Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[Old Red]

As far as I can see all the criticism about the Bogaerts situation revolves around the lack of a serious extension offer before he reached free agency.

 

The reported ludicrous offer of one more year and $30 million they made in the pre-season appears to be 100% fact. It's been repeated everywhere and never refuted.

That’s been my beef all along was the ridiculous non offer last offseason, and not that the Red Sox got nowhere near the SD offer. Like you said that offer has never been refuted, but still some on here still don’t believe it, and said the comments should stop about it.

[moonslav59]

This is my point exactly, there's so much we DON'T know.

 

To be fair, filling in the holes with those unknowns is the difference between the Sox screwing this thing up and REALLY SCREWING this thing up.

 

Only if you think Bogey was worth what he would have accepted as his lowest offer at any given point in time, right?

 

Now, in hindsight, if you believe a player's value is set by whatever the dumbest GM is willing to pay, you might think, "We could have had him for $200M/8 18 months ago, and he's worth $280M, now, so we F'd up. I don't see it that way. What if he is not worth $200M/8 or even $170M/7 or 8? Maybe he does worse than Story over the next 5-8 years. Then, who screwed up anything?

 

To me, the ral issue here is what the Sox valued Bogey at vs what each of us think he is worth or what he was worth 6, 12, and 24 months ago. the rest is all static in my ears.

[moonslav59]

That’s been my beef all along was the ridiculous non offer last offseason, and not that the Red Sox got nowhere near the SD offer. Like you said that offer has never been refuted, but still some on here still don’t believe it, and said the comments should stop about it.

 

Who said stop talking about it?

[Old Red]

Who said stop talking about it?

 

Go back on the post, and you will find the lowball offer comments should stop. I know you would be quick to find it if it was me.

[mvp 78]

That’s been my beef all along was the ridiculous non offer last offseason, and not that the Red Sox got nowhere near the SD offer. Like you said that offer has never been refuted, but still some on here still don’t believe it, and said the comments should stop about it.

 

The second they started playing games in April, it was the beginning of the end for Bogey here. Too bad it ended with wimper.

[Old Red]

The second they started playing games in April, it was the beginning of the end for Bogey here. Too bad it ended with wimper.

 

Agree 100%, and Bogey knew it.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Old Red

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

For those convinced the Bogey bull was as much Boras' fault as Bloom's as the media's... just remember, no posters were actually crying about it -- though most of us are disgusted -- by the entire process, and not by the total he's getting from San Diego that Boston never offered. And that includes just about anyone vocal in Red Sox Nation (sure, talk show callers complain about everything, but do you think anyone is quietly happy X will no longer be here?).

 

If there is one person who seemed on the verge of tears, it was Xander, if you watched his reaction in an interview after the initial one-year offer. That was the sound and look of resignation, so Boras must have even connived his own client.

 

In the end, the front office got what they wanted: Story at exactly half the cost of Bogaerts.

[moonslav59]

Go back on the post, and you will find the lowball offer comments should stop. I know you would be quick to find it if it was me.

 

Umm, you said it- you provide the proof. That's how it works.

 

Maybe someone said they were tired of hearing about it, but I don't recall it. I'm not sure why it matters, anyway.

[moonslav59]

For those convinced the Bogey bull was as much Boras' fault as Bloom's as the media's... just remember, no posters were actually crying about it -- though most of us are disgusted -- by the entire process, and not by the total he's getting from San Diego that Boston never offered. And that includes just about anyone vocal in Red Sox Nation (sure, talk show callers complain about everything, but do you think anyone is quietly happy X will no longer be here?).

 

If there is one person who seemed on the verge of tears, it was Xander, if you watched his reaction in an interview after the initial one-year offer. That was the sound and look of resignation, so Boras must have even connived his own client.

 

In the end, the front office got what they wanted: Story at exactly half the cost of Bogaerts.

