Fire Bloom .

[Old Red]

The won - loss record is what matters the most. It 's not about " Bloom bashers " , it's about reality, honesty and success or failure.

 

But when the WL record isn’t good the defense team has to go to something else to try to make things out to be better than they really are.

[moonslav59]

The won - loss record is what matters the most. It 's not about " Bloom bashers " , it's about reality, honesty and success or failure.

 

Can you answer my question?

 

Would a repeat of 2021 be enough?

[Old Red]

A fair opinion, for sure.

 

Some see more context and nuances than others, when it comes to assigning blame.

 

Was Bloom responsible for 2020? If you say, no, then there is an acceptance of more than W-L as the final and only gauge of success or failure.

 

Of course 2021 and 2022 did not have all the context that 2020 had, but the world is not always so black or white to some of us.

 

.

Like I keep saying a ring in 2021 would not make it right to be a losing last place in the division team in 2022.

[Old Red]

Can you answer my question?

 

Would a repeat of 2021 be enough?

 

Would a repeat of 2022 make it bad enough?

[moonslav59]

Would a repeat of 2022 make it bad enough?

 

YES, of course!

 

(See how easy it is to answer with a question.)

[moonslav59]

Like I keep saying a ring in 2021 would not make it right to be a losing last place in the division team in 2022.

 

Like you keep saying, "I never said it did."

[dgalehouse]

Can you answer my question?

 

Would a repeat of 2021 be enough?

 

My answer is " no". I think 2021 is only good as compared to 2020 and 2022. It was not a rousing success. The Sox tied for second and third , 8 games out of first and just one game out of fourth. They did have a nice little run in the playoffs. In no way does that compensate for the two dismal last place finishes.

[cukes]

Like I keep saying a ring in 2021 would not make it right to be a losing last place in the division team in 2022.

 

Exactly, instead of hiring Bloom they should have hired the Rays scouts who are very good at spotting young players and give Kevin Cash some ammunition to work with and he is a master of manipulation by understanding each players capabilities, reminds me of a great manager who could do that, Billy Martin. managed two teams in every game he was in

[Old Red]

Like you keep saying, "I never said it did."

 

Nor does how many rings the Red Sox have won under JH make it alright for all the last place finishes.

[Old Red]

YES, of course!

 

(See how easy it is to answer with a question.)

 

Good! I call Bloom, and tell him he’s on notice, and his job is on the line.

[moonslav59]

But when the WL record isn’t good the defense team has to go to something else to try to make things out to be better than they really are.

 

If playing the toughest schedule in MLB does not matter or make a slight difference to you or others, that's fine. I can disagree and think otherwise., but it's our right to look beyond just place ranking and W-L record when evaluating just how bad this team has been.

 

Nobody is saying the toughest schedule makes us a good team. We are just trying to state our opinion that maybe we are not as bad as the record and rankings indicate.

 

Having a rigid criteria is a choice you and others make.

 

When some of us look back at 30 or more years of complete frustration following the Sox followed by 4 rings and a bunch of last place finishes, we can view the results in many various ways.

 

For one, I'm thrilled with the JH era. It's way better than anything I saw, before. That tempers my opinion on where we are right now. I know you like to say, "Last year was last year," but that is just your view.

 

Nobody likes last place finishes. I don't think I dislike them any more of less than you or others. It sucks- bigtime.

 

I could add a "but..." here, but it won't get us anywhere we haven't already been.

 

"Better than they really are" is a subjective view.

 

Where we go from here is largely affected by where you think we are, right now.

[moonslav59]

Good! I call Bloom, and tell him he’s on notice, and his job is on the line.

 

I try really hard to answer any questions asked of me.

 

I wonder why others can't even try to answer simple questions.

 

I'm fine with follow up questions, but can you just answer this one question?.

[dgalehouse]

I hope he can score hits like Wacha, Hill, Strahm, Schreiber, Refsnyder, McGuire and others, like last winter. Those results speak for themselves, too.

 

Sure, there is the JBJ deal everyone wants to focus, solely on and the W-L record, and yes, we cannot have a repeat of this year.

 

Would a repeat of 2021 be good enough for the bloom-bashers?

 

The players you list as Bloom's " hits " are actually just the kind of guys who fill out the roster of bad ball clubs. Nothing to build on or write home about.

[moonslav59]

Nor does how many rings the Red Sox have won under JH make it alright for all the last place finishes.

 

In your opinion, obviously not.

