Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[moonslav59]

You left out "big" in your opening quote. It's the whole point of the Bloom vs. Dombrowski debate. For Dave, "quality over quantity" is no mystery -- he just said you win with star players. For Chaim, "quality" means "value" -- which of course actually means "quantity" (spread out over a lot of short-term mediocrities).

 

What there's no debate about is the Red Sox still need better players at many positions. But then we all know that just fielding a team of big leaguers is quite different than fielding a team of big league contenders.

 

And like some here and many elsewhere keep saying, fans don't care how much they spend -- it's all about who they spend it on.

 

Big can mean in total or on just 1-2 players.

 

Even if you choose the latter, we spent $105M on Yoshida and $140M on Story in 9 months is more than how many other teams have spent on 2 players in that time frame? 20? 22?

[moonslav59]

 

And like some here and many elsewhere keep saying, fans don't care how much they spend -- it's all about who they spend it on.

 

Why does everyone seem so sure spending on Bogey was the essential signing?

 

Look, I agree. I wish we'd have signed him a year or two ago. I wish we'd sign another big player (or trade for one,) but I also want us to be good for a long time, and I think that priority has been number one, and still is. We are not signing anyone to more than 1 or 2 years, who will not still be in or near prime when his contract ends. That's a good strategy when you feel you do not yet have the foundation to make a "splurge" signing or two. I thought, before this winter, we were very close to that moment. Maybe the Sox top brass thinks that is 2024 or 2025. I can, at least understand why they think that.

[Bellhorn04]

Why does everyone seem so sure spending on Bogey was the essential signing?

 

Maybe because the Red Sox said he was their #1 priority, and people made the mistake of believing them.

[Old Red]

Maybe because the Red Sox said he was their #1 priority, and people made the mistake of believing them.

 

Some keep saying that the Red Sox Brass didn’t think Bogey was worth the money, and I disagree 100%. He wasn’t worth $280M, or 11 years, but he was worth 6-7 yrs $150M-$200M, which should have been offered to him last off season, but I just don’t think the Red Sox the money would get anywhere near where it got to, and just BOTCHED the whole thing, and I blame Bloom mostly for that, because I’m guessing JH was getting his info from Bloom. Bogeys tangibles to Boston, which doesn’t show up on any analytics sheet was worth $90M in itself. Plain, and simple Bloom botched this from day 1 that he’s had three years to work on.

[moonslav59]

Maybe because the Red Sox said he was their #1 priority, and people made the mistake of believing them.

 

How many times will it take, before people stop believing any GM?

 

Also, they could be dumb enough to have actually believed he was their #1 priority at $170M/6 or thereabouts. (I'm not saying that is the case. I think they lied through their teeth from day one. They never wanted Bogey at market prices. Never.)

[moonslav59]

The Sox did not think he was worth even $180M/7 or $170M/6, last year. If they did, he'd probably be here, right?

[mvp 78]

The Sox did not think he was worth even $180M/7 or $170M/6, last year. If they did, he'd probably be here, right?

 

They were wrong then. If they had signed him, they could have traded him once Mayer was ready. It's a below market contract now.

[Old Red]

Of course to some it just has to be the Red Sox didn’t think Bogey was worth any kind of contract, and if they keep saying it enough it will be true, but I think it’s quite possible, and more likely than not that Bloom just didn’t read the room right, and BOTCHED the whole thing, and I think that dumb, dumbfounded look on Blooms face says it all.

[Old Red]

They were wrong then. If they had signed him, they could have traded him once Mayer was ready. It's a below market contract now.

 

We don’t know if Mayer will ever be ready, or as good as his hype, and of course Bogey would have a no trade anyways, so it wouldn’t be that simple.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

(I'm not saying that is the case. I think they lied through their teeth from day one. They never wanted Bogey at market prices. Never.)

 

This is the perception of the Red Sox right now -- they don't want any homegrown stars at market prices. It's a serious problem for the fans, and therefore a serious mistake by the owners who hired executives to deliver a business plan driven by this philosophy. Personally, I don't believe the job of the front office is to just fill the laundry with good bodies; it also needs to keep favorite familiar faces in the laundry.

 

People that bring up the offers to Mookie forget that each time all were below the market price for top of the industry talent. When they offered him $200M, it was a year too late, and he almost signed; if they had offered $300M, he'd be a Red Sox for life. Two years later, they did offer him $300M, and again that was below his market value at the time. Yes, Betts' camp countered over $400M -- and we now know he settled for something in between.

