Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

I thought we were talking payroll for tax purposes. That's what we usually go by.

 

Tax payrolls:

 

2019 243.6

2022 234.5

 

2022 is 3-4% lower.

 

Those numbers don't reflect the drop in payroll, particular new spending and in 2020, massive cuts in actual spending.

 

That 2019 number also included Castillo & Pablo, but the 2022 number included Sale and half Price.

[Bellhorn04]

Those numbers don't reflect the drop in payroll, particular new spending and in 2020, massive cuts in actual spending.

 

That 2019 number also included Castillo & Pablo, but the 2022 number included Sale and half Price.

 

OK, but let's not cry poor for Bloom in 2022. He had 23.3 mill for Story and 12 mill for Bradley etc.

[notin]

OK, but let's not cry poor for Bloom in 2022. He had 23.3 mill for Story and 12 mill for Bradley etc.

 

Be fair. Bradley was net $5mill

[Hugh2]

Yeah, that's why my last sentence was "If there weren't restrictions on going over the luxury tax, I think the Sox payroll would be much higher compared to other teams."

 

I think the Sox have no problem going over the luxury tax line, they don't want to stay above it. With that in mind, they make deals with the future in mind. Who is coming off the books in 2023/24/25 etc etc etc. If they want to resign both Bogaerts and extend Devers, they actually don't have THAT much to spend going forward when you consider how many holes they have to fill.

 

Whether we like it or not, our success over the next couple of years is going to largely be tied to health.

[Bellhorn04]

Be fair. Bradley was net $5mill

 

There was no obligation to Renfroe.

[moonslav59]

OK, but let's not cry poor for Bloom in 2022. He had 23.3 mill for Story and 12 mill for Bradley etc.

 

I'm not. I'm just pointing our two major disparities between DD and Bloom, and I have often said the Bloom tight budget lasted from day one to mid March 2022.

[moonslav59]

I think the Sox have no problem going over the luxury tax line, they don't want to stay above it. With that in mind, they make deals with the future in mind. Who is coming off the books in 2023/24/25 etc etc etc. If they want to resign both Bogaerts and extend Devers, they actually don't have THAT much to spend going forward when you consider how many holes they have to fill.

 

Whether we like it or not, our success over the next couple of years is going to largely be tied to health.

 

Health, the farm quality and JH's willingness to spend.

[moonslav59]

There was no obligation to Renfroe.

 

They could have easily traded Renfroe for no monetary cost in return. We may not have gotten much, but still...

[Old Red]

Health, the farm quality and JH's willingness to spend.

 

Bloom’s competence, or not.

[Old Red]

I'm not. I'm just pointing our two major disparities between DD and Bloom, and I have often said the Bloom tight budget lasted from day one to mid March 2022.

 

The biggest disparity between DD, and Bloom is that DD has a long resume of building winning baseball teams, and Bloom does not.

[mvp 78]

OK, but let's not cry poor for Bloom in 2022. He had 23.3 mill for Story and 12 mill for Bradley etc.

 

And he was ok with paying 12 for Bradley because 7 for Renfroe was too much!

[mvp 78]

Be fair. Bradley was net $5mill

 

They could have just nontendered Renfroe and been better off.

[mvp 78]

I think the Sox have no problem going over the luxury tax line, they don't want to stay above it. With that in mind, they make deals with the future in mind. Who is coming off the books in 2023/24/25 etc etc etc. If they want to resign both Bogaerts and extend Devers, they actually don't have THAT much to spend going forward when you consider how many holes they have to fill.

 

Whether we like it or not, our success over the next couple of years is going to largely be tied to health.

 

Sale is off after 2024.

 

Barnes is off after 2023.

 

Whitlock and Story are the only current long term contracts besides those two.

 

They pay Manny and Pedey about 4-5M every year through 2026.

[Old Red]

And he was ok with paying 12 for Bradley because 7 for Renfroe was too much!

 

Not paying Bradley $12M in the first place like Milwaukee did was the smart move. Trading for Bradley after was the not so smart move. Must have been that 160 BA that caught Bloom’s eye.

[Bobe2]

Be fair. Bradley was net $5mill

 

He was a lot more than 5 mill, 2022 Bradley owed 9.5 million, 2023 12 million mutual option, buyout 8 million so whether he’s here or not Jackie cost the Sox 17.5 million for one unproductive year

[mvp 78]

Not paying Bradley $12M in the first place like Milwaukee did was the smart move. Trading for Bradley after was the not so smart move. Must have been that 160 BA that caught Bloom’s eye.

 

You see, JBJ has a really good glove and there's no way that his bat is going to be as horrible as it was in 2021. That was an aberration! You're talking about ALCS MVP JBJ!

[moonslav59]

Bloom’s competence, or not.

 

That's certainly part of it, but when I look at the totality of his moves made and the circumstances around his winter spending budget and the philosophy to build for the future (by not trading away top prospects and actually trying to add prospects via trades) as part of the plan he was brought in under, I see a vastly different view than you and many others do.

[moonslav59]

The biggest disparity between DD, and Bloom is that DD has a long resume of building winning baseball teams, and Bloom does not.

 

DD has never been hired to build for the future. You don't think that is significant?

[mvp 78]

DD has never been hired to build for the future. You don't think that is significant?

 

He rebuilt the Tigers from nothing and kept them in contention for the majority of the 13 years he was there even though it included 4 years of rebuilding at the beginning.