 

Yup, and when they signed Story, even when the "market" at that time was lower, they knew Bogey would never accept slightly more than Story's deal. I'm not even sure they'd have paid him $150M/6 the day after signing Story.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yup, and when they signed Story, even when the "market" at that time was lower, they knew Bogey would never accept slightly more than Story's deal. I'm not even sure they'd have paid him $150M/6 the day after signing Story.

 

We all did the math at the time: 6 for $140M for Story's $23.3 AAV, 4 for $90M for Bogey's $22.5 AAV.

 

Maybe fans weren't insulted, but I know a few who were indignant that the Red Sox valued some outsider more than their hometown hero who helped win two World Series for Boston since he was 20 year old.

[dgalehouse]

We all did the math at the time: 6 for $140M for Story's $23.3 AAV, 4 for $90M for Bogey's $22.5 AAV.

 

Maybe fans weren't insulted, but I know a few who were indignant that the Red Sox valued some outsider more than their hometown hero who helped win two World Series for Boston since he was 20 year old.

 

A lot of fans were unhappy , if not insulted, by that. You can imagine how Xander felt. Definitely a major blunder by management.

[moonslav59]

We all did the math at the time: 6 for $140M for Story's $23.3 AAV, 4 for $90M for Bogey's $22.5 AAV.

 

Maybe fans weren't insulted, but I know a few who were indignant that the Red Sox valued some outsider more than their hometown hero who helped win two World Series for Boston since he was 20 year old.

 

That offer was also not their final one, like it was for Story.

 

I totally understand the frustration and anger. I think Bogey is worth more than Story, too, especially with Story's injury, that I did not know was career lasting, when we signed him.

 

I'm totally fine with anyone saying the Sox grossly undervalued Bogey. I happen to think he was worth more than Story but not by a ton, and maybe a ton was what BorA$$ was demanding- it's not like anything BorA$$ demands is so hard to fathom.

 

I'm upset and frustrated, too- more over Betts, Lester and the possibility of losing Devers than with Bogey.

 

I'm okay with people going apeshit over how the whole thing was handled from the time we neared the opt out to now. I agree, they did a horrible job, even if some of the press reports are wrong or exaggerations. They should have handled it better.

 

Whether Bogey should still be here or not, I don't know. I'd like to know what BorA$$ was demanding 24, 12, 6 and 2 months ago, before I weigh in on what side I'll take.

 

If the lowest BorA$$ would go was $200M/8, I'd have no problem with the Sox choosing not to give it, and the spike in top player salaries in the last 2-3 weeks does not change my opinion. If it was $180M/8 or even $170M/6 or 7, I'd be on the fence. If it was $160M/6, I'd be upset.

 

I agree, many were upset with the Story signing, at the time, and even more so when he missed much of the season and saw his OPS drop 100 points. At the time of the signing, and I was working off some faulty reasoning, as I expected Story to be able to play SS, if not in 2022, but surely in 2023. I expected Bogey to be a goner since that day. Even after I heard that he'd be playing 2B and likely would stay there for his contract, I still felt Bogey was a goner.

 

I think his age, his unwillingness to move off SS and his lack of plus defense at a key position like SS were behind us not valuing him like many here did and still do. Call out the nerds and defensive metric freaks on non-shift defense, but I think the Sox pay strong attention to that stuff, whether we like it or not.

[moonslav59]

A lot of fans were unhappy , if not insulted, by that. You can imagine how Xander felt. Definitely a major blunder by management.

 

Again, it's only a blunder if he turns out to be worth what we could have gotten him for or more. This whole "definitely" feeling seems awfully cultish to me.

 

The way we handled it was a blunder, for sure. Agree on that.

[Jasonbay44]

A lot of fans were unhappy , if not insulted, by that. You can imagine how Xander felt. Definitely a major blunder by management.

 

Especially considering Xander was a fan favorite, put his heart and soul into this team and helped this team win two rings, while Story was a guy we signed from another team.