 

I wouldn't say it's "alright,"either, but I'd choose this philosophy over the '72 to '03 philosophy 7 days a week. I know those shouldn't be the only two choices, but IMO, the only way you find the balance we need is to build and maintain a deep and strong farm- something many think differently about. (I'm not claiming to know better than those who want to use the farm for the hear and now by trading many of the best away. It's just my opinion.) Building a farm takes time. Seeing the results of a built up farm takes even more time. Finishing last and panicking by trading away almost the whole farm is the type of plan that gets us to where we are, right now.

[moonslav59]

The players you list as Bloom's " hits " are actually just the kind of guys who fill out the roster of bad ball clubs. Nothing to build on or write home about.

 

I know that, but I think it's a pipedream to think we can fix 10 holes with guys like Judge and Turner.

 

When you look at the 2020 roster, we've improved in many areas.

 

The farm has begun to help and looks to keep helping more than from 2016-2021.

 

Improving slightly at a few psoi2tions, so we can focus more resources on key upgrades is a solid plan, when you don't have the Dodger's owner.

[Old Red]

If playing the toughest schedule in MLB does not matter or make a slight difference to you or others, that's fine. I can disagree and think otherwise., but it's our right to look beyond just place ranking and W-L record when evaluating just how bad this team has been.

 

Nobody is saying the toughest schedule makes us a good team. We are just trying to state our opinion that maybe we are not as bad as the record and rankings indicate.

 

Having a rigid criteria is a choice you and others make.

 

When some of us look back at 30 or more years of complete frustration following the Sox followed by 4 rings and a bunch of last place finishes, we can view the results in many various ways.

 

For one, I'm thrilled with the JH era. It's way better than anything I saw, before. That tempers my opinion on where we are right now. I know you like to say, "Last year was last year," but that is just your view.

 

Nobody likes last place finishes. I don't think I dislike them any more of less than you or others. It sucks- bigtime.

 

I could add a "but..." here, but it won't get us anywhere we haven't already been.

 

"Better than they really are" is a subjective view.

 

Where we go from here is largely affected by where you think we are, right now.

I know where we are a losing last place in the division team. A division that we have been in for many years now.I have been a Red Sox fan longer than you. I have also said that JH has been a good owner, but where we differ is that to me the Red Sox didn’t win any rings for many many years had more to do with circumstances on the field than if JH was the owner, or not in all those years. I go one year at a time, and judge them for what they are good, or bad, and that works for me. To say we’re in 10th place in the league is not good no matter how you slice it, and dice it.

[Old Red]

In your opinion, obviously not.

 

I wouldn't say it's "alright,"either, but I'd choose this philosophy over the '72 to '03 philosophy 7 days a week. I know those shouldn't be the only two choices, but IMO, the only way you find the balance we need is to build and maintain a deep and strong farm- something many think differently about. (I'm not claiming to know better than those who want to use the farm for the hear and now by trading many of the best away. It's just my opinion.) Building a farm takes time. Seeing the results of a built up farm takes even more time. Finishing last and panicking by trading away almost the whole farm is the type of plan that gets us to where we are, right now.

And all this time I thought injuries, and underperforming of players got us to where we are right now. That to me is a lot bigger reason than blaming DD for trading away prospects, and the exaggeration of wiping out the farm.

[Old Red]

I know that, but I think it's a pipedream to think we can fix 10 holes with guys like Judge and Turner.

 

When you look at the 2020 roster, we've improved in many areas.

 

The farm has begun to help and looks to keep helping more than from 2016-2021.

 

Improving slightly at a few psoi2tions, so we can focus more resources on key upgrades is a solid plan, when you don't have the Dodger's owner.

Every time you keep saying how many holes there are to fill the number gets bigger. Isn’t that what Bloom gets paid the big bucks for to fix things?

[dgalehouse]

If playing the toughest schedule in MLB does not matter or make a slight difference to you or others, that's fine. I can disagree and think otherwise., but it's our right to look beyond just place ranking and W-L record when evaluating just how bad this team has been.

 

Nobody is saying the toughest schedule makes us a good team. We are just trying to state our opinion that maybe we are not as bad as the record and rankings indicate.

 

Having a rigid criteria is a choice you and others make.

 

When some of us look back at 30 or more years of complete frustration following the Sox followed by 4 rings and a bunch of last place finishes, we can view the results in many various ways.

 

For one, I'm thrilled with the JH era. It's way better than anything I saw, before. That tempers my opinion on where we are right now. I know you like to say, "Last year was last year," but that is just your view.

 

Nobody likes last place finishes. I don't think I dislike them any more of less than you or others. It sucks- bigtime.

 

I could add a "but..." here, but it won't get us anywhere we haven't already been.

 

"Better than they really are" is a subjective view.

 

Where we go from here is largely affected by where you think we are, right now.

