Fire Bloom .

[notin]

Yeah, I think the one-year suspension had something to do with it.

 

The fact he hired him back after that actually spoke well for his opinion of Cora as a manager, no?

 

I seem to recall he was let go before being suspended. Of course, even if that is the case, it could also mean he was fired before the suspension was announced…

[Bellhorn04]

I seem to recall he was let go before being suspended. Of course, even if that is the case, it could also mean he was fired before the suspension was announced…

 

Minutiae.

 

(Frankly, I just like to test myself to see if I can spell that word right the first time.)

[Bellhorn04]

I think so, too.

 

The 2019 team was one of the two most expensive rosters in team history, and finished up at 84-78, and about a dozen games out of the playoffs. And just never felt competitive. I’m sure that was a big factor in how things are run today

 

Personally, I think the 2019 team was a classic case of championship hangover. And it seems pretty obvious some of the pitchers paid a price (pun intended) for their use in the postseason, with starters also pitching innings in relief.

 

If Henry was really frustrated by the 2019 team's underperformance, that's on him IMHO.

[Dipre]

Personally, I think the 2019 team was a classic case of championship hangover. And it seems pretty obvious some of the pitchers paid a price (pun intended) for their use in the postseason, with starters also pitching innings in relief.

 

If Henry was really frustrated by the 2019 team's underperformance, that's on him IMHO.

 

...and he writes the checks.

[Bellhorn04]

...and he writes the checks.

 

Oh I get that 100%. But don't sell us fans short - we're the people who put that money in the bank account.

[Maxbialystock]

I seem to recall he was let go before being suspended. Of course, even if that is the case, it could also mean he was fired before the suspension was announced…

 

The suspension and the letting go were definitely connected. Otherwise, Cora would not have been rehired for the 2021 season (and 2 seasons since).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think so, too.

 

The 2019 team was one of the two most expensive rosters in team history, and finished up at 84-78, and about a dozen games out of the playoffs. And just never felt competitive. I’m sure that was a big factor in how things are run today

 

That '19 team was doomed from the start by two things:

 

1. the reason no one ever repeats -- pitching staff burnout (not "restgate") from throwing high leverage innings up to the previous November; remember, none of the guys in the championship rotation were as good nor healthy the next year, except ERod -- the youngest starter, and also the one who threw the least amount of innings the previous postseason.

 

2. the early schedule -- MLB conspired to send the champs on a dreaded 11-game West Coast road trip to begin the season (actually 13, since they made the Sox stop in Arizona to play two meaningless games vs. the Cubs after the Grapefruit League ended, including the day before Opening Day). Meanwhile, the first-place Yankees got to play their first nine vs. Detroit and Baltimore, two last-place clubs who combined to lose 222 games in '19. It's not unreasonable -- if the two rival schedules were reversed -- that the Sox might've opened 9-3 instead of 3-9... which maybe changes the way they approached the deadline and September (when they had a losing month, playing out the string).

[Maxbialystock]

Personally, I think the 2019 team was a classic case of championship hangover. And it seems pretty obvious some of the pitchers paid a price (pun intended) for their use in the postseason, with starters also pitching innings in relief.

 

If Henry was really frustrated by the 2019 team's underperformance, that's on him IMHO.

 

Dodgers pitchers pitched more innings in the 2018 postseason than did the Sox pitchers. And in 2019 the Dodgers won 106 games in the regular. So much for the "pitched themselves into exhaustion" theory (with respect to the Sox).

 

What is entirely possible is that both Price and Sale simply ran out of steam in 2019 because both were not only lousy in 2019 but in every season since.

 

And that--beyond any question--is what has to be bugging John Henry. He paid big bucks for both of them and got minimal value--with the giant caveat that 2018 was one pretty great season. Last year, 2022, the Sox paid Sale $30M and Price $16M. Same for 2021 and probably/maybe for 2019 and 2020.

[Bellhorn04]

Dodgers pitchers pitched more innings in the 2018 postseason than did the Sox pitchers. And in 2019 the Dodgers won 106 games in the regular. So much for the "pitched themselves into exhaustion" theory (with respect to the Sox).

 

Ha, but who won in 2018? Maybe we won because of the price our pitchers paid in how they were used, starting and relieving?