[moonslav59]

Especially considering Xander was a fan favorite, put his heart and soul into this team and helped this team win two rings, while Story was a guy we signed from another team.

 

I felt the same about Betts. They both played hard, loved the game and brought a lot of glory to our team.

 

I wish him well, going forward. I'll always be grateful he played for us.

 

It sucked seeing Lynn, Burleson, Fisk and others go too early. That really was something I hoped and thought I'd never see again.

 

Boggs and Pedro were understandable, but watching Lester, Betts and Bogey leave with so much gas left in their tanks hurts just like when I was a teen watching that great 70's team be dismantled.

[Old Red]

A lot of fans were unhappy , if not insulted, by that. You can imagine how Xander felt. Definitely a major blunder by management.

 

This subject has been beaten to death, so I’ll say this part for the last time. If the Red Sox didn’t really want Bogey as some on here believe, and only did the spin, and grin for what purpose who knows than it’s not a blunder, but just a good old slap across the face, and a insult to boot for someone who is homegrown, won two rings, and has been a leader on, and off the field, and his tangibles alone are worth more than Story. Of course tangibles don’t show up on a analytics sheet, so to some that stuff doesn’t matter. On the other hand if Bloom misread the room, which is what I believed happened, and passed that info on to Henry, which I believed happened also then that is a blunder in the highest proportion , and that to me would be a fireable offense to make a blunder that big on a future HOF player. Imagine this team could loose 3 future HOF players in 5 yrs. Once again 3 future HOF players in 5 years gone to other teams.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Old Red

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This subject has been beaten to death, so I’ll say this part for the last time. If the Red Sox didn’t really want Bogey as some on here believe, and only did the spin, and grin for what purpose who knows than it’s not a blunder, but just a good old slap across the face, and a insult to boot for someone who is homegrown, won two rings, and has been a leader on, and off the field, and his tangibles alone are worth more than Story. Of course tangibles don’t show up on a analytics sheet, so to some that stuff doesn’t matter. On the other hand if Bloom misread the room, which is what I believed happened, and passed that info on to Henry, which I believed happened also then that is a blunder in the highest proportion , and that to me would be a fireable offense to make a blunder that big on a future HOF player. Imagine this team could loose 3 future HOF players in 5 yrs. Once again 3 future HOF players in 5 years gone to other teams.

 

Didn't you hear Kennedy at the press conference tell you they lost Bogey because they wouldn't go 11 years? Like anyone last Spring and all Summer anticipated these big time free agents getting Winter contracts into their 40s...

 

MLB channel also told us they learned one thing yesterday: "that Rafael Devers will not be playing the rest of his career in Boston."

 

How can they be sure; the Boston br*******s didn't give Raffy their official send-off yet by anointing him their new Number One Priority.

[redsoxrules]

Didn't you hear Kennedy at the press conference tell you they lost Bogey because they wouldn't go 11 years? Like anyone last Spring and all Summer anticipated these big time free agents getting Winter contracts into their 40s...

 

MLB channel also told us they learned one thing yesterday: "that Rafael Devers will not be playing the rest of his career in Boston."

 

How can they be sure; the Boston br*******s didn't give Raffy their official send-off yet by anointing him their new Number One Priority.

 

You just said yourself, he will not be in Boston next year because they will NOT give Devers a 13 + year contract and that's what he will be looking for based on this off season. And if he as a monster season, over 400 Million

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You just said yourself, he will not be in Boston next year because they will NOT give Devers a 13 + year contract and that's what he will be looking for based on this off season. And if he as a monster season, over 400 Million

 

We know, we know -- the only mistake they're not making this time is to give him the kiss of death as their Priority (now their priority may be to trade him for more than a bucket of BP balls)...

 

... because the Bloom Era never gets their man. Just remember -- as viable free agents sign elsewhere daily -- this is the offseason when "the Red Sox have over $100 million to spend, and will add 8 or 9 new players to compete for the postseason in 2023."

