Fire Bloom .

[notin]

That's not the issue. The issue is basically that the Rays saw something we didn't.

 

That happens.

 

The Sox saw something in Pivetta the Phillies didn’t and something in Schreiber the Tigers didn’t and something in Whitlock and German the Yankees didn’t.

 

Of course it dues work both ways as the Sox also saw something in Ort that the Yankees rightfully did not see…

[mvp 78]

That happens.

 

The Sox saw something in Pivetta the Phillies didn’t and something in Schreiber the Tigers didn’t and something in Whitlock and German the Yankees didn’t.

 

Of course it dues work both ways as the Sox also saw something in Ort that the Yankees rightfully did not see…

 

Pivetta was a starting pitcher on a cheap contract and the Sox had nobody in the upper levels of the minors. However, WASN'T THE TRADE ALL ABOUT CONNOR SEABOLD AT THE TIME?!??!? I mean, that's the narrative that was told. Pivetta wasn't inserted in the Sox rotation right away. Seabold was talked about like a coup.

[notin]

Pivetta was a starting pitcher on a cheap contract and the Sox had nobody in the upper levels of the minors. However, WASN'T THE TRADE ALL ABOUT CONNOR SEABOLD AT THE TIME?!??!? I mean, that's the narrative that was told. Pivetta wasn't inserted in the Sox rotation right away. Seabold was talked about like a coup.

 

Who called Seabold a coup?

 

Getting a cheap, controllable (albeit unspectacular) starter like Pivetta for a couple months control of two fading and increasingly ineffective RPs that have combined to pitch for about a dozen or so teams (including Boston) since that trade is coup enough for me.

 

Anything from Seabold at all just makes it look worse for Philly..

[moonslav59]

Of course, losing patience doesn't really cut it as a reason.

 

The disappointing thing is that Bloom's biggest strength is supposed to be pitching.

 

His "strength" was being part of a system that developed young pitchers very well and spotted pitchers on other teams that they felt had something special, or something that could be adjusted to make them better with them. While Bloom literally "wrote the book," we don't really know if he was the talent that made it happen.

 

My original point is that he has seemed to hit on some hidden gems, like Pivetta, Schreiber, Whitlock, Wacha, Strahm, Hill and a few others, but that some of his "misses" have maybe, and I stress the word "maybe" been just bad timing. Of course, one wonders why they didn't or couldn't have done better while with us. Where was that "adjustment" we seem to see with the Rays, even now, after many of their top management guys have left to go to LA, HOU, BOS and elsewhere?

 

He missed with Richards, Perez I, Andriese, Paxton (so far), Sawamura and kind with Perez II, but he has also done pretty well on several others. The jury is still out on Seabold, Wink, German, Kelly and Wallace. (I'm probably missing others.)

 

I'm not sure what the success% in in TB on non-drafted pitchers.

[moonslav59]

That happens.

 

The Sox saw something in Pivetta the Phillies didn’t and something in Schreiber the Tigers didn’t and something in Whitlock and German the Yankees didn’t.

 

Of course it dues work both ways as the Sox also saw something in Ort that the Yankees rightfully did not see…

 

Ort was a minor league Rule 5 draftee, so I'm not sure Bloom expected much, either. You take a bunch of minor league flyers in hopes a couple pan out.

 

Whitlock had to be on the 26, so that was more meaningful than Ort, although a Rule 5 pick is not a major gamble, as he can be returned very cheaply.

 

Pivetta seems to be an example of a guy everyone knew had nasty stuff, but just couldn't put it together enough, especially with the high BB%. Maybe he can be used as an example of a tweak made by the Sox to improve, but it's interesting to note, his BB/9 has increase from 3.4 w PHI to 3.7 w BOS. The improvement has come from lowering his H/9 from 9.5 to 8.4, while slightly improving hi HR/9 from 1.6 to 1.4. His ERA+ went from 78 to 99 with BOS!

 

Schreiber, Whitlock and Wacha are Blooms big hits.

[moonslav59]

Pivetta was a starting pitcher on a cheap contract and the Sox had nobody in the upper levels of the minors. However, WASN'T THE TRADE ALL ABOUT CONNOR SEABOLD AT THE TIME?!??!? I mean, that's the narrative that was told. Pivetta wasn't inserted in the Sox rotation right away. Seabold was talked about like a coup.

 

Sox prospects has this on Nick:

 

After the Red Sox acquired him from the Phillies in 2020, he pitched at the Alternate Training Site until making his final two starts of the year in Boston. Was kept in the minors for long enough in 2020 to delay his qualifying for arbitration and free agency by a year each. Entered 2021 in the Boston rotation.