 

Remember Keith Foulke in the 2004 postseason? Terry Francona destroyed Foulke's arm in the Yankee series. Foulke threw 100 pitches in 3 days in cold weather. But it was worth it.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Dodgers pitchers pitched more innings in the 2018 postseason than did the Sox pitchers. And in 2019 the Dodgers won 106 games in the regular. So much for the "pitched themselves into exhaustion" theory (with respect to the Sox).

 

 

LA also had more depth, as usual; of their top five in games started in '18 (21 or more GS), only two started that many in '19: Kershaw and Bueler, 24 years old at the time -- and the kind of young stud Bloom should be scouring the universe for...

[Dipre]

There's that word that the Sox are always lacking in the pitching pipeline and MLB level: Depth.

[Bellhorn04]

LA also had more depth, as usual; of their top five in games started in '18 (21 or more GS), only two started that many in '19: Kershaw and Bueler, 24 years old at the time -- and the kind of young stud Bloom should be scouring the universe for...

 

Amazingly enough, the Red Sox have a lower team ERA than the Dodgers this year.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Amazingly enough, the Red Sox have a lower team ERA than the Dodgers this year.

 

You're talking Earned Run Averages? That ERA is different than Error Run Averages... or for Boston pitchers, those extra outs they're forced to get every inning are calculated into their Burned Run Averages.

[Dipre]

E for effort.

[dgalehouse]

John Henry seems kind of disconnected from the team lately, but I have seen no indication that he is thinking of selling. He does deserve credit for having been willing to spend what it took to make to Sox able to compete with the best. However, praising him for " four rings " is ridiculous. He has no control over that. It is up to the players to make the plays at the right time .Many owners in all sports have built teams with the ability to win it all, but have often come up just short.

[Bellhorn04]

John Henry seems kind of disconnected from the team lately, but I have seen no indication that he is thinking of selling. He does deserve credit for having been willing to spend what it took to make to Sox able to compete with the best. However, praising him for " four rings " is ridiculous. He has no control over that. It is up to the players to make the plays at the right time .Many owners in all sports have built teams with the ability to win it all, but have often come up just short.

 

This doesn't make a lot of sense, Denny. If it's all up to the players, that would also mean Bloom has nothing to do with the state of the team right now, it's just that the players aren't playing well.

[moonslav59]

I would not be at all surprised, if we had no rings had JH not been our owner.

 

I guess one can call this praise, but to me, it’s just describing reality. The previous owners seemed content on just coming close and giving fans the perception that we were “close.”

 

JH hired the right guys and spent what was needed to get us over the top, as well as rearing a few times.

 

I’m happy he was and still is the owner. One can poo poo the 4 rings in 20 years all they want. I’m not so sure about the idea of rolling the dice on hopes a replacement ownership will come close to that.

[dgalehouse]

This doesn't make a lot of sense, Denny. If it's all up to the players, that would also mean Bloom has nothing to do with the state of the team right now, it's just that the players aren't playing well.

 

You need a good team to begin with. Bloom put this team together. He is responsible for it. In the pre Henry years, the Sox had many teams that were good enough to win it all , but could not quite get it done for one reason or another. There is nothing the owner can do about that. I hope that makes more sense.

[moonslav59]

You need a good team to begin with. Bloom put this team together. He is responsible for it. In the pre Henry years, the Sox had many teams that were good enough to win it all , but could not quite get it done for one reason or another. There is nothing the owner can do about that. I hope that makes more sense.

 

Every Sox fan I knew was aware that ownership would not go that extra mile to get it done. We all knew it was about pitching, and the Sox never went out and got one.

 

The “near misses” were not the result of the owner going all in.

Lonborg was no ownership brilliance.

Tiant was not either.

Clemens took no special ownership intrusions.

The Pedro trade marked the seed change, and that was before JH, but it took the change of vision to bring Schilling, Beckett, Lackey, Sale and Price aboard. That just never happened, before.

[Bellhorn04]

You need a good team to begin with. Bloom put this team together. He is responsible for it. In the pre Henry years, the Sox had many teams that were good enough to win it all , but could not quite get it done for one reason or another. There is nothing the owner can do about that. I hope that makes more sense.

 

We could debate this forever, but when you go 80+ years without winning and then win 4 times in 15 years under the same owner, I think he has to get some credit.

[dgalehouse]

I have been around a long time . And I have seen a number of heartbreaking losses over the years. Outstanding Sox teams that just missed. Many to the Yankees, but also to the Cardinals, Guardians, Reds, Mets and others. Sometimes due to just one play or managerial decision. There is nothing an owner can do about that. That is my point.

