Xander Bogaerts has signed with San Diego Padres

[notin]

It's two separate things. Failure to add stud prospects is a big problem, but failure to retain stars is arguably just as big or bigger.

 

Part of the Astros' brilliant approach has been the deals with Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez.

 

Those players sign deals that Sox players (and fans) call lowball offers.

 

The Sox reportedly offered Betts $300mill after 2019. For the 3 previous seasons, Betts was second in MLB in fWAR, but this $300mill offer was a lowball.

 

The player third in fWAR over that timeframe was Alex Bregman, who, one year later, signed a contract worth $100mill over 6 years. That’s lower than the reported offer to Bogaerts! Heck, it’s the lower than the deal Bogaerts opted out of.

 

But their player signed. Why?

[Old Red]

Misplaced blame galore. No doubt, Bloom made several mistakes, a few of them big ones.

 

It all comes down to what we expected 3 years ago. You expected a miracle and are sorely disappointed one did not happen. You can ignore all the factors that led us to thin place in Sox history all you want, but they don't go away. Sure, we can dream about not making the Renfroe trade and maybe a few other moves where Bloom spent $10M or less and horrors of horrors, they guys did not play like all stars. Man he sucks!

 

What's left to build around? A farm. That's where all these guys like Betts, Bogey, Devers and Lester came from. Whose fault is it the only guy we can build around, now, is Houck? Blooms? Maybe his biggest 3 failures are Renfroe, Richards at $10M and Perez at $7M. Sure blame that over $217M Price, $145M Sale and the farm that gave us Houck in 5 years. Makes total sense.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, if you want to wallow in it. Carry on: you do it well.

 

To think Bloom’s 3 biggest failures are Renfroe, Richards, and Perez are a big problem in itself. No wander blaming Bloom isn’t as bad as it should be to some.

[Jasonbay44]

It's two separate things. Failure to add stud prospects is a big problem, but failure to retain stars is arguably just as big or bigger.

 

Part of the Astros' brilliant approach has been the deals with Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez.

 

Dodgers are another example. They buy a lot of players but also always have prospects coming up and contributing. You can develop your farm while still keeping stud players on MLB roster

[moonslav59]

To think Bloom’s 3 biggest failures are Renfroe, Richards, and Perez are a big problem in itself. No wander blaming Bloom isn’t as bad as it should be to some.

 

I'm sure you blame Betts, Bogey and even Sale, yes you said Sale was Bloom's fault as the 3 biggest failures. Keep your blinders in place.

[moonslav59]

Dodgers are another example. They buy a lot of players but also always have prospects coming up and contributing. You can develop your farm while still keeping stud players on MLB roster

 

Dodger, Astros, Braves and even teams like the Mets and Padres, who are going nutty with spending have seen way more meaningful prospects contribute than Houck in 5 years.

 

Seriously, how easy is it to build a winning team with just Houck and a budget not even large enough to offset Betts, half Price and Porcello until the Story signing 2.5 years into Bloom's tenure?

 

People expected a miracle, denied it would have been a miracle to win a ring in the past 3 years, and now find one guy to blame all the misery on out of convenience.

[Bellhorn04]

Those players sign deals that Sox players (and fans) call lowball offers.

 

The Sox reportedly offered Betts $300mill after 2019. For the 3 previous seasons, Betts was second in MLB in fWAR, but this $300mill offer was a lowball.

 

The player third in fWAR over that timeframe was Alex Bregman, who, one year later, signed a contract worth $100mill over 6 years. That’s lower than the reported offer to Bogaerts! Heck, it’s the lower than the deal Bogaerts opted out of.

 

But their player signed. Why?

 

Can't answer with certainty, but it appears that the Astros' timing was just a hell of a lot better...

[Bellhorn04]

Dodger, Astros, Braves and even teams like the Mets and Padres, who are going nutty with spending have seen way more meaningful prospects contribute than Houck in 5 years.