[mvp 78]

His "strength" was being part of a system that developed young pitchers very well and spotted pitchers on other teams that they felt had something special, or something that could be adjusted to make them better with them. While Bloom literally "wrote the book," we don't really know if he was the talent that made it happen.

 

My original point is that he has seemed to hit on some hidden gems, like Pivetta, Schreiber, Whitlock, Wacha, Strahm, Hill and a few others, but that some of his "misses" have maybe, and I stress the word "maybe" been just bad timing. Of course, one wonders why they didn't or couldn't have done better while with us. Where was that "adjustment" we seem to see with the Rays, even now, after many of their top management guys have left to go to LA, HOU, BOS and elsewhere?

 

He missed with Richards, Perez I, Andriese, Paxton (so far), Sawamura and kind with Perez II, but he has also done pretty well on several others. The jury is still out on Seabold, Wink, German, Kelly and Wallace. (I'm probably missing others.)

 

I'm not sure what the success% in in TB on non-drafted pitchers.

 

For what they've gotten out of Winckowski and Kelly so far, it seems like they did a good job identifying those guys.

[mvp 78]

Ort was a minor league Rule 5 draftee, so I'm not sure Bloom expected much, either. You take a bunch of minor league flyers in hopes a couple pan out.

 

Whitlock had to be on the 26, so that was more meaningful than Ort, although a Rule 5 pick is not a major gamble, as he can be returned very cheaply.

 

Pivetta seems to be an example of a guy everyone knew had nasty stuff, but just couldn't put it together enough, especially with the high BB%. Maybe he can be used as an example of a tweak made by the Sox to improve, but it's interesting to note, his BB/9 has increase from 3.4 w PHI to 3.7 w BOS. The improvement has come from lowering his H/9 from 9.5 to 8.4, while slightly improving hi HR/9 from 1.6 to 1.4. His ERA+ went from 78 to 99 with BOS!

 

Schreiber, Whitlock and Wacha are Blooms big hits.

 

I think Bloom realized the weakness of the farm at the upper levels. Getting a guy like Ort to just help fill in and provide good production and MAYBE be and up and down guy at some point was smart business. Just keep churning those guys.

 

Ort was taken in the same Rule 5 Draft with Tyreque Reed. Reed flatlined this season, but if you free picks to use you may as well use them.

[notin]

I think Bloom realized the weakness of the farm at the upper levels. Getting a guy like Ort to just help fill in and provide good production and MAYBE be and up and down guy at some point was smart business. Just keep churning those guys.

 

Ort was taken in the same Rule 5 Draft with Tyreque Reed. Reed flatlined this season, but if you free picks to use you may as well use them.

 

What exactly were the strengths of the farm at the upper levels?

[moonslav59]

I think Bloom realized the weakness of the farm at the upper levels. Getting a guy like Ort to just help fill in and provide good production and MAYBE be and up and down guy at some point was smart business. Just keep churning those guys.

 

Ort was taken in the same Rule 5 Draft with Tyreque Reed. Reed flatlined this season, but if you free picks to use you may as well use them.

 

I think Bloom has done a better job at rebuilding the farm than I expected. With the rules that make more spending hurt your draft positioning and bonus pool allotments, I thought it would take longer to get to where we are now. Having a high draft pick in 2021 helped. Not going over the tax line in multiple consecutive seasons helped. Not signing QO FAs helped, but Bloom also traded for a lot of prospects, signed a bunch of minor and minor/major league FAs and used the Rule 5 draft to both strengthen and deepen the farm from top to bottom.

 

Of course we don't know for sure just how good the farm is or will be, until we start seeing results, but many of Bloom's trades have sped up the timetable on early returns, and DD's farm turned out to be not as bad or "decimated" as many said it was. We've had some rough times, since Devers was called up. Only Houck has done anything substantial, but from this year to what is expected in 2023, we have a lot of hopes and promising prospects that are expected to see ML action:

 

Graduated in 2022:

Bello

Crawford

Winckowski

Duran

 

ETA: 2022-2023: (ranking)

2. Casas

4. Rafaela (late)

6. Mata (mid)

8. Walter (late)

11. Wong

12. Murphy (mid)

14. EValdez (mid)

23. Seabold

24. Downs

27. German

29. Kelly

32. RHern (mid)

49. Politi (mid)

56. Granberg (late)

 

Maybe a couple slated for 2024 may surprise us with a late 2023 showing in the bigs:

 

17. Lugo

18 Ward

26. Abreu

 

[moonslav59]

What exactly were the strengths of the farm at the upper levels?

