Fire Bloom .

[Bellhorn04]

It seems like a yes or no question. Yes they’ve struggled against teams under .500, but they have a winning record against teams over .500.

 

A quick look tells me they’re 12-15 against teams under .500.

 

Of course that also means they’re 28-24 against teams over .500. (No team is currently exactly .500.)

 

Are you saying that first record makes the second one moot?

 

Well of course, there's that well-worn sports cliche about "playing to the level of the competition". And it's not really a positive trait of a team. And the 2023 Sox seem to be giving it validation...

[redsoxrules]

DD did a great job. He was hired to open the wallet and get a ring and he succeeded. Not just that he did make some great trades along the way. Steve Pearce, without him who knows what happens in that Dodgers series. Nate was also a huge part of the 2018 ring that he traded for. Craig Kimbrel was a great trade and obviously Chris Sale.

 

The only move that I didn't like at the time was the last deal with Sale. It still mind boggling to this day why he would extend him for 5 years with a bad arm/shoulder.

 

Prospects are great but they don't all pan out.

[Bellhorn04]

DD did a great job. He was hired to open the wallet and get a ring and he succeeded. Not just that he did make some great trades along the way. Steve Pearce, without him who knows what happens in that Dodgers series. Nate was also a huge part of the 2018 ring that he traded for. Craig Kimbrel was a great trade and obviously Chris Sale.

 

The only move that I didn't like at the time was the last deal with Sale. It still mind boggling to this day why he would extend him for 5 years with a bad arm/shoulder.

 

Yeah, it will always be a mystery. I don't understand how they could have conducted a thorough medical on Sale and pronounced him good to go. And yet he did pitch in 2019 and very well at times.

 

moonslav's theory that DD assumed Sale would need TJ surgery during the contract but was still worth it for 4 years and 145 mill (128 mill for tax purposes) does make some sense.

[Old Red]

Yeah, it will always be a mystery. I don't understand how they could have conducted a thorough medical on Sale and pronounced him good to go. And yet he did pitch in 2019 and very well at times.

 

moonslav's theory that DD assumed Sale would need TJ surgery during the contract but was still worth it for 4 years and 145 mill (128 mill for tax purposes) does make some sense.

 

Stupid assumption just like it was with Story, and I don’t think DD would do that. On the other hand Bloom knew Story had a elbow problem.

[Hugh2]

When Sale was still in Chicago it was widely speculated that he was going to need elbow surgery one day. Scouts always saw an effort in his delivery. Sale getting injured was extremely predictable.

 

They took a chance with the trade. They took a chance with the contract. They ended up going 1-2.

[Bellhorn04]

When Sale was still in Chicago it was widely speculated that he was going to need elbow surgery one day. Scouts always saw an effort in his delivery. Sale getting injured was extremely predictable.

 

They took a chance with the trade. They took a chance with the contract. They ended up going 1-2.

 

Well put.

[moonslav59]

When Sale was still in Chicago it was widely speculated that he was going to need elbow surgery one day. Scouts always saw an effort in his delivery. Sale getting injured was extremely predictable.

 

They took a chance with the trade. They took a chance with the contract. They ended up going 1-2.

 

Totally agree.

 

I do still think a healthy Sale would have been worth $145M/4 not 5, but in hindsight, it’s looking like $145/2 at best and not even vintage Sale.

[notin]

Stupid assumption just like it was with Story, and I don’t think DD would do that. On the other hand Bloom knew Story had a elbow problem.

 

The problem is - DD did do that. Sale crawled to the finish line in 2018, giving the Sox 32 IP after August 1. And did so without really even needing to extend Sale, who was already controlled for 2019.

 

And given Sale was the epitome of undervalued contracts, one would think he would hope to cash in by betting on himself and seeking a contract in the neighborhood of David Price or Zack Greinke, which a healthy Sale would have no problem getting, especially since he was younger than both of them when they signed their deals. But Sale instead leapt at the 5 year offer, very likely because he knew if the season played out, he wasn’t going to do any better. And certainly it appears as though his agent felt that way as well…

[notin]

Totally agree.

 

I do still think a healthy Sale would have been worth $145M/4 not 5, but in hindsight, it’s looking like $145/2 at best and not even vintage Sale.

 

Three years earlier, 32yo Zack Greinke signed a 6 year $206mill contract and 31yo David Price signed a 7 year $217mill contract. Sale was 29 when he signed and could have reached free agency at 30. Safe bet a healthy Sale equals or betters those deals in AAV and length of contract…

[Bellhorn04]

Three years earlier, 32yo Zack Greinke signed a 6 year $206mill contract and 31yo David Price signed a 7 year $217mill contract. Sale was 29 when he signed and could have reached free agency at 30. Safe bet a healthy Sale equals or betters those deals in AAV and length of contract…

 

No question, Sale accepted a smaller deal because he accepted that he posed a significant health risk.

[Bellhorn04]

One thing that people tend to overlook about Sale's extension, though, is that in 2019 he pitched 147.1 innings and struck out 218 batters. He had a 3.39 FIP, a 1.09 WHIP and a 5.89 K/BB.