 

Now that they couldn't even spend $13 million AAV on a new starting pitcher (the going rate for a Quintana or Thor), we're told the new strategy will be the trade route. We know there's no way Bloom is dealing any decent prospects, so what can we get for Verdugo, Pivetta or even Kike???

[moonslav59]

This subject has been beaten to death, so I’ll say this part for the last time. If the Red Sox didn’t really want Bogey as some on here believe, and only did the spin, and grin for what purpose who knows than it’s not a blunder, but just a good old slap across the face, and a insult to boot for someone who is homegrown, won two rings, and has been a leader on, and off the field, and his tangibles alone are worth more than Story. Of course tangibles don’t show up on a analytics sheet, so to some that stuff doesn’t matter. On the other hand if Bloom misread the room, which is what I believed happened, and passed that info on to Henry, which I believed happened also then that is a blunder in the highest proportion , and that to me would be a fireable offense to make a blunder that big on a future HOF player. Imagine this team could loose 3 future HOF players in 5 yrs. Once again 3 future HOF players in 5 years gone to other teams.

 

They wanted Bogey- just not at market prices.

 

Henry, Kennedy and everyone else involved in the decision making knew what was going on. There is absolutely no reason to think Bloom passed on misinformation to his bosses.

 

Talk about conspiracies and cults!

[notin]

We all did the math at the time: 6 for $140M for Story's $23.3 AAV, 4 for $90M for Bogey's $22.5 AAV.

 

Maybe fans weren't insulted, but I know a few who were indignant that the Red Sox valued some outsider more than their hometown hero who helped win two World Series for Boston since he was 20 year old.

 

I don’t want to look like I’m defending the Sox FO here, but at some point you’re comparing an initial offer to a final offer and assuming those are the only two offers that ever existed. …

[Old Red]

They wanted Bogey- just not at market prices.

 

Henry, Kennedy and everyone else involved in the decision making knew what was going on. There is absolutely no reason to think Bloom passed on misinformation to his bosses.

 

Talk about conspiracies and cults!

 

Market price was a lot different last offseason then it is this offseason is it not? How do you know Henry doesn’t get his info from Bloom? You don’t anymore than I do, and I doubt very much that Henry knew that the price to sign Bogey would go up as much as it did. I think you are giving Henry way to much credit, which means Bloom didn’t botch things up so bad.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don’t want to look like I’m defending the Sox FO here, but at some point you’re comparing an initial offer to a final offer and assuming those are the only two offers that ever existed. …

 

That's fair, but how do you think Xander or any loyal company man -- you, me, Swihart's ectoplasm -- would feel when offered less money to stay than a newly recruited outsider?

[Old Red]

I don’t want to look like I’m defending the Sox FO here, but at some point you’re comparing an initial offer to a final offer and assuming those are the only two offers that ever existed. …

 

The point being that initial offer was so ridiculous it shouldn’t have even happened in the ist place, and yes I believe that initial offer was true, and yes it has never been refuted, so it doesn’t really matter what offers were made after that. Once Bogey got to FA it was over.

[moonslav59]

Market price was a lot different last offseason then it is this offseason is it not? How do you know Henry doesn’t get his info from Bloom? You don’t anymore than I do, and I doubt very much that Henry knew that the price to sign Bogey would go up as much as it did. I think you are giving Henry way to much credit, which means Bloom didn’t botch things up so bad.

 

I have said all along, IMO, at no point in the process have the Sox felt Bogey was worth market price. Yes, the market prices changed and drastically in the last month or so. Not wanting to pay market price is not the same as not wanting Bogey or having him as a top or the top priority.

 

I'm sure Henry and others get some of their information from Bloom, as well as his opinions and recommendations. I don't think anyone knew the market was going to explode, including Bloom. They all got that wrong, but to me, it has nothing to do with us losing Bogey.

 

IMO, they did not think he was worth about $170M/6 over a year ago. They did not think he was worth $200M/8 during the season and maybe into November, and they certainly don't think he's worth what he got.