 

Houck, although he was not really expected to be this good.

 

That's about it. (Taylor or Crawford is maybe second & third best.)

 

These are the graduated prospects since Devers in Sept '17:

 

Brasier 8/18

Taylor 8/19

Dalbec 5/21

Whitlock 6/21 (not from our farm)

Houck 9/21

Duran 7/22

Crawford 8/22

Wink 9/22

Bello 10/22

 

People who want to minimize the affect a weak farm has on a team need only look closely at this list from the start of 2018 to late 2022. 5 years from Devers in 9/17 to Bello in 10/22 with just Houck, Taylor and Crawford as minor league additions!

 

That is god-awful!

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

What exactly were the strengths of the farm at the upper levels?

 

Guys working at WOO in 2020:

Downs - coaches were saying that he was looking ok, but would be better when the lights were on (nope)

Duran - had just started unleashing some power potential, but was still largely unknown what it would look like in game

Dalbec - lots of power, lots of k's, not many AB's in AAA at that point

Houck - had split time between starting and relieving at the end of the prior year and his numbers got better in the pen, still a question mark

CJ Chatham - he can hit line drives and play average defense maybe

Wong - the thought at the time was potential utility guy and unsure if he was a fulltime catcher

 

That was it.

[moonslav59]

Guys working at WOO in 2020:

Downs - coaches were saying that he was looking ok, but would be better when the lights were on (nope)

Duran - had just started unleashing some power potential, but was still largely unknown what it would look like in game

Dalbec - lots of power, lots of k's, not many AB's in AAA at that point

Houck - had split time between starting and relieving at the end of the prior year and his numbers got better in the pen, still a question mark

CJ Chatham - he can hit line drives and play average defense maybe

Wong - the thought at the time was potential utility guy and unsure if he was a fulltime catcher

 

That was it.

 

Had Mata and Ward not been injured, they might have been ML ready by 2021 or 2022. Not sure that would qualify them for top of the minors. Mata did pitch in AA some in 2019, I believe.

[mvp 78]

Had Mata and Ward not been injured, they might have been ML ready by 2021 or 2022. Not sure that would qualify them for top of the minors. Mata did pitch in AA some in 2019, I believe.

 

Maybe 2022, I don't think they would have been ready by 2021.

[mvp 78]

Had Mata and Ward not been injured, they might have been ML ready by 2021 or 2022. Not sure that would qualify them for top of the minors. Mata did pitch in AA some in 2019, I believe.

 

5.03 ERA in 50 innings there. He was young for the level at 20.

[moonslav59]

Maybe 2022, I don't think they would have been ready by 2021.

 

Agreed.

 

The top of the farm was very week from mid 2017 to mid 2022.

 

The middle and bottom were not looking all that great either, but some of DD's additions have risen more than expected.

[notin]

Guys working at WOO in 2020:

Downs - coaches were saying that he was looking ok, but would be better when the lights were on (nope)

Duran - had just started unleashing some power potential, but was still largely unknown what it would look like in game

Dalbec - lots of power, lots of k's, not many AB's in AAA at that point

Houck - had split time between starting and relieving at the end of the prior year and his numbers got better in the pen, still a question mark

CJ Chatham - he can hit line drives and play average defense maybe

Wong - the thought at the time was potential utility guy and unsure if he was a fulltime catcher

 

That was it.

 

So… Houck

[mvp 78]

So… Houck

 

The cupboard was bare at that level, but don't use certain Keith Law descriptors please!

[moonslav59]

The cupboard was bare at that level, but don't use certain Keith Law descriptors please!

 

This where I really see the people who expected Bloom to produce immediate results are missing a key aspect of how GMs build winning rosters.

 

Tanner Houck is the only guy since Devers graduated from prospect status in 2017. Let that sink in!

 

The near miracle of getting Whitlock does not count as a farm addition, but where would we be without that addition?

[vjcsmoke]

Those who staunchly support Bloom, can I ask what has he accomplished that makes you so sure that he's making all the right moves?

 

How many championships does he have on his resume?

 

Were the Rays so special under his 'management' that you really feel the Red Sox should adopt that kind of model - try to be competitive while fielding low budget teams? It doesn't seem to suit a team that year after year carries a top 3 payroll.

 

How far have the Red Sox progressed or regressed since Bloom took over in 2019?