 

Seriously, how easy is it to build a winning team with just Houck and a budget not even large enough to offset Betts, half Price and Porcello until the Story signing 2.5 years into Bloom's tenure?

 

People expected a miracle, denied it would have been a miracle to win a ring in the past 3 years, and now find one guy to blame all the misery on out of convenience.

 

No, the blame is being pinned on ownership and Bloom about equally, I would say.

[Bellhorn04]

This offseason was Bloom's big moment, we pretty much all agreed on that.

 

I do give him credit for what he's been doing with the farm. But I'm shocked at the approach to 2023. It still feels like it might be a punt, in spite of the bullpen additions.

 

It's just really weird.

[Jasonbay44]

This offseason was Bloom's big moment, we pretty much all agreed on that.

 

I do give him credit for what he's been doing with the farm. But I'm shocked at the approach to 2023. It still feels like it might be a punt, in spite of the bullpen additions.

 

It's just really weird.

That’s my biggest gripe. There isn’t really a clear direction. This clearly isn’t a “win now” team and if you knew you weren’t re-signing Xander, JD and Nate, why keep them and let them walk?

 

Why then make moves like signing an old closer in Jansen? Very confusing

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe they're waiting for health reports on Sale and Paxton or something before deciding on further moves? I have no idea.

[Old Red]

I'm sure you blame Betts, Bogey and even Sale, yes you said Sale was Bloom's fault as the 3 biggest failures. Keep your blinders in place.

 

Wow! You still think Perez, and Richards still rank as Bloom’s biggest mistakes. I haven’t heard anyone else say that, but your entitled to your opinion.

[Old Red]

This offseason was Bloom's big moment, we pretty much all agreed on that.

 

I do give him credit for what he's been doing with the farm. But I'm shocked at the approach to 2023. It still feels like it might be a punt, in spite of the bullpen additions.

 

It's just really weird.

 

It’s not weird for someone in over their head, and being the front man for the first time.

[moonslav59]

Can't answer with certainty, but it appears that the Astros' timing was just a hell of a lot better...

 

They were ahead of the curve.

 

Their tanking for a few years helped boost the amount of good prospects they have, but they did other things right, too.

[moonslav59]

That’s my biggest gripe. There isn’t really a clear direction. This clearly isn’t a “win now” team and if you knew you weren’t re-signing Xander, JD and Nate, why keep them and let them walk?

 

Why then make moves like signing an old closer in Jansen? Very confusing

 

I think the direction is to build for the future while trying to at least appear to be semi-competitive along the way.

[moonslav59]

Wow! You still think Perez, and Richards still rank as Bloom’s biggest mistakes. I haven’t heard anyone else say that, but your entitled to your opinion.

 

I don't blame Betts or Bogey on Bloom. We can rehash this for the 100th time, if you wish, but yes, his biggest mistakes were:

 

1. Renfroe

2. Richards

3. Perez

 

Okay, Marwin, Andriese and Diekman sucked more, but if you think $3M dollar signings are bigger mistakes, then Bloom is better than even you think.

 

Maybe he could have gotten slightly more for Betts, so that's not top 3.

 

Maybe he could have met whatever BorA$$ would have taken much earlier in the process or traded him earlier, but until I know the specifics, I'm not counting that as top 3. Even if we could have gotten Bogey for $225M/8 or even $200M/8 of $80M/7, we can't say it's a mistake just yet. I'm fine with you and others saying it is, and I may place it top 3, once more info is known.

 

What are your top 5.

 

What are the best 5 moves Bloom has made?

 

Let's compare.

[Bellhorn04]

moon, we could finish last five years in a row and you'd find a way to have Bloom's good moves outnumber his bad ones. Maybe it's not the right methodology to judge performance by.

 

All the majority of fans care about right now is that we won 78 games last year, this was supposed to be a big offseason, and we may have actually gotten worse.

 

Bloom is going to be judged on the 2023 standings. It will be his fourth season, and if we finish last he'll have done the same as Cherington except that Cherington won it all his second season.

 

And we know what happened to Cherington.

