Vazquez traded to Houston

[Bellhorn04]

Have you confirmed the Red Sox record without Vaz yet? It’s 4-6, and alternating 2 backup catchers is not sound baseball strategy.

 

Normally it wouldn't be, but it's only 2 months.

[Old Red]

Normally it wouldn't be, but it's only 2 months.

 

I would agree if the Red Sox were officially out of a Wild Card spot, but they are not, and I’m not one of the quitters on here.

[Bellhorn04]

I would agree if the Red Sox were officially out of a Wild Card spot, but they are not, and I’m not one of the quitters on here.

 

No quitters here.

[Old Red]

No quitters here.

 

Anybody who wanted to unload all the expiring contracts at the trade deadline to me was quitting, and I know there were some on here.

[moonslav59]

Their record before the Vazquez trade wasn’t exactly stellar either…

 

It looks like the Astros are alternating catchers, and if anything, Vaz is their back-up, so far.

 

How is that working out for them?

[jad]

So when you go to the store, and they say "Sorry. We're out of your favorite items. But don't worry, we've got some other stuff here: you don't know a thing about it; it's not as good as what you used to buy; you'll pay the same price but it's much cheaper for us!" you're good with that?

[dgalehouse]

Here is the final report on Vaz, as compared to other Sox catchers and how well our pitchers did with him or others catching them.

 

Call it CERA. Call it staff-handling. Call it whatever you want, but almost all of these numbers point in one direction: other catchers got more from our pitchers than Vaz did. This doesn't mean the others were better, overall, or that Vaz did not deserve to start or that he sucked as a catcher. It just shows one aspect of a catchers job and how Vaz compares to other on the Sox.

 

I listed all Sox catchers who had sample sizes larger than 40 IP. One can argue 40-80 or 100 IP sample sizes are too small, and it's a good point, but when they almost all point in the same direction, and the samples with 100+ IP each all show the same thing, I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

Total IP as a Sox Pitcher

CERA Pitcher (IP with catcher)

 

6 Highest IP Starting Pitchers:

 

964 Porcello

3.95 Hanigan (55)

4.19 Leon (576)

4.93 Swihart (112)

4.96 Vaz (211)

5.38 Holaday (82)

 

857 ERod

3.78 Hanigan (50)

4.05 Leon (118)

4.18 Vaz (614)

4.44 Swihart (75)

 

588 Price

2.96 Leon (204)

4.27 Vaz (360)

 

568 Sale

2.51 AJ Pier (226)

2.79 Leon (436)

4.08 Vaz (132)

 

446 Eovaldi

3.40 Plawecki (177)

4.53 Leon (44)

4.64 Vaz (176)

 

 

423 Buccholz

2.83 VMart (241)

3.01 Leon (155)

3.95 Salty (207)

4.44 Vaz (118)

5.63 AJ Pier. (62)

 

Summary:

Vaz 0.80 to 1.00 higher than Leon & Hanigan with Porcello (Significantly higher)

Vaz 0.40 to 0.15 higher than Leon & Hanigan with ERod (Very close)

Vaz 1.30 higher than Leon with Price (Way higher)

Vaz 1.30 to 1.50 higher than Leon & AJ P with Sale(Way higher)

Vaz 0.10 higher than Leon, but 1.25 higher than Plawecki with Eovaldi(Higher)

Vaz 0.50 to 1.60 higher than Leon, Salty & VMart with Buchholz(Much higher)

All 6 did better with others- 4 by a lot, 1 by kinda a lot and 1 close (ERod)

 

The next tier Starters (some as SP & RP):

 

359 Kelly

3.23 Vaz (98)

4.48 Swi (74)

4.63 Leon (56)

4.83 Hanigan (91)

 

334 Wright

2.94 Hanigan (95)

3.49 Vaz (95)

4.06 Swihart (71)

5.83 Leon (59)

 

316 Pomeranz

3.32 Holaday (41)

3.92 Vaz (198)

6.02 Leon (46)

 

 

295 Pivetta

3.41 Plawecki (63)

4.55 Vaz (221)

 

Summary:'

Vaz much better with Kelly

Vaz about in the middle with Wright & Pom

Vaz worse with Pivetta

Looks about dead even, here

 

Relief Pitchers:

 

412 Barnes

3.83 Leon (99)

3.96 Vaz (216)

4.50 Swi (42)

 

266 Workman

3.04 Vaz (136)

3.83 Leon (54)

4.03 AJ Pier, (45)

 

258 Hembree

3.42 Leon (92)

4.26 Vaz (106)

 

184 Kimbrel

1.94 Leon (79)

1.95 Vaz (88)

 

Summary:

Looks about even here, too.

 

Overall, Vaz did about the same with the second tier SP'ers and the top RP'ers, but much worse with the top 6 SP'ers from 2014-2022.