 

Mookie never said he loved Boston and wanted to finish his career there like Lester and Bogaerts. But none of us know him personally and if he kept that to himself to avoid serious lowball hometown discount offers. What he did say was he just wanted what was fair. If you can forget the numbers, he just meant his own market value.

 

Devers should absolutely hold out for market value; we're just not sure what that has soared to this month, but Bogey's right: the Sox can afford him if they want to... And before anyone starts yelling about Pedroia, I go back before Fisk and Lynn, who both were worth investing in for their long, successful careers.

[mvp 78]

My guess is that they just don't want to pay for top end talent and just want to spread the money around. Maybe also don't want to be on the hook for really long contracts? I think that's the only justification. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it though.

[S5Dewey]

My guess is that they just don't want to pay for top end talent and just want to spread the money around. Maybe also don't want to be on the hook for really long contracts? I think that's the only justification. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it though.

 

IMO that's pretty obvious that they want to spend second rate money, and when you spend second rate money you get second rate results.

[mvp 78]

IMO that's pretty obvious that they want to spend second rate money, and when you spend second rate money you get second rate results.

 

It's their bed, they'll be lying in it. We'll have to see where it shakes out.

 

Maybe they end up looking smart a few years from now? More likely JH goes back to the well and starts paying people again, but that's after all the goodwill has been thrown out the window. Fans don't want to be on this rollercoaster anymore. We've been told that the Sox are going to be competitive year in and year out, but it hasn't happened. They don't keep players that fans want to see. They act like slimy used car salesmen and talk like they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm not sure anyone buys the act anymore. The question is when does it really get ugly for them? And not in terms of talk radio/sports columns, but in terms of apathy or frustration seen at Fenway. I think ownership is insulated from everything else.

[moonslav59]

They were wrong then. If they had signed him, they could have traded him once Mayer was ready. It's a below market contract now.

 

That's a separate point, and I agree, fully.

[S5Dewey]

Why does everyone seem so sure spending on Bogey was the essential signing?

 

Look, I agree. I wish we'd have signed him a year or two ago. I wish we'd sign another big player (or trade for one,) but I also want us to be good for a long time, and I think that priority has been number one, and still is. We are not signing anyone to more than 1 or 2 years, who will not still be in or near prime when his contract ends. That's a good strategy when you feel you do not yet have the foundation to make a "splurge" signing or two. I thought, before this winter, we were very close to that moment. Maybe the Sox top brass thinks that is 2024 or 2025. I can, at least understand why they think that.

 

Most folks I talk with don't think that Bogey was THE essential signing but they think that it was AN essential signing. There are certain players a team builds around and the Sox seem to have a habit of letting those players move on under the guise of, "We don't want to be bad in eight years".

 

The Red Sox have had losing records (let me say that again, LOSING RECORDS) in two of the past four years. This from a team that has one of the highest payrolls in baseball. Their spending keeps MBL from accusing the Sox of "tanking" but it well proves that they're spending their money on the wrong people.

 

What they're doing is not working and some of us want to see them start doing something different. Mediocrity is not a good option for the Boston Red Sox but that seems to be the direction the team is heading in. The RS FO has been publicly selling the story that signing people like Lester, Betts and Bogey will make the team weak in eight years and too many people are buying into it. What they're not telling you is that with their current spending habits this team won't be challenging for any championships within that eight year period either.

[moonslav59]

Of course to some it just has to be the Red Sox didn’t think Bogey was worth any kind of contract, and if they keep saying it enough it will be true, but I think it’s quite possible, and more likely than not that Bloom just didn’t read the room right, and BOTCHED the whole thing, and I think that dumb, dumbfounded look on Blooms face says it all.

 

I'm only repeating my opinion s much as you do.

 

I've even said my opinion is based solely on speculation. How is that trying to force it into becoming thought of as fact?

 

Again, I agree. If they knew the market was going to jump, but did not think Bogey was worth a long term commitment, for whatever reason, they should have signed him and traded him. Big mistake. I'm agreeing with you on this.

 

My points about what I think their reasoning was.

 

[moonslav59]

We don’t know if Mayer will ever be ready, or as good as his hype, and of course Bogey would have a no trade anyways, so it wouldn’t be that simple.

