the 5th. Very confusing red sox outing after a fantastic 4 run start.

[Maxbialystock]

This was on Sale. Couldn't protect 4-0 lead.

 

I've had enough of our veteran pitchers.

 

Rather lose with our young guys.

 

Sale and Cora, who left him in for 5 innings.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The SOX have now played in 9 one run games, so far.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Well that f***ing sucked . Get em tomorrow.

 

Kluber's due for a decent start, or not.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Sale definitely lost that one . Then the hitters disappeared. It may just be a .500 team teasing us nightly

 

No, no, a thousand times no. Be very good or be very bad, but please don't be a .500 team. But, again, based on current starting pitching, very bad is most likely.

[Maxbialystock]

Kluber's due for a decent start, or not.

 

Not.

 

The irony is that, now with a day off today for the good relievers plus another real day off due Thursday, Sale can use his bullpen tomorrow. But Kluber is fully capable of giving up a lot of runs in the 1st or 2d inning.

 

Today was the game to pull the starter--when the Sox still had the lead. Instead, Sale was allowed to stay in and give up 5 runs. This was his first start in his entire career he didn't get a single K. Instead, lots of good contact by the Orioles. And a manager who was determined not to use his bullpen early. Or, once the Sox fell behind in the 5th, 5-4, even a good bullpen arm. Nevertheless, Brasier and the other guy, a lefty just brought up, pitched 3 scoreless innings.

[Tedballgame]

The SOX have now played in 9 one run games, so far.

 

With Kluber going tomorrow, they are going to need 9 runs to be in a 1 run game.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

With Kluber going tomorrow, they are going to need 9 runs to be in a 1 run game.

 

O's batters are already chumping at the bit.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

With Kluber going tomorrow, they are going to need 9 runs to be in a 1 run game.

 

 

So the SOX either win 9-8 or lose 10-9? I'm hoping for the former, but the latter wouldn't surprise me or anyone else on this thread.

[Oscars]

With the useless (so far) Kluber starting tomorrow, Cora should have managed to win this very winnable game. Edited April 25, 2023 by Oscars

[Maxbialystock]

Attendance 11,811. Orioles fans not yet sold on this year’s team.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It’s “let ‘em pitch” or DFA…

 

So they do have options...

[jad]

No, no, a thousand times no. Be very good or be very bad, but please don't be a .500 team. But, again, based on current starting pitching, very bad is most likely.

 

Nope. Win games. That's what you get paid to do as athletes. I'd much rather follow a .500 team that is trying to get to .501 than a .300 team bent on losing.

[moonslav59]

Attendance 11,811. Orioles fans not yet sold on this year’s team.

 

They couldn't even sell out WS games back in the 70's.

[mvp 78]

Attendance 11,811. Orioles fans not yet sold on this year’s team.

 

That's what years of an apathetic ownership will do. There was excitement around the team last year, then they traded away Mancini and their best bullpen piece rather than even pretending to go for a WC birth. Embarrassing. The owner spent the whole offseason looking like an entitled idiot (even more than Henry did) in front of the fanbase too.

[moonslav59]

That's what years of an apathetic ownership will do. There was excitement around the team last year, then they traded away Mancini and their best bullpen piece rather than even pretending to go for a WC birth. Embarrassing. The owner spent the whole offseason looking like an entitled idiot (even more than Henry did) in front of the fanbase too.

 

The worst part about what they did, last summer, was not even replacing what they lost, this winter.

 

They have a solid base of young players who would greatly benefit from some solid veteran additions filling the gaps, but nope: total ownership apathy.

[Maxbialystock]

This was on Sale. Couldn't protect 4-0 lead.

 

I've had enough of our veteran pitchers.

 

Rather lose with our young guys.

 

Yes and no.

 

Yesterday is on both Sale and Cora because it took both of them to lose that 4-0 lead. According to the radio announcers, Cora was determined not to rely heavily on his bullpen, which is why Sale went 5 innings, just long enough to give up 5 runs. I emphatically disagree with Cora.

 

As for Sale, the announcers also said repeatedly that this was Sale's first start in his entire career when he started and didn't get a single K. My claim is that Sale was tipping his pitches because his stuff wasn't that bad. His command wasn't great either, but also wasn't that bad. I can't name the inning or the hitter, but one of the Orioles golfed a very low pitch for a hard hit single (or double). The announcers also said that before this game the Orioles were in a slump.