 

The Sox played the A.L. East schedule. And all the other A.L. East teams seem to be doing okay with that schedule. In Inter league , they played the N.L. Central , the weakest in the N.L. It would probably have been worse if they played the N.L. West or East. Don't complain about the schedule , assemble a better ballclub. The Sox won the " toughest division in MLB " in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That should always be the goal. Last place sucks.

[moonslav59]

I know where we are a losing last place in the division team. A division that we have been in for many years now.I have been a Red Sox fan longer than you. I have also said that JH has been a good owner, but where we differ is that to me the Red Sox didn’t win any rings for many many years had more to do with circumstances on the field than if JH was the owner, or not in all those years. I go one year at a time, and judge them for what they are good, or bad, and that works for me. To say we’re in 10th place in the league is not good no matter how you slice it, and dice it.

 

I agree. 10th place sucks.

 

I don't think Oh for 80+, then 4 in 20 is a fluke not influenced by the owner and management team he put in place.

 

Agree to disagree on that. Yes, we came close in '67, '75, '78 and '86, and yes, we lost on the field and due to circumstances like Rice getting hurt, but by your standards, isn't that just excuse making for poor management choices?

[moonslav59]

And all this time I thought injuries, and underperforming of players got us to where we are right now. That to me is a lot bigger reason than blaming DD for trading away prospects, and the exaggeration of wiping out the farm.

 

1. Umlike others, I have never said DD "emptied the arm," but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say his trades had a profound affect on the prospect pipeline from 2015 to 2021.

 

2. He traded about 20 prospects that at one time or another were top 20 Sox prospects. We can argue, in hindsight, how many turned out to be plusses, but that's an undisputed fact. No other Sox GM has come close to doing that in just 3 years. (BTW, I'm fine with those choices but accept the consequences, too.)

 

3. Injuries and underperforming players are also part of the reason. Where did anyone ever say the bad farm was the only reason?

[moonslav59]

The Sox played the A.L. East schedule. And all the other A.L. East teams seem to be doing okay with that schedule. In Inter league , they played the N.L. Central , the weakest in the N.L. It would probably have been worse if they played the N.L. West or East. Don't complain about the schedule , assemble a better ballclub. The Sox won the " toughest division in MLB " in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That should always be the goal. Last place sucks.

 

Again, I'm not sugar coating last place. I'm not denying we suck. I'm not complaining about the schedule. I'm pointing out that is was a factor. I don't want us to be in the ALC or ALW. BTW, the ALE has never been as tough as now, so bringing up 2016-2018 is deceptive.

 

If you don't want to add any context, fine.

 

Nowhere have I ever even hinted that not winning is or should be our goal. Those kind of statements are absurd and inflammatory.

[Old Red]

Again, I'm not sugar coating last place. I'm not denying we suck. I'm not complaining about the schedule. I'm pointing out that is was a factor. I don't want us to be in the ALC or ALW. BTW, the ALE has never been as tough as now, so bringing up 2016-2018 is deceptive.

 

If you don't want to add any context, fine.

 

Nowhere have I ever even hinted that not winning is or should be our goal. Those kind of statements are absurd and inflammatory.

The ALE has never been as tough as it is now? I remember one year years ago that the 5th place team in the ALE had a better record than some other division winner back when the Brewers were in the ALE, and had good teams, and like it was mentioned all the other teams in the division had a winning record, so if the Red Sox want to compete they will just have to suck it up, and get better. If not they will stay at the kiddie table.

[Old Red]

I agree. 10th place sucks.

 

I don't think Oh for 80+, then 4 in 20 is a fluke not influenced by the owner and management team he put in place.

 

Agree to disagree on that. Yes, we came close in '67, '75, '78 and '86, and yes, we lost on the field and due to circumstances like Rice getting hurt, but by your standards, isn't that just excuse making for poor management choices?

What were the poor management choices in 67, 75, 78, and 86 that had JH would have been the Owner they wouldn’t have happened?

[notin]

What were the poor management choices in 67, 75, 78, and 86 that had JH would have been the Owner they wouldn’t have happened?

 

I think you missed his point…

[moonslav59]

Not even counting all of the promising prospects traded for guys like Pedro, Schill, Agon, Sale and Kimbrel, look at the farm pipeline of the past to that of the last 4-5 years. How can that not be accepted as part of the reason rebuilding the team has been so slow and sporadic? Tight budgets and injuries, and just plain bad luck have been factors, but here's an incomplete list of major farm additions over the last decade or so.

 

Some here have stated that they expected to see Bloom farm help after just 3 years. Many are the same ones that bitched about trades that brought us prospects, like Betts, Beni, Ottavino, JBJ and others (not that some were not worthy of criticism.)