 

Take it for what it is.

 

I still liked Vaz as a catcher, for us, but I think these numbers take away some of the shine.

 

Wow ! That seems like an awful lot of work to go to just to take yet another shot at Christian Vazquez..

[moonslav59]

Wow ! That seems like an awful lot of work to go to just to take yet another shot at Christian Vazquez..

 

 

It's no secret I've never been Vaz's biggest supporter, but I have never called for his removal as our primary catcher. I think he has been a net plus, over the years, despite some down offensive seasons, here and there.

 

I know many of you feel CERA-related data is hocus pocos, and that's fine, but I feel it needs to be pointed out after hearing all the Oooing and fawning over what a great player and clubhouse leader Vaz has been.

 

I wish he was still on the team, but I think we got better after the deadline- both in 2022 and going forward. Bash away, if you must. It's become a habit for you. The thing I find funny, is how you, and others, bash away at so many Sox players, the manager and the GM then seem so thinned-skinned when someone criticizes just one aspect of a player you hold in esteem.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's no secret I've never been Vaz's biggest supporter, but I have never called for his removal as our primary catcher. I think he has been a net plus, over the years, despite some down offensive seasons, here and there.

 

I know many of you feel CERA-related data is hocus pocos, and that's fine, but I feel it needs to be pointed out after hearing all the Oooing and fawning over what a great player and clubhouse leader Vaz has been.

 

I wish he was still on the team, but I think we got better after the deadline- both in 2022 and going forward. Bash away, if you must. It's become a habit for you. The thing I find funny, is how you, and others, bash away at so many Sox players, the manager and the GM then seem so thinned-skinned when someone criticizes just one aspect of a player you hold in esteem.

 

 

Mookie's going bald!

[moonslav59]

Mookie's going bald!

 

lmao!

[Hugh2]

Wait….people actually think we had a shot this year?

 

If this team goes on a run awesome, but I’m all aboard the 2023 train.

[dgalehouse]

It's no secret I've never been Vaz's biggest supporter, but I have never called for his removal as our primary catcher. I think he has been a net plus, over the years, despite some down offensive seasons, here and there.

 

I know many of you feel CERA-related data is hocus pocos, and that's fine, but I feel it needs to be pointed out after hearing all the Oooing and fawning over what a great player and clubhouse leader Vaz has been.

 

I wish he was still on the team, but I think we got better after the deadline- both in 2022 and going forward. Bash away, if you must. It's become a habit for you. The thing I find funny, is how you, and others, bash away at so many Sox players, the manager and the GM then seem so thinned-skinned when someone criticizes just one aspect of a player you hold in esteem.

 

I have no idea what you are even talking about . I do very little bashing of Cora or the players. I am very supportive and always have been. And I'm not the least bit thin skinned. You , on the other hand , always have a player or two that , for some reason , you hold in disdain. You take every criticism of Bloom personally . And you put more folks on ignore and get into more prolonged spats and feuds on here , by far, than anyone. I don't know you , but you seem to have a compulsive urge to have the last word and have your opinions dominate this forum. I promise that I won't be the least bit offended if you put me on ignore permanently.

[moonslav59]

I have no idea what you are even talking about . I do very little bashing of Cora or the players. I am very supportive and always have been. And I'm not the least bit thin skinned. You , on the other hand , always have a player or two that , for some reason , you hold in disdain. You take every criticism of Bloom personally . And you put more folks on ignore and get into more prolonged spats and feuds on here , by far, than anyone. I don't know you , but you seem to have a compulsive urge to have the last word and have your opinions dominate this forum. I promise that I won't be the least bit offended if you put me on ignore permanently.

 

I don't know what you are talking about. I don't hold Vaz in disdain. I offer criticism of one aspect of his game, and you act like I'm saying he sucks, with this "yet another shot" crap. It's always been about just one thing with Vaz- not several different ones. If someone says Vaz sucked, I'd defend him and have, by pointing out his good aspects, namely offense for a catcher, blocking the plate and other areas.

 

I don't take Bloom criticism personally, and I have criticized him, myself, many times. You seem to take issue with one criticism of Vaz. Maybe saying you are "thin-skinned" is going overboard, but you never fail to jump on that point being made and blow it into some some sort of vendetta against Vaz.

 

I have 3 people on ignore- two are trolls, after going years without ever doing it. I disagree with a lot of posters, often, including you, but you are not unreasonable and don't make it personal and are respectful. I've never considered putting you on ignore, although I'm pretty sure, you could care less.

 

I'm hopeful about McGuire, Pham, Hosmer and the prospects. I have no disdain for Vaz. I did for Diekman and Robles (this year.)

[moonslav59]

Wait….people actually think we had a shot this year?