 

Sale has had one excellent start--his previous game against the Twins, 6 IP, 1 ER, 11 K--and one OK start--vs the Tigers, 5 IP, 3 ER, 7 K, 3 BB. And 3 bad starts. His ERA is now an abysmal 8.22.

 

However, we know his fastball is passable at 95/96 mph and that his slider and changeup can be effective. He also has a sinker this year which sometimes work.

 

We also know he hasn't started steadily since 2019, four years ago. So I'm not ready to give up on him, especially given that excellent game vs. the Twins just one week ago.

 

I don't feel the same about Kluber, who goes tonight.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes and no.

 

Yesterday is on both Sale and Cora because it took both of them to lose that 4-0 lead. According to the radio announcers, Cora was determined not to rely heavily on his bullpen, which is why Sale went 5 innings, just long enough to give up 5 runs. I emphatically disagree with Cora.

 

Why? We're playing like 20 days in a row and Cora is trying to keep guys like Winckowski from having their arms fall off...

 

Seems like sensible managing to me. It's not Cora's fault our rotation stinks.

[Maxbialystock]

Why? We're playing like 20 days in a row and Cora is trying to keep guys like Winckowski from having their arms fall off...

 

Seems like sensible managing to me. It's not Cora's fault our rotation stinks.

 

It's 19 straight games, but your point is still made.

 

Who said Winckowski? He's not the only guy in the bullpen. My point remains: why leave Sale in when he clearly does not have it? I think he was tipping his pitches--and probably am wrong--but the fact is that Cora and his pitching coach must have known he had problems because of the complete absence of K's.

 

If the Orioles had jumped out to a lead, however small, I would have been fine with leaving Sale in. But the Sox were up 4-0, and Sale went 5 freaking innings to insure the Orioles would get that 5-4 lead.

 

So, while I definitely like Cora this season and do see your point, I would have preferred to see the bullpen before the 6th inning.

[moonslav59]

We should be able to pitch Wink and Crawford 2-3 innings every 3-4 days. Guys like Schreiber and Bleier can go more than 1 from time to time.

 

We have an 8 man pen, which was not something many teams had before the roster expansion to 26. Our starters, as badly as they have done, are 3rd in IP.

 

We should be able to yank a couple starters earlier than we want.

[Maxbialystock]

We should be able to pitch Wink and Crawford 2-3 innings every 3-4 days. Guys like Schreiber and Bleier can go more than 1 from time to time.

 

We have an 8 man pen, which was not something many teams had before the roster expansion to 26. Our starters, as badly as they have done, are 3rd in IP.

 

We should be able to yank a couple starters earlier than we want.

 

This reads suspiciously like support for not leaving Sale in for 5 innings last night. To remind: I do like Cora's managing this year. Just not so much last night.

 

 

Also, someone needs to fall on that grenade and start the game thread for tonight when Kluber starts against Bradish.

[moonslav59]

This reads suspiciously like support for not leaving Sale in for 5 innings last night. To remind: I do like Cora's managing this year. Just not so much last night.

 

Also, someone needs to fall on that grenade and start the game thread for tonight when Kluber starts against Bradish.

 

I'm usually not one to bash a manager over one specific move, since I don't have access to all the info he has/had. I'm just talking in generalities.

 

I think we have left some SP'ers in a few too many batters, after they seem to have clearly "lost it." I get the fact that there are plenty of anecdotal instances where a pitcher regained his composure and went on to eat some innings and help keep us in game, where he struggled early, but this team can score a lot of runs, and has shown it can comeback and win games 10-9. I'm thinking we should have yanked a starter a little earlier a couple or maybe three or four times, this year, and it's not just hindsight thinking, on my part. I felt it at the time, too. (I'm not pretending to know more than Cora. I still think he is a fine manager.)

 

Game 1: understandable. Kluber looked okay until the 4th: BB, HR, lineout, liner 2B, liner 1B, BB and then yanked. (Kelly let two of Kluber's 5 runs score.)

 

Game 4: I have issues. Crawford was in trouble every inning, but it took 2 HRs in the 4th to yank him- even then, he waited for him to get 2 more outs. (4IP 8 hits & 2 BB and 7 runs)

 

Game 11: No issues, despite Whitlock going 5 IP with 8 hits & 0BB (5 ERs). He did not look all that badly until 2 outs in the 5th with those back-to-back solo blasts.