 

All they had to do, if they wanted to trade him, was sign him and move him to another position, right away. (Maybe?)

[S5Dewey]

It's their bed, they'll be lying in it. We'll have to see where it shakes out.

 

Maybe they end up looking smart a few years from now? More likely JH goes back to the well and starts paying people again, but that's after all the goodwill has been thrown out the window. Fans don't want to be on this rollercoaster anymore. We've been told that the Sox are going to be competitive year in and year out, but it hasn't happened. They don't keep players that fans want to see. They act like slimy used car salesmen and talk like they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm not sure anyone buys the act anymore. The question is when does it really get ugly for them? And not in terms of talk radio/sports columns, but in terms of apathy or frustration seen at Fenway. I think ownership is insulated from everything else.

 

Well put.

 

I have the bill for my ST season tix on my desk and I can't get myself to write the check. I probably will write that check but it's not to support the ineptness of the Boston Red Sox but rather because I'm a fan of baseball combined with it being a month in Ft. Myers after a New England winter.

[moonslav59]

This is the perception of the Red Sox right now -- they don't want any homegrown stars at market prices. It's a serious problem for the fans, and therefore a serious mistake by the owners who hired executives to deliver a business plan driven by this philosophy. Personally, I don't believe the job of the front office is to just fill the laundry with good bodies; it also needs to keep favorite familiar faces in the laundry.

 

People that bring up the offers to Mookie forget that each time all were below the market price for top of the industry talent. When they offered him $200M, it was a year too late, and he almost signed; if they had offered $300M, he'd be a Red Sox for life. Two years later, they did offer him $300M, and again that was below his market value at the time. Yes, Betts' camp countered over $400M -- and we now know he settled for something in between.

 

Mookie never said he loved Boston and wanted to finish his career there like Lester and Bogaerts. But none of us know him personally and if he kept that to himself to avoid serious lowball hometown discount offers. What he did say was he just wanted what was fair. If you can forget the numbers, he just meant his own market value.

 

Devers should absolutely hold out for market value; we're just not sure what that has soared to this month, but Bogey's right: the Sox can afford him if they want to... And before anyone starts yelling about Pedroia, I go back before Fisk and Lynn, who both were worth investing in for their long, successful careers.

 

I don't disagree and don't think anything here counters what I think. For some reason we valued extending non-homegrown players like Sale, Nate, Porcello and AGon more than our own, and spent more on Sale, Crawford, Story and others more than many of our homies. We did offer Betts a lot. I do think that was close to market value, at the time. Bogey and lester- NO.

[Old Red]

Most folks I talk with don't think that Bogey was THE essential signing but they think that it was AN essential signing. There are certain players a team builds around and the Sox seem to have a habit of letting those players move on under the guise of, "We don't want to be bad in eight years".

 

The Red Sox have had losing records (let me say that again, LOSING RECORDS) in two of the past four years. This from a team that has one of the highest payrolls in baseball. Their spending keeps MBL from accusing the Sox of "tanking" but it well proves that they're spending their money on the wrong people.

 

What they're doing is not working and some of us want to see them start doing something different. Mediocrity is not a good option for the Boston Red Sox but that seems to be the direction the team is heading in. The RS FO has been publicly selling the story that signing people like Lester, Betts and Bogey will make the team weak in eight years and too many people are buying into it. What they're not telling you is that with their current spending habits this team won't be challenging for any championships within that eight year period either.

 

Bingo! Some are satisfied with the four championships the Red Sox have won since JH took over, and so am I, but like I keep saying all the last place finishes are not all right, and to me should not happen with a payroll that the Red Sox, have, and had.

[moonslav59]

Bingo! Some are satisfied with the four championships the Red Sox have won since JH took over, and so am I, but like I keep saying all the last place finishes are not all right, and to me should not happen with a payroll that the Red Sox, have, and had.

 

I keep hearing many posters in love with all the last place finishes.

 

[mvp 78]

Well put.

 

I have the bill for my ST season tix on my desk and I can't get myself to write the check. I probably will write that check but it's not to support the ineptness of the Boston Red Sox but rather because I'm a fan of baseball combined with it being a month in Ft. Myers after a New England winter.

 

There's no way in hell I'm driving over there this year.