 

2012-2016

Betts

Devers

Bogey

Beni

JBJ

Barnes

Vaz

Workman

Iggy

TShaw

 

2017-2021

Houck

Dalbec

Duran

Brian Johnson

(I can't think of anyone else.)

 

2022

Casas

Bello

Wink

Crawford

Wong

Downs

 

Due to the delay in rebuilding the farm and then developing the rebuild, we should start seeing some of Bloom's prospects in the next 1-5 years. (One could count Whitlock as a Bloom prospect, but he really should not count as a Sox farm product. Wink, Seabold and German, yes, to some degree.

 

I'm not saying the b loom bashers ignore this, but I hardly ever hear them add this type of context to the results that clearly are linked to what type of players a GM gets from the farm established over the previous 2-6 years.

 

Then, there are the prospect trades we all are all-to-familiar with.

 

[notin]

The Sox played the A.L. East schedule. And all the other A.L. East teams seem to be doing okay with that schedule. In Inter league , they played the N.L. Central , the weakest in the N.L. It would probably have been worse if they played the N.L. West or East. Don't complain about the schedule , assemble a better ballclub. The Sox won the " toughest division in MLB " in 2016, 2017 and 2018. That should always be the goal. Last place sucks.

 

Actually, 2016 and 2017 were the weakest seasons in AL East history since 1989…

[Old Red]

Not even counting all of the promising prospects traded for guys like Pedro, Schill, Agon, Sale and Kimbrel, look at the farm pipeline of the past to that of the last 4-5 years. How can that not be accepted as part of the reason rebuilding the team has been so slow and sporadic? Tight budgets and injuries, and just plain bad luck have been factors, but here's an incomplete list of major farm additions over the last decade or so.

 

Some here have stated that they expected to see Bloom farm help after just 3 years. Many are the same ones that bitched about trades that brought us prospects, like Betts, Beni, Ottavino, JBJ and others (not that some were not worthy of criticism.)

 

2012-2016

Betts

Devers

Bogey

Beni

JBJ

Barnes

Vaz

Workman

Iggy

TShaw

 

2017-2021

Houck

Dalbec

Duran

Brian Johnson

(I can't think of anyone else.)

 

2022

Casas

Bello

Wink

Crawford

Wong

Downs

 

Due to the delay in rebuilding the farm and then developing the rebuild, we should start seeing some of Bloom's prospects in the next 1-5 years. (One could count Whitlock as a Bloom prospect, but he really should not count as a Sox farm product. Wink, Seabold and German, yes, to some degree.

 

I'm not saying the b loom bashers ignore this, but I hardly ever hear them add this type of context to the results that clearly are linked to what type of players a GM gets from the farm established over the previous 2-6 years.

 

Then, there are the prospect trades we all are all-to-familiar with.

 

Bloom Bashers who bitched! Wow! How much more original can you get?

[moonslav59]

The ALE has never been as tough as it is now? I remember one year years ago that the 5th place team in the ALE had a better record than some other division winner back when the Brewers were in the ALE, and had good teams, and like it was mentioned all the other teams in the division had a winning record, so if the Red Sox want to compete they will just have to suck it up, and get better. If not they will stay at the kiddie table.

 

Maybe, I'm wrong, but I think this was the best the ALE has ever been, in terms of most wins by all 5 teams. It has slipped a bit from when I first said it- back when we had no losing records in the division, but I still think it is the strongest, top to bottom, ever. (Show me I'm wrong, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

 

2 in top 8 (2 in 12 would be the norm)

3 in top 12 (3 in 18 the norm)

4 in top 14 (4 in 24)

5 in top 18 (5 in 25-30)

 

2021

2 in top 7

3 in 8

4 in 9

but BAL was 30th with 110 losses

 

2018

2 in 3

3 in 11

4 in 22

5 in 30 (BAL had 115 losses)

 

2013

2 in 9

3 in 14 BAL w 77 losses)

4 in 15 NYY w 77

5 in 22 (TOR w 88 losses)

 

2007

2 in 4

3 in 15 (TOR w 77 losses)

4 in 27 (BAL w 93)

5 in 30 (TBR w 96)

 

2004

2 in 3

3 in 18 (BAL w 84)

4 in 23 (TBR w 91)

5 in 26 (TOR w 94)

 

 

 

 

And once again, I think you are reading more into one part of adding context to this season's sucky record. Strength of schedule does factor into a team's record, Like it or not.

[moonslav59]

Bloom Bashers who bitched! Wow! How much more original can you get?

 

The truth hurts, huh?

 

Would it help if I switched to a more wordy "Those who feel Bloom is in over his head complainers?" Maybe shorten to the BOHC club?