[Old Red]

moon, we could finish last five years in a row and you'd find a way to have Bloom's good moves outnumber his bad ones. Maybe it's not the right methodology to judge performance by.

 

All the majority of fans care about right now is that we won 78 games last year, this was supposed to be a big offseason, and we may have actually gotten worse.

 

Bloom is going to be judged on the 2023 standings. It will be his fourth season, and if we finish last he'll have done the same as Cherington except that Cherington won it all his second season.

 

And we know what happened to Cherington.

 

Well said. Like I’ve also been saying for some time now that I believe most Red Sox fans mostly care about here, and now. Here, and now, and here, and now.

[Bellhorn04]

And if you're going to be listing good moves and bad moves you can't leave out the non-moves, either. moon and mvp and others say it was a damaging non-move not to trade Bogey, JD and Eovaldi, get something for them, and get below the tax line. So that's an example of a bad non-move in your books.

[Old Red]

And if you're going to be listing good moves and bad moves you can't leave out the non-moves, either. moon and mvp and others say it was a damaging non-move not to trade Bogey, JD and Eovaldi, get something for them, and get below the tax line. So that's an example of a bad non-move in your books.

 

I’ve said all along that Bloom had three years to not only deal with Bogey, and Raffy, but all the other expiring contracts as well, and outside of Vaz nobody else was signed, or dealt, and yes still ended up over the tax line, so that ended up to being how many non moves. Starting out with a bad plan for the backend of the BP last year, and watching the circus at 1B, and CF, and not doing anything for 2 months were also non moves that hurt the ball club, so add it all up, and the numbers are up there.

[moonslav59]

moon, we could finish last five years in a row and you'd find a way to have Bloom's good moves outnumber his bad ones. Maybe it's not the right methodology to judge performance by.

 

All the majority of fans care about right now is that we won 78 games last year, this was supposed to be a big offseason, and we may have actually gotten worse.

 

Bloom is going to be judged on the 2023 standings. It will be his fourth season, and if we finish last he'll have done the same as Cherington except that Cherington won it all his second season.

 

And we know what happened to Cherington.

 

No doubt, but because many choose to stick their heads in the sand, doesn't mean I'll do the same.

 

BTW, I'm not sure if making lists proves anything either, of that more good moves means better. The bad m oves magnitude might have outweighed the good, or if he is doing good at 55% and other GMs are doing 60% good, then 55% is not good.

 

I totally understand that GMs are graded on the end results by the vast majority of fans. I get it.

 

[moonslav59]

Indeed, and if we don't win, someone must be to blame. It could not possibly be a set of circumstances that no GM could overcome. Nope. Blame the GM and not even a hint of the chance most had unrealistic expectations to begin with.

 

27 GMs should all be fired. No rings in 3 years!

 

Here and NOW or bye bye!

[Old Red]

Indeed, and if we don't win, someone must be to blame. It could not possibly be a set of circumstances that no GM could overcome. Nope. Blame the GM and not even a hint of the chance most had unrealistic expectations to begin with.

 

27 GMs should all be fired. No rings in 3 years!

 

Here and NOW or bye bye!

 

DD was Fired after 4 winning seasons, and a world championship to boot. Judging by that Bloom should be out the door already, or not had been hired at all.

[Old Red]

No doubt, but because many choose to stick their heads in the sand, doesn't mean I'll do the same.

 

BTW, I'm not sure if making lists proves anything either, of that more good moves means better. The bad m oves magnitude might have outweighed the good, or if he is doing good at 55% and other GMs are doing 60% good, then 55% is not good.

 

I totally understand that GMs are graded on the end results by the vast majority of fans. I get it.

 

Talking about sticking someone’s head in the sand. To say that Perez, and Richards are two of the top three mistakes Bloom has made is burying your whole body. Wow! What an example.

[moonslav59]

Talking about sticking someone’s head in the sand. To say that Perez, and Richards are two of the top three mistakes Bloom has made is burying your whole body. Wow! What an example.

 

Still waiting for your top 5.