[dgalehouse]

I think it is fair to say that there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and unease in Sox Nation. Many folks are losing trust in Sox management . I keep waiting for some big surprise , like signing Correa and Rodon . But it looks like that is not going to happen. When the Sox finish in the cellar , 21 games behind the Yankees , you would think there would be more of a sense of urgency from management. The question is : are the Boston Red Sox still big time players or are they not ?

[moonslav59]

I think it is fair to say that there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and unease in Sox Nation. Many folks are losing trust in Sox management . I keep waiting for some big surprise , like signing Correa and Rodon . But it looks like that is not going to happen. When the Sox finish in the cellar , 21 games behind the Yankees , you would think there would be more of a sense of urgency from management. The question is : are the Boston Red Sox still big time players or are they not ?

 

Understandable.

 

I will say, the Sox have spent close to $50M AAV on 2023, counting the Kike extension. They may spend $40M more. Spread out, it does not look like "urgency," I agree.

[Old Red]

I think it is fair to say that there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and unease in Sox Nation. Many folks are losing trust in Sox management . I keep waiting for some big surprise , like signing Correa and Rodon . But it looks like that is not going to happen. When the Sox finish in the cellar , 21 games behind the Yankees , you would think there would be more of a sense of urgency from management. The question is : are the Boston Red Sox still big time players or are they not ?

 

Payroll doesn’t necessary mean you are a big time player, or should I say a high payroll does not necessarily mean you are a big time player either.

[moonslav59]

Payroll doesn’t necessary mean you are a big time player, or should I say a high payroll does not necessarily mean you are a big time player either.

 

To me, it's about how much the GM gets in winter spending vs what he lost and the value of the players he lost.

 

This year, we have (maybe) $90M to spend, but when you factor in losing Betts, Nate, JD, Wacha, Hill, Strahm and Vaz, that $90M looks pretty weak.

 

Yes, replacing all of them with just $90M is not being a "big time player," agreed.

 

It's not really being TB North, either.

[Hugh2]

I think it is fair to say that there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and unease in Sox Nation. Many folks are losing trust in Sox management . I keep waiting for some big surprise , like signing Correa and Rodon . But it looks like that is not going to happen. When the Sox finish in the cellar , 21 games behind the Yankees , you would think there would be more of a sense of urgency from management. The question is : are the Boston Red Sox still big time players or are they not ?

 

Correa makes too much sense for Boston. Rodon does not.

 

Carlos plays SS, is a RHH, and will not cost a draft pick. I don’t trust this management/ownership to go hard after him.

[moonslav59]

Correa makes too much sense for Boston. Rodon does not.

 

Carlos plays SS, is a RHH, and will not cost a draft pick. I don’t trust this management/ownership to go hard after him.

 

They see Mayer as the much cheaper option, even if they have to wait a year or two.

 

I see how we can kill two birds with one stone (well, 2 stones):

 

Sign Correa

 

Trade Mayer for an ace at a low cost.

 

If you average Correa's $35M per and an arb pitcher's $5M, we just paid $20M each for an ace and an all star SS.

 

(Ain't happening.)

[Bellhorn04]

I think it is fair to say that there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction and unease in Sox Nation. Many folks are losing trust in Sox management . I keep waiting for some big surprise , like signing Correa and Rodon . But it looks like that is not going to happen. When the Sox finish in the cellar , 21 games behind the Yankees , you would think there would be more of a sense of urgency from management. The question is : are the Boston Red Sox still big time players or are they not ?

 

The organization has the unmistakable odor of dysfunction about it.

[moonslav59]

The organization has the unmistakable odor of dysfunction about it.

 

I have to think they will be affected by all the massive criticism and outright anger by fans and the media over this.

 

Whether they change as a result remains to be seen. (I doubt it.)

 

It's no fun going through this so often, but it was easier to turn my head when we got a ring every few years. I've tried to convince myself having this management group is still worth it, because I honestly feel like our longer term future has been getting bright for 3 straight years, after taking a heavy hit the previous 2-3 years. I'm not so sure hopes and optimism can carry me much longer.

 

I'm really excited about Bello, Casas, Mayer, Bleis, Rafaela, Mata, Yorke, Walter and the amount of second tier prospects like Romero who might take bigs steps up, next season.

 

I'm not sure if the supporting cast of Yoshida, McGuire, Dugo, Whitlock, Houck, Pivetta, Jansen, Martin and a few other players under control for beyond 2023 is enough to feel we are just one or two big additions away from being on top, again.

 

Extending Devers would help, a lot.