 

If this team goes on a run awesome, but I’m all aboard the 2023 train.

 

That's how I see it. We may squeak into the playoffs, and that would be awesome, but this team is not going to win a ring.

 

I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong, but I'm much more optimistic about 2023 and beyond.

 

To each, his own.

[Old Red]

I have no idea what you are even talking about . I do very little bashing of Cora or the players. I am very supportive and always have been. And I'm not the least bit thin skinned. You , on the other hand , always have a player or two that , for some reason , you hold in disdain. You take every criticism of Bloom personally . And you put more folks on ignore and get into more prolonged spats and feuds on here , by far, than anyone. I don't know you , but you seem to have a compulsive urge to have the last word and have your opinions dominate this forum. I promise that I won't be the least bit offended if you put me on ignore permanently.

 

100% nailed it, and he has even bragged about getting the last word in. JDavis has described him best.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Old Red

[vegasbob]

I would agree if the Red Sox were officially out of a Wild Card spot, but they are not, and I’m not one of the quitters on here.

 

it is not "quitting" to recognize that for multiple reasons , you have no chance to do any postseason damage . Therefore , assess the situation, knowing that you have several players about to expire who you will not resign and try to get some value in return. There is still a chance they may develop or become another trading chip.

 

I'm convinced we kept JDM, EO and the injured Kike because Bloom wanted instant MLB or AAA talent in return, plus pay up the rest of the salary. Well, now he will pay the salaries anyway, and get nothing in return . If he throws a QO out there , he will be making the budget situation worse in return for the remote possibility of a better draft choice.

[moonslav59]

it is not "quitting" to recognize that for multiple reasons , you have no chance to do any postseason damage . Therefore , assess the situation, knowing that you have several players about to expire who you will not resign and try to get some value in return. There is still a chance they may develop or become another trading chip.

 

I'm convinced we kept JDM, EO and the injured Kike because Bloom wanted instant MLB or AAA talent in return, plus pay up the rest of the salary. Well, now he will pay the salaries anyway, and get nothing in return . If he throws a QO out there , he will be making the budget situation worse in return for the remote possibility of a better draft choice.

 

I guess if enough fans felt like we threw in the towel, they’d stop watching and going to games.

 

I’m not sure if Kike had any trade value, but maybe Wacha, Hill and Strahm did.

[Old Red]

it is not "quitting" to recognize that for multiple reasons , you have no chance to do any postseason damage . Therefore , assess the situation, knowing that you have several players about to expire who you will not resign and try to get some value in return. There is still a chance they may develop or become another trading chip.

 

I'm convinced we kept JDM, EO and the injured Kike because Bloom wanted instant MLB or AAA talent in return, plus pay up the rest of the salary. Well, now he will pay the salaries anyway, and get nothing in return . If he throws a QO out there , he will be making the budget situation worse in return for the remote possibility of a better draft choice.

 

No chance to do any postseason damage? You get there first, and then anything could happen, but I agree with you pretty much on the rest that Bloom pretty much bungled things up.

[Old Red]

I guess if enough fans felt like we threw in the towel, they’d stop watching and going to games.

 

I’m not sure if Kike had any trade value, but maybe Wacha, Hill and Strahm did.

 

You seem to think that if fans thought the team threw in the towel to stop watching, and going to the games would be unreasonable? To me not at all, but what would be unreasonable would be to throw in the towel when the team is in contention. Kike sucked from Day 1 this year, so you are right no trade value.

[Old Red]

I don't know what you are talking about. I don't hold Vaz in disdain. I offer criticism of one aspect of his game, and you act like I'm saying he sucks, with this "yet another shot" crap. It's always been about just one thing with Vaz- not several different ones. If someone says Vaz sucked, I'd defend him and have, by pointing out his good aspects, namely offense for a catcher, blocking the plate and other areas.

 

I don't take Bloom criticism personally, and I have criticized him, myself, many times. You seem to take issue with one criticism of Vaz. Maybe saying you are "thin-skinned" is going overboard, but you never fail to jump on that point being made and blow it into some some sort of vendetta against Vaz.

 

I have 3 people on ignore- two are trolls, after going years without ever doing it. I disagree with a lot of posters, often, including you, but you are not unreasonable and don't make it personal and are respectful. I've never considered putting you on ignore, although I'm pretty sure, you could care less.

 

I'm hopeful about McGuire, Pham, Hosmer and the prospects. I have no disdain for Vaz. I did for Diekman and Robles (this year.)

 

Imagine that you dish out disdain on other posters like with you BOY Toy (Kike), but you don’t do it yourself. What a load of crap, and MoonSlop 101. Never smelling your own stink. Priceless, and predictable.

[Old Red]

Completely unfair to Vaz, who is beloved on Talksox, a clubhouse leader, a clutch hitter, and one of the smartest baserunning catchers ever.