[dgalehouse]

We could debate this forever, but when you go 80+ years without winning and then win 4 times in 15 years under the same owner, I think he has to get some credit.

 

I give him credit for spending what it took to compete with the best teams.

[Bellhorn04]

I give him credit for spending what it took to compete with the best teams.

 

There's that, plus the Henry team brought in Epstein and Francona etc. It takes good management too.

[Dipre]

John Henry seems kind of disconnected from the team lately, but I have seen no indication that he is thinking of selling. He does deserve credit for having been willing to spend what it took to make to Sox able to compete with the best. However, praising him for " four rings " is ridiculous. He has no control over that. It is up to the players to make the plays at the right time .Many owners in all sports have built teams with the ability to win it all, but have often come up just short.

 

So you're all of: A) Assuming he's disconnected from the team, which is almost certainly untrue, but Unwilling to give him credit for the Sox winning four championships when he's the owner of the team. Kind of unfair if you ask me. Poor John "The Reptilian Iluminati" Henry.

[Dipre]

You need a good team to begin with. Bloom put this team together. He is responsible for it. In the pre Henry years, the Sox had many teams that were good enough to win it all , but could not quite get it done for one reason or another. There is nothing the owner can do about that. I hope that makes more sense.

 

Lotta assumptions. But we have some actual facts: 2004, 2007, 2013 and 2018.

[notin]

Lotta assumptions. But we have some actual facts: 2004, 2007, 2013 and 2018.

 

But how do you define “a good team to begin with.” 2013 and 2018 both won it all. But 2014 and 2019 both looked similar to their predecessors and yet got 26 and 24 games worse respectively….

Edited June 29, 2023 by notin

[dgalehouse]

In conclusion , the owner needs to do what it takes to put a good team on the field. In the past, Henry has done that. Other owners have as well. Now, Henry seems to have reversed course. But , no matter what , the owner cannot will the team to win a short series or a single game. Ultimately, that comes down to the Dave Roberts, the David Ortiz', the Calvin Schiraldis , the Bucky Dents, the Bob Gibsons, the Bill Buckners, the Aaron Boones, etc. , etc. In the end, somebody has to make the big play or just be a little lucky. The owner cannot control all of that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Every Sox fan I knew was aware that ownership would not go that extra mile to get it done. We all knew it was about pitching, and the Sox never went out and got one.

 

The “near misses” were not the result of the owner going all in.

Lonborg was no ownership brilliance.

Tiant was not either.

Clemens took no special ownership intrusions.

The Pedro trade marked the seed change, and that was before JH, but it took the change of vision to bring Schilling, Beckett, Lackey, Sale and Price aboard. That just never happened, before.

 

The late-70s Red Sox loaded with borderline Hall of Famers signed the then-best reliever in baseball, Bill Campbell, who had 17 wins in '76 (not a typo), and the next year traded for 23-year old All-Star starter Dennis Eckersly, and signed the pitcher who won the '77 World Series in Mike Torrez.

 

That was the first time in my life they ever were all-in acquiring serious pitching... and the '78 team won 99 games -- more than any other year the past half century except 2018... it just didn't work out.

[Dipre]

In conclusion , the owner needs to do what it takes to put a good team on the field. In the past, Henry has done that. Other owners have as well. Now, Henry seems to have reversed course. But , no matter what , the owner cannot will the team to win a short series or a single game. Ultimately, that comes down to the Dave Roberts, the David Ortiz', the Calvin Schiraldis , the Bucky Dents, the Bob Gibsons, the Bill Buckners, the Aaron Boones, etc. , etc. In the end, somebody has to make the big play or just be a little lucky. The owner cannot control all of that.

 

Based on what? The fact that he wants to make the team's spending more efficient and the team itself more of a sustainable winner doesn't mean he's not all in on winning.

[Randy Red Sox]

It is just that the players are not that good. The Sox are weak behind the dish and throughout the IF unless you consider Raffy as a decent defensive 3B. Yoshida is terrible in LF with the glove. CF and RF are fine. Te rotation is held together by Duct tape and the BP is basically fine. That all adds up to a 40-41 record at the mid point.

This doesn't make a lot of sense, Denny. If it's all up to the players, that would also mean Bloom has nothing to do with the state of the team right now, it's just that the players aren't playing well.