 

I said why I don't count Betts, and there isn't enough info on the Bogey issue to say it was Bloom or that it was his fault we missed out on a decent deal or not, since we don't know if that was ever possible.

 

If it turns out, it was possible, AND Bloom was the one who kept JH from making that offer, then yes, that would make my top 3 list.

 

What's your top 5 Blunder list? You probably have it tattooed on your chest.

 

It's easy to criticize others when you don't give your position. Let's have it.

[moonslav59]

DD was Fired after 4 winning seasons, and a world championship to boot. Judging by that Bloom should be out the door already, or not had been hired at all.

 

It doesn't matter at all to you that he was handed a top 5 farm and a checkbook even Theo would have gawked at.

 

You think We'd have done better, these last years had Bloom traded Casas, Bello, Mayer, Rafaela, Mata and others?

 

You think he should have?

 

You think he could have?

 

No, you won't even think about it, or you can't even see it with all the sand filling in around your head.

 

[notin]

DD was Fired after 4 winning seasons, and a world championship to boot. Judging by that Bloom should be out the door already, or not had been hired at all.

 

DD might have been fired for spending too much. It would explain a lot.

 

Fans may only care about winning here and now, but owners can have different key performance indicators….

[Old Red]

Still waiting for your top 5.

 

I said why I don't count Betts, and there isn't enough info on the Bogey issue to say it was Bloom or that it was his fault we missed out on a decent deal or not, since we don't know if that was ever possible.

 

If it turns out, it was possible, AND Bloom was the one who kept JH from making that offer, then yes, that would make my top 3 list.

 

What's your top 5 Blunder list? You probably have it tattooed on your chest.

 

It's easy to criticize others when you don't give your position. Let's have it.

 

Your top three with Perez, and Richards on it is comparable to the bogus offer the Red Sox offered Bogey last offseason, and doesn’t warrant a counter. Wow!

[moonslav59]

DD might have been fired for spending too much. It would explain a lot.

 

Fans may only care about winning here and now, but owners can have different key performance indicators….

 

A more likely theory was that he was fired for spending as much as allowed, trading away 20 prospects that were top 20, at some point, and only creating a 3 year window and a very bleak long term outlook. When they sat down to discuss the direction, he asked for more money for 2020 than they gave him for 2019.

[moonslav59]

Your top three with Perez, and Richards on it is comparable to the bogus offer the Red Sox offered Bogey last offseason, and doesn’t warrant a counter. Wow!

 

I knew you'd never name your top 5. Typical.

 

No, I don't count an initial offer in a negotiation as a possibility of a worst move made by a GM. It matters zero, if we never were going to pay what BorA$$ wanted.As far as I know, we never did, or he'd be signed, so a first offer does not make my top 5 list. As far as a "counter," you must know more about all the offers made than anyone else. Please enlighten us and provide links. (LOL, yeah right! Good luck with that.)

 

Upon further thought, my worst 5:

1. Renfroe trade

2. Not resetting in 2022

3. Not trading Bogey last year (assuming they were pretty sure they'd never offer what it would take, which I'm not so sure was ever true.)

4. Richards signing

5. Paxton signing (I forgot about that one, when I said Perez.)

6. Perez signing

 

(I may change some, if someone reminds me of bigger mistakes.)

 

On Bogey, if we find out, later, we could have had him for $160M/6, I'd think that was a mistake, but again, it's pretty early to know. Afterall, I liked and still like the Story signing, but I may end up being wrong or very wrong. We know the Renfroe trade sucked. We know the Richards signing sucked. We know what Paxton gave us for $6M- nada.

[Old Red]

A more likely theory was that he was fired for spending as much as allowed, trading away 20 prospects that were top 20, at some point, and only creating a 3 year window and a very bleak long term outlook. When they sat down to discuss the direction, he asked for more money for 2020 than they gave him for 2019.

 

I agree with you that without Mookie, Bogey, and Raffy a very bleak long term outlook it is. Courtesy of Bloom, and JH.