 

The Astros clubhouse was jubilant when they found out Vaz was joining them. And since then they have played just marvelous baseball (the 5-5 record does not tell the real story).

 

Losing Vazquez pretty much finishes the Red Sox for this season and probably a couple more.

 

Still trying to confirm the Red Sox record with out Vaz. Well 5-7 must confirm your theory. Probably miss some of his clutch hits.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

No chance to do any postseason damage? You get there first, and then anything could happen, but I agree with you pretty much on the rest that Bloom pretty much bungled things up.

 

So now you're agreeing with Vegas that Bloom should have sold off. Kind of a flip-flop.

[moonslav59]

So now you're agreeing with Vegas that Bloom should have sold off. Kind of a flip-flop.

 

I think he still wishes we'd gone all in by trading prospects that have done nothing for the big team.

 

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Kimmi]

Have you confirmed the Red Sox record without Vaz yet? It’s 4-6, and alternating 2 backup catchers is not sound baseball strategy. Who do you think the guys in the Red Sox clubhouse would rather have Vaz, or Pee Wee Herman?

 

The Orioles have a record of 8-3 since trading Mancini, outscoring their opponents 57-42. Mancini was arguably as much, if not more, a clubhouse leader, great teammate, and fan favorite to the Orioles and Vazquez was to the Sox. Also, Orioles management more or less stated that they didn't think the team had what it takes to make it this year. Yet, the Orioles players have played as hard as and as well as just about any other team since they lost their beloved leader. It's all about mindset.

 

IMO, the Sox are lacking strong leadership from their veteran players, namely Bogaerts and JD. Obviously, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I'm just not sensing it. Duran especially could use some veteran leadership and support, but also Dalbec and even Devers.

[moonslav59]

The Orioles have a record of 8-3 since trading Mancini, outscoring their opponents 57-42. Mancini was arguably as much, if not more, a clubhouse leader, great teammate, and fan favorite to the Orioles and Vazquez was to the Sox. Also, Orioles management more or less stated that they didn't think the team had what it takes to make it this year. Yet, the Orioles players have played as hard as and as well as just about any other team since they lost their beloved leader. It's all about mindset.

 

IMO, the Sox are lacking strong leadership from their veteran players, namely Bogaerts and JD. Obviously, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I'm just not sensing it. Duran especially could use some veteran leadership and support, but also Dalbec and even Devers.

 

Not only do we seem to have a void in clubhouse leadership, they aren't leading by example either.

 

What bugs me the most is that people are lauding the leadership skills of Vaz and others and blaming the team malaise on trading Vaz.

 

Where was the team energy and focus before the trade?

[jad]

The Orioles have a record of 8-3 since trading Mancini, outscoring their opponents 57-42. Mancini was arguably as much, if not more, a clubhouse leader, great teammate, and fan favorite to the Orioles and Vazquez was to the Sox. Also, Orioles management more or less stated that they didn't think the team had what it takes to make it this year. Yet, the Orioles players have played as hard as and as well as just about any other team since they lost their beloved leader. It's all about mindset.

 

IMO, the Sox are lacking strong leadership from their veteran players, namely Bogaerts and JD. Obviously, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I'm just not sensing it. Duran especially could use some veteran leadership and support, but also Dalbec and even Devers.

 

Gee, I wonder why. Given that all the talk this year has been about trading them away for prospects, and F.O. has done absolutely nothing to quash that.

[notin]

Gee, I wonder why. Given that all the talk this year has been about trading them away for prospects, and F.O. has done absolutely nothing to quash that.

 

Well, they didn’t actually trade them. Does that not quash it?

[Old Red]

So now you're agreeing with Vegas that Bloom should have sold off. Kind of a flip-flop.

 

I’ve been straight forward on my opinion on what to do at the trade deadline, and going for a wild card spot. When I said Bloom bungled things up I was agreeing with the posters opinion, and not mine that to their thinking Bloom was a bungler. I keep saying Bloom came to that fork in the road, and looked for a third option. I still haven’t quit on this season.

[Old Red]

I think he still wishes we'd gone all in by trading prospects that have done nothing for the big team.

 

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Slop, slop, and MoonSlop 101.

[Old Red]

Not only do we seem to have a void in clubhouse leadership, they aren't leading by example either.

 

What bugs me the most is that people are lauding the leadership skills of Vaz and others and blaming the team malaise on trading Vaz.

 

Where was the team energy and focus before the trade?

The BIGGEST void in leadership starts at the top with BLOOM. There was team malaise to start the season, and a 10-19 showed that, and I don’t believe the Bungling Bloom handing of the contracts of Bogey, and Raffy helped matters, so lack of leadership yes, but it starts with Bloom, and Cora.