 

One could easily argue that the Red Sox have regressed overall, failing to make the playoffs and landing dead last in the AL East division race.

 

Last but not least the big trades that Bloom has made have generally fallen flat and the Red Sox ended up losing them.

 

Mookie Betts for Verdugo and prospects? Big LOSE.

 

Hunter Renfroe for Jackie Bradley Jr.? Big LOSE.

 

How about free agency acquisitions?

 

Trevor Story for 140m dollars? Big LOSE and overpay!

 

So tell me what exactly gives you faith that Chaim Bloom is still the right man for the job?

 

He has shown a callous disregard for keeping clubhouse leaders and homegrown talent. Who will he show the door next? He already deleted Mookie Betts and Christian Vazquez. Who's next on his chopping block - Bogaerts or Devers? Will you still be singing his praises once he ships those guys out the door?!

[moonslav59]

Those who staunchly support Bloom, can I ask what has he accomplished that makes you so sure that he's making all the right moves?

 

 

Nobody has come close to saying he has made all the right moves.

 

No need to respond to rest.

[Hugh2]

Agreed.

 

The top of the farm was very week from mid 2017 to mid 2022.

 

The middle and bottom were not looking all that great either, but some of DD's additions have risen more than expected.

 

Other than Casas, I’m not really sure who I could credit DD with.

[Bellhorn04]

Other than Casas, I’m not really sure who I could credit DD with.

 

Bello, Mata, Houck?

[Hugh2]

Bello, Mata, Houck?

 

Houck yes, he’s a good pick but not excellent. Bello and Mata id bet my life would be in the system no matter who the GM/President is. Those guys don’t have their hands on those type of plays, with the exception being a first round pick and even then I’d be willing to bet they often defer to their scouting department unless it’s a high pick. First pick is GM, after that I doubt they know much about any of these guys until they’re signed and in the system.

 

Mata and Rafeala I give the credit where the credit is due. Eddie Romero.

[Old Red]

Nobody has come close to saying he has made all the right moves.

 

No need to respond to rest.

 

The jury is still out on Bloom one way, or the other. Looks like he whiffed on Schwarber too, and DD didn’t.

[moonslav59]

Houck yes, he’s a good pick but not excellent. Bello and Mata id bet my life would be in the system no matter who the GM/President is. Those guys don’t have their hands on those type of plays, with the exception being a first round pick and even then I’d be willing to bet they often defer to their scouting department unless it’s a high pick. First pick is GM, after that I doubt they know much about any of these guys until they’re signed and in the system.

 

Mata and Rafeala I give the credit where the credit is due. Eddie Romero.

 

It might have been an organizational choice to stop trading promising prospects after the 2018 season, so crediting DD for keeping all our top prospects might be unwarranted, but the fact is, many of the prospects acquired under DD were not traded. We hear about the ones that were traded, all the time- even those not taken first. It's only fair he gets credit for those acquired and kept by him and the organization. He also kept some prospects acquired before he was the GM, so when someone says he "decimated" the farm, they are totally discarding Devers, who was our top prospect in 2017 [/b. Beni was a numb er 1, at one point, too- not traded by DD. Chavis was one of our top prospects from before DD and was never traded by DD.

 

DD drafted Groome in the first round of 2016. He was our top prospect at the end of 2017, due to Beni & Devers graduating, but still, he was not traded by DD.

 

Dalbec may not have been highly coveted by other GMs, but he did begin to show promise before DD's tenure ended and was not traded. Chatham, too.

 

One would expect most of an organization's top prospects to have been acquired 3-6 years ago, unless you had top 5 picks in the last 2 years. I'm not trying to gloss over the fact that between Devers and Bello, only Houck has been a major factor. That's a pretty long stretch of very little farm significance, but here is how it looks, right now with Bello #3 at highest ranking, Duran #3, Crawford #16 as recent graduates:

 

soxprospects.com: (Red= in farm under DD)

 

Mayer

Casas

Bleis

Rafaela

Yorke

Mata

Romero

Walter

Paulino

Anthony

Wong

Murphy

Wikelman

E Valdez

Perales

Jordan

Lugo

Ward

Bonaci

 

There is no doubt, the many prospect trades by DD hurt the farm, and hurt the big club after the players acquired by those prospects moved on from the team or their years of initial team control when acquired, but DD's farm was not as bad as many of us thought it was when he left.

[moonslav59]

The jury is still out on Bloom one way, or the other. Looks like he whiffed on Schwarber too, and DD didn’t.