 

(Cue the inevitable "Yeah, but you knew it was only a matter of time before..." )

[Dipre]

I've been doing a deep dive on this farm system, and I can kinda see it coming together and the vision for the long term plan. The present needs some lovin' though.

[notin]

One thing that people tend to overlook about Sale's extension, though, is that in 2019 he pitched 147.1 innings and struck out 218 batters. He had a 3.39 FIP, a 1.09 WHIP and a 5.89 K/BB.

 

(Cue the inevitable "Yeah, but you knew it was only a matter of time before..." )

 

He had some crazy stretch where he struck out 40 batters between walks, too.

 

But he did miss some time again - and was limited to 147 IP. He had a 4.40 ERA and was only worth 2.1 bWAR, down from 6.5. (I see you’re back on FIP.)

 

Think he made the right call betting against himself with that extension?

[Bellhorn04]

He had some crazy stretch where he struck out 40 batters between walks, too.

 

But he did miss some time again - and was limited to 147 IP. He had a 4.40 ERA and was only worth 2.1 bWAR, down from 6.5. (I see you’re back on FIP.)

 

Think he made the right call betting against himself with that extension?

 

Roger that.

[mvp 78]

One thing that people tend to overlook about Sale's extension, though, is that in 2019 he pitched 147.1 innings and struck out 218 batters. He had a 3.39 FIP, a 1.09 WHIP and a 5.89 K/BB.

 

(Cue the inevitable "Yeah, but you knew it was only a matter of time before..." )

 

His velo was way down. He gave up a career high HR/9. xISO of 54th percentile was down 30 percentile points from the prior year. Career high Hard Hit % (largely because of the 4 seamer 50.9%). The Run Values on his slider and FB went from -17 and -19 in 2018 to 0 and -1 in 2019.

[mvp 78]

I've been doing a deep dive on this farm system, and I can kinda see it coming together and the vision for the long term plan. The present needs some lovin' though.

 

I just don't know if the quantity is there for it all to work out. There are some interesting guys, but injuries and ineffectiveness are sure to creep in. Need more numbers to improve their chances.

[Dipre]

I just don't know if the quantity is there for it all to work out. There are some interesting guys, but injuries and ineffectiveness are sure to creep in. Need more numbers to improve their chances.

 

What I mean is, with a set plan they can continuously improve the quality and quantity of farmhands, and we know they have the money to spend at the ML level for the talent they want. I think we're in a good position for the future.

[mvp 78]

What I mean is, with a set plan they can continuously improve the quality and quantity of farmhands, and we know they have the money to spend at the ML level for the talent they want. I think we're in a good position for the future.

 

I haven't seen the plan to add to the quantity. I've seen the quality get better though.

[Dipre]

I haven't seen the plan to add to the quantity. I've seen the quality get better though.

 

They've been very active in the international markets when they have the resources to do it, and the idiocy of not dealing away expiring contracts last year not withstanding, they've made some trades that bolster MiLB depth.

[moonslav59]

I haven't seen the plan to add to the quantity. I've seen the quality get better though.

 

Well, most of the trades under Bloom have involved us getting a prospect or more, even deals like Pivetta and Ottavino and Hosmer.

 

We have not gotten great results this way, and only Wink and Wong have given us meaningful MLB production that way. It’s mostly been just adding fluff to the minor league teams, but some additions are still pending, like EValdez, Abreu, Rosier, Gambrell, and other longer shots.

 

The Whitlock addition was nice. Adding younger,cost controlled players like Dugo, Pivetta, Refsnyder, Schreiber, McGuire, Arroyo, and others has helped us keep near .500.

 

The overwhelming higher draft picks being from HS has delayed the Bloom farm infusion results, and added to the roar from the impatient fans, but it is what it is. We won’t know just how well Bloom built up the farm for a few more years.

[mvp 78]

They've been very active in the international markets when they have the resources to do it, and the idiocy of not dealing away expiring contracts last year not withstanding, they've made some trades that bolster MiLB depth.

 

The trades have mostly gone towards MiLB hitter depth rather than pitching depth.

[mvp 78]

Well, most of the trades under Bloom have involved us getting a prospect or more, even deals like Pivetta and Ottavino and Hosmer.

 

We have not gotten great results this way, and only Wink and Wong have given us meaningful MLB production that way. It’s mostly been just adding fluff to the minor league teams, but some additions are still pending, like EValdez, Abreu, Rosier, Gambrell, and other longer shots.

 

The Whitlock addition was nice. Adding younger,cost controlled players like Dugo, Pivetta, Refsnyder, Schreiber, McGuire, Arroyo, and others has helped us keep near .500.

 

The overwhelming higher draft picks being from HS has delayed the Bloom farm infusion results, and added to the roar from the impatient fans, but it is what it is. We won’t know just how well Bloom built up the farm for a few more years.

 

Yes, we can keep going back to the WELL THEY DID GET WHITLOCK well over and over, but aside from that Bloom really hasn't received much MiLB pitching talent that wasn't drafted or IFA acquired and that takes a long time to come through the system.

[Dipre]

The trades have mostly gone towards MiLB hitter depth rather than pitching depth.

 

That's their system, and I've come to understand it. Focus on their scouting strength, which seems to be hitting. There are other ways to find pitching both at the MLB and MiLB level. We haven't seen results yet, but the way their toolsy MIF/OF group looks long term, they could trade for effective MLB pitching in the near future dipping into the farm.

[mvp 78]

That's their system, and I've come to understand it. Focus on their scouting strength, which seems to be hitting. There are other ways to find pitching both at the MLB and MiLB level. We haven't seen results yet, but the way their toolsy MIF/OF group looks long term, they could trade for effective MLB pitching in the near future dipping into the farm.

 

If "that's their system" then their system doesn't have enough pitching depth!!!

[Dipre]

If "that's their system" then their system doesn't have enough pitching depth!!!

 

It certainly does not. It's an area they will have to manage.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally, I think any strategy is questionable that puts this kind of product on the field in Bloom's 3rd and 4th seasons.

 

Maybe next year will be awesome, but every year should be important. 2020 didn't bother me, but 2023 bothers me, because it's two years in a row that they really weren't a playoff-caliber team. This makes tanking look good.

[Maxbialystock]

Personally, I think any strategy is questionable that puts this kind of product on the field in Bloom's 3rd and 4th seasons.

 

Maybe next year will be awesome, but every year should be important. 2020 didn't bother me, but 2023 bothers me, because it's two years in a row that they really weren't a playoff-caliber team. This makes tanking look good.

 

So here's me with the sniveling excuses.

 

First, 2021 was a pretty good year, beating the Yankees and Rays to get to the ALCS before going down to a good Astros team, 4 games to 2.

 

Second, Bloom inherited Price and Sale, both disastrous for the pitching staff--big bucks, big success in 2018, but nothing left over for Bloom. Relatedly, another freaking big contract for a front line starter is unlikely.

 

Third, at the same time, we don't know what John Henry is insisting upon. The Sox team salaries are now ranked 15th in MLB--the lowest ranking in the JH era and probably in the last 40 years. We do know he was fine with losing Mookie and Bogey--too pricey. We do know, however, that Bloom got Dugo (higher WAR right now than Mookie) and Wong in return for Mookie.

 

Fourth, the Sox right now seem to have three decent younger starters in Bello, Houck, and Whitlock even though Whitlock missed a bunch of games via injury and now so is Houck. Maybe Crawford (age 27) will be a decent starter. Kluber of course is/was a bust. And my guess is we won't see Sale start again this season. Apparently we will see Paxton--this week, in fact.

 

Fifth, Casas and Duran have been pleasant surprises (Casas's defense notwithstanding). In fact, the outfield of Verdugo, Yoshida, Duvall, Duran, and Refsnyder can hit and field (except for Yoshida). And the infield wouldn't be half bad were it not for injuries to Story, Chang, Reyes, et al.

 

Sixth, two good young catchers in Wong (his DWAR of +1.4 is tied for best in MLB) and McGuire (one righty bat and one lefty).

 

Seventh, an almost decent bullpen with Winckowski, Martin, Bernardino, Jansen, Schreiber (now on the IL), and even Pivetta (his ERA in June is freaking 1.23).

 

Eighth, I think this team has underperformed so far this season and that it can and will do better. That's without Story or Sale or even Chang.

[notin]

Yes, we can keep going back to the WELL THEY DID GET WHITLOCK well over and over, but aside from that Bloom really hasn't received much MiLB pitching talent that wasn't drafted or IFA acquired and that takes a long time to come through the system.

 

I think that’s why the focus has been on hitters in the drafts, IFA. Build up the total prospects and deal some for pitchers…

[MADSTORK]

What I mean is, with a set plan they can continuously improve the quality and quantity of farmhands, and we know they have the money to spend at the ML level for the talent they want. I think we're in a good position for the future.

 

What planet you on?

 

Other than Mayer Yorke Jordan it’s about quality not quantity

Pitching development is non existent for a Executive who came from an organization that is known for developing pitching

The recent hype surrounding Drohan and Rogers is laughable, they cannot command the zone

Quality big leaguers traded for mid 20’s prospects to old for the level there in has quickly become an Orlando prerequisite

 

International signings are always a risk

Last years #1 pick cannot get on the field

 

Should I go on?

[Hugh2]

What planet you on?

 

Other than Mayer Yorke Jordan it’s about quality not quantity

Pitching development is non existent for a Executive who came from an organization that is known for developing pitching

The recent hype surrounding Drohan and Rogers is laughable, they cannot command the zone

Quality big leaguers traded for mid 20’s prospects to old for the level there in has quickly become an Orlando prerequisite

 

International signings are always a risk

Last years #1 pick cannot get on the field

 

Should I go on?

 