 

In hindsight, knowing what the market seems to be settling in at for the best of the best, $200M/8 looks like a good deal, and certainly one can rightfully blame Bloom & the rest of Sox management for not foreseeing the bubble bursting and locking Bogey up before it did. One can logically claim Sox brass for not seeing what was about to happen. I'm not sure many saw it coming, or all these guys might have been locked up long ago.

 

I seriously doubt Bloom was the main guy or only guy getting the market projections wrong. He may or may not have had a major hand in figuring out what they thought Bogey would get. IMO, all along the way, whatever number they thought he'd get- right or wrong, they never felt he was worth paying that or near enough to get him to sign to stay here.

 

We don't know, but maybe, if they had to do it again, they still would not pay him $200M/8, which might be the least he'd have agreed to. Call that a mistake. Call that a major mistake. It's a valid opinion, and when comparing that price to what others are making, it looks like a good deal. My point is, even if it looks like a good market deal, that, alone, does not mean we made a mistake not offering it, especially if they don't think he's worth it. Only time will tell, if he will be worth it, but with inflated salaries, the odds are, in 8 years, he will be, but again, being worth it does not mean we should have done it.

 

There is a 40 man roster and a 26 man roster to think about. There is the future to think about. I think they see Mayer in our system and chose not to spend large and long on a SS who does not want to be moved off SS, whether he's worth $200M or not. Call that a mistake, too. Fine. It very well may be. I'd guess in 8 years we will say it was. We know, now, the Lester situation was a mistake, but certainly he could have declined, and few would still be talking about it.

[moonslav59]

I don’t want to look like I’m defending the Sox FO here, but at some point you’re comparing an initial offer to a final offer and assuming those are the only two offers that ever existed. …

 

There might have been, but yes, who knows? The BorA$$ camp might have said something like, "If you wont come up to $200M/8, don't bother making a counteroffer, and the Sox felt there was no way they'd pay him that.

 

Even in light of what he eventually got, they probably still would not have paid him $200M/8- rightly or wrongly.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t want to look like I’m defending the Sox FO here, but at some point you’re comparing an initial offer to a final offer and assuming those are the only two offers that ever existed. …

 

They should have offered him 6/150, that would have been a perfectly reasonable offer, 10 mill more than Story.

[Old Red]

They should have offered him 6/150, that would have been a perfectly reasonable offer, 10 mill more than Story.

 

That offer would have been perfectly reasonable to me if that would have happened last offseason.When they only offered the non refuted 1 yr ext for $30M is like like coming to a gun fight with a water pistol.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Old Red

[notin]

That's fair, but how do you think Xander or any loyal company man -- you, me, Swihart's ectoplasm -- would feel when offered less money to stay than a newly recruited outsider?

 

Ok but what was the initial offer to Story? Was he offered 4 years/$80 mill and worked up to a better deal? He had the option to walk away, too. But maybe - and I don’t know - he didn’t and worked something out. Maybe Bogaerts did counter, got rebuffed, and decided for PR purposes to only make public the initial offer as well.

 

This is a lot like what happened with Correa and Houston. They made an initial offer of 6/$170 (?) and loyal company man Correa - with a resume similar to Bogaerts - decided to move on as well. Of course, Correa is not a Bogaerts guy…

[notin]

They should have offered him 6/150, that would have been a perfectly reasonable offer, 10 mill more than Story.

 

Maybe they did? Certainly if they did, Camp Boras wouldn’t reveal that for obvious reasons. The Sox can’t and definitely shouldn’t if they want to keep the negotiations open.

 

The Sox side of it was they did talk and Bloom (or whoever) realized the numbers were getting out of hand and they were not going to be competitive. That the 11 year/$280 mill deal came together so quickly certainly showed there were other teams involved. In the past, that has always been where Boras wants to be in his negotiating.

 

I didn’t like the result either, but I just can’t pretend I know everything that went down…