 

So every FA not signed by a GM on a restricted spending budget is a "whiff?"

 

I thought you were against signing him to such a big contract, too. You blasted those who wanted to sign him to a "lifetime contract," as I recall. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

 

(I was not for signing Schwarber for what he was signed for, unless we traded JD, which may have been difficult to do without including $5-10M, which in a sense should have been added to the price of Schwarber's contract.)

[Hugh2]

It might have been an organizational choice to stop trading promising prospects after the 2018 season, so crediting DD for keeping all our top prospects might be unwarranted, but the fact is, many of the prospects acquired under DD were not traded. We hear about the ones that were traded, all the time- even those not taken first. It's only fair he gets credit for those acquired and kept by him and the organization. He also kept some prospects acquired before he was the GM, so when someone says he "decimated" the farm, they are totally discarding Devers, who was our top prospect in 2017 [/b. Beni was a numb er 1, at one point, too- not traded by DD. Chavis was one of our top prospects from before DD and was never traded by DD.

 

DD drafted Groome in the first round of 2016. He was our top prospect at the end of 2017, due to Beni & Devers graduating, but still, he was not traded by DD.

 

Dalbec may not have been highly coveted by other GMs, but he did begin to show promise before DD's tenure ended and was not traded. Chatham, too.

 

One would expect most of an organization's top prospects to have been acquired 3-6 years ago, unless you had top 5 picks in the last 2 years. I'm not trying to gloss over the fact that between Devers and Bello, only Houck has been a major factor. That's a pretty long stretch of very little farm significance, but here is how it looks, right now with Bello #3 at highest ranking, Duran #3, Crawford #16 as recent graduates:

 

soxprospects.com: (Red= in farm under DD)

 

Mayer

Casas

Bleis

Rafaela

Yorke

Mata

Romero

Walter

Paulino

Anthony

Wong

Murphy

Wikelman

E Valdez

Perales

Jordan

Lugo

Ward

Bonaci

 

There is no doubt, the many prospect trades by DD hurt the farm, and hurt the big club after the players acquired by those prospects moved on from the team or their years of initial team control when acquired, but DD's farm was not as bad as many of us thought it was when he left.

 

I'm not knocking DD at all, he was a great GM. I'm just not crediting him with building up the system. He built up the big league club and went for it and ultimately got a ring out of it so I'd be a fool to complain. In hindsight, he traded the right guys, but I think that's a lot of luck too. Nobody can predict with 100% accuracy a human being's future. For example, when the traded Moncada, I seriously doubt they thought he would bust but rather knew they had to part with a premium talent to get a guy like Chris Sale. DD went for the present and did very little to build for the future and I give him very little credit for the system.

 

That's not a knock on him as a GM, he came in and did what he was tasked to do, and to be fair if you go back to his earlier days he has a history of building up a system. It's within him to do and he's a smart guy....he just didn't do that here.

[Old Red]

So every FA not signed by a GM on a restricted spending budget is a "whiff?"

 

I thought you were against signing him to such a big contract, too. You blasted those who wanted to sign him to a "lifetime contract," as I recall. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

 

(I was not for signing Schwarber for what he was signed for, unless we traded JD, which may have been difficult to do without including $5-10M, which in a sense should have been added to the price of Schwarber's contract.)

I’m not the HOBO, and Bloom is, so because I was wrong I guess Bloom is too. Lifetime contract? Are you still hung up on that? Schwarber may have been worth signing, but a big hell no on any lifetime contract. Pure lunacy! Maybe Storyland should have been the one not signed. DD may be headed to the WS, and Bloom is sitting home watching. The jury might not have to deliberate much longer.

[notin]

The jury is still out on Bloom one way, or the other. Looks like he whiffed on Schwarber too, and DD didn’t.

 

To his credit, Dombrowski has not done in Philadelphia what he did in Boston and Detroit. No 6 or 7 years mega-contracts. No emptying the upper levels of the farm. (Heck he actually tried using them.)

 

Interestingly, he has reverted to his Detroit days in hoping and praying a closer happens as opposed to his Boston days of stockpiling the bullpen with closers (most of whom got hurt).

 

Bloom obviously liked Schwarber; he traded for Kyle while he was on the Injured List and waited out the impact. But he “whiffed” because the Sox were simply too close to their budget limit to afford a second DH while having other vacancies in the lineup.

 

By the way, does this newfound love of Schwarber mean you’re finally through referring to him as Fred Flintstone in a derogatory manner?