 

Game 12: Questionable. After Sale let up 3 in the first, he sort of looked okay. A couple line drive hits in the 4th and a bunt single might have been enough to yank him before Franco's deep 2B, but I can live with that choice.

 

Game 13: hard to have issues, when many felt they yanked Kluber, too early, and Bleier allowed a mess of IR's to score.

 

Game 15: is an example of not yanking a guy too early. Pivetta let up 4 in the first, but then settled down, nicely, until the 4th, where Cora did yank him after 3 straight hits. (Ort let one of Pivetta's 6 runs score.)

 

Game 17: Close call. Bello did not last long, but it was clear he did not have it from the second batter on. 2.2 IP 8 hits, 1 BB, 5 ERs

 

Game 19: Another Kluber stinker. (5 IP, 6hits, 2 BBs and 7 ERs) He did not allow any ERs in his last 2 IP, so it's hard to say he should have been yanked early, but 7 ERs in 3 IP?

 

Game 24: I'd have yanked sale, earlier. (5 IP, 9 hits, 1 BB 5 Ers and NO K's) There could have been more runs, but a timely DP helped.

 

I like Cora. I'm not really complaining, but I'd have done a couple things differently. Maybe we would have done worse had we followed my suggestions.

 

[Maxbialystock]

I'm usually not one to bash a manager over one specific move, since I don't have access to all the info he has/had. I'm just talking in generalities.

 

I think we have left some SP'ers in a few too many batters, after they seem to have clearly "lost it." I get the fact that there are plenty of anecdotal instances where a pitcher regained his composure and went on to eat some innings and help keep us in game, where he struggled early, but this team can score a lot of runs, and has shown it can comeback and win games 10-9. I'm thinking we should have yanked a starter a little earlier a couple or maybe three or four times, this year, and it's not just hindsight thinking, on my part. I felt it at the time, too. (I'm not pretending to know more than Cora. I still think he is a fine manager.)

 

Game 1: understandable. Kluber looked okay until the 4th: BB, HR, lineout, liner 2B, liner 1B, BB and then yanked. (Kelly let two of Kluber's 5 runs score.)

 

Game 4: I have issues. Crawford was in trouble every inning, but it took 2 HRs in the 4th to yank him- even then, he waited for him to get 2 more outs. (4IP 8 hits & 2 BB and 7 runs)

 

Game 11: No issues, despite Whitlock going 5 IP with 8 hits & 0BB (5 ERs). He did not look all that badly until 2 outs in the 5th with those back-to-back solo blasts.

 

Game 12: Questionable. After Sale let up 3 in the first, he sort of looked okay. A couple line drive hits in the 4th and a bunt single might have been enough to yank him before Franco's deep 2B, but I can live with that choice.

 

Game 13: hard to have issues, when many felt they yanked Kluber, too early, and Bleier allowed a mess of IR's to score.

 

Game 15: is an example of not yanking a guy too early. Pivetta let up 4 in the first, but then settled down, nicely, until the 4th, where Cora did yank him after 3 straight hits. (Ort let one of Pivetta's 6 runs score.)

 

Game 17: Close call. Bello did not last long, but it was clear he did not have it from the second batter on. 2.2 IP 8 hits, 1 BB, 5 ERs

 

Game 19: Another Kluber stinker. (5 IP, 6hits, 2 BBs and 7 ERs) He did not allow any ERs in his last 2 IP, so it's hard to say he should have been yanked early, but 7 ERs in 3 IP?

 

Game 24: I'd have yanked sale, earlier. (5 IP, 9 hits, 1 BB 5 Ers and NO K's) There could have been more runs, but a timely DP helped.

 

I like Cora. I'm not really complaining, but I'd have done a couple things differently. Maybe we would have done worse had we followed my suggestions.

 

 

We agree--we both like Cora but know he isn't always right--but you are ten times more thorough.

[moonslav59]

We agree--we both like Cora but know he isn't always right--but you are ten times more thorough.

 

He could have been right, but gotten bad results.

 

I coulda been wrong and maybe got lucky.

 

There is very little I disagree with Cora on, and what little there is is mostly theoretical and not specific instances of disagreement.

[a700hitter]

Sale doesn't have the good command so far tonight. But he's got 9 outs vs 1 run. And no K's.

 

Could be Wong is the right catcher for Sale.

 

Astros up 3-2 in the 3d.

It is very concerning that Sale got no K’s through 5 innings.