 

Tigers 2003 - AL Record 119 Loses

Tigers 2006 - AL Pennant

 

C'mon man...

[moonslav59]

He rebuilt the Tigers from nothing and kept them in contention for the majority of the 13 years he was there even though it included 4 years of rebuilding at the beginning.

 

Tigers 2003 - AL Record 119 Loses

Tigers 2006 - AL Pennant

 

C'mon man...

 

He was hired to build up their farm for a longer term outlook?

 

No, he was hired to trade away their farm, if needed to win as soon as possible.

 

C'mon man!

 

He didn't get to the pennant in 3 years by looking to improve the farm.

[notin]

He was hired to build up their farm for a longer term outlook?

 

No, he was hired to trade away their farm, if needed to win as soon as possible.

 

C'mon man!

 

He didn't get to the pennant in 3 years by looking to improve the farm.

 

 

DD did do a nice job in Detroit, although even at the time many questioned that insane extension he gave to Miguel Cabrera (which will still be in place in 2023).

 

Certainly Cabrera has declined to the point where he is not an asset at $30mill per, but I do think the PR for having him conclude his HOF career and collect his 3,000th hit in Detroit has been one of the few things Tigers’ fans have had to watch…

[mvp 78]

He was hired to build up their farm for a longer term outlook?

 

No, he was hired to trade away their farm, if needed to win as soon as possible.

 

C'mon man!

 

He didn't get to the pennant in 3 years by looking to improve the farm.

 

He "traded everything away" but was able to be in 2nd place or better in 7 of 9 years? 9 years! Traded EVERYTHING away? C'mon...

 

The Tigers had Scherzer, Verlander, Cabrera...

 

Who was traded away when you look at the 2006 squad? Most of it was homegrown guys! https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.shtml

 

The big moves were all Free Agents (Rogers/Ordonez/Rodriguez), not trades? Like where do you come up with this stuff???

 

Look at the roster. Who was the important guy that they traded for? Which prospect did they trade for the 2006 team???

[mvp 78]

DD did do a nice job in Detroit, although even at the time many questioned that insane extension he gave to Miguel Cabrera (which will still be in place in 2023).

 

Certainly Cabrera has declined to the point where he is not an asset at $30mill per, but I do think the PR for having him conclude his HOF career and collect his 3,000th hit in Detroit has been one of the few things Tigers’ fans have had to watch…

 

The Cabrera contract and the Fielder contract were the two items that can come under suspicion. However, he played a large role in turning that org around. He just couldn't get them over the top and give them a good bullpen.

[Old Red]

DD has never been hired to build for the future. You don't think that is significant?

 

No! The future is NOW.

[moonslav59]

He "traded everything away" but was able to be in 2nd place or better in 7 of 9 years? 9 years! Traded EVERYTHING away? C'mon...

 

The Tigers had Scherzer, Verlander, Cabrera...

 

Who was traded away when you look at the 2006 squad? Most of it was homegrown guys! https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.shtml

 

The big moves were all Free Agents (Rogers/Ordonez/Rodriguez), not trades? Like where do you come up with this stuff???

 

Look at the roster. Who was the important guy that they traded for? Which prospect did they trade for the 2006 team???

 

"Trade everything?"

[moonslav59]

No! The future is NOW.

 

It was in BOS in 2015. It was in Philly, this time.

 

The future was not now in BOS after 2019, and that was not Bloom's choice.

 

It might be your choice, but not the organization- like it or not.

 

It might be the choice in 2023.

Edited October 25, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

The Cabrera contract and the Fielder contract were the two items that can come under suspicion. However, he played a large role in turning that org around. He just couldn't get them over the top and give them a good bullpen.

 

The Fielder contract looked like a massive overreaction to the knee injury to starting DH Victor Martinez, especially since it lead to one of the worst decisions that FO made - returning Cabrera to 3b the following season.

 

Fortunately the damage was short-lived as they were able to pawn off the overpaid Fielder to Texas for the overpaid Ian Kinsler…

[mvp 78]

"Trade everything?"

 

What farm pieces did he trade to get the 2006 WS team? That was your assertion! Or were you just making s*** up?

[mvp 78]

The Fielder contract looked like a massive overreaction to the knee injury to starting DH Victor Martinez, especially since it lead to one of the worst decisions that FO made - returning Cabrera to 3b the following season.

 

Fortunately the damage was short-lived as they were able to pawn off the overpaid Fielder to Texas for the overpaid Ian Kinsler…

 

I vaguely remember the media blaming the Fielder contract on ownership at the time, but...

[Old Red]

It was in BOS in 2015. It was in Philly, this time.

 

The future was not now in BOS after 2019, and that was not Bloom's choice.

 

It might be your choice, but not the organization- like it or not.

 

Like Kennedy said at the year end press conference we all failed this year meaning himself, Cora, and Bloom. We’ve been over this hundreds of times already that to some fans they only care what’s happening here, and now, and that here, and now is a losing team with a last place in the Div finish. That’s a failure, and Bloom is a failure, and all the excuse making, and Pom Pom waving is not going to change that. DD was fired 10 months after winning a WS, so by that criteria Bloom who hasn’t won a thing, and has 2 last place finishes to his resume should be out the door. To me this was a bad hire by JH if he wants to having a winning big league ball club. Building up the farm I agree with, but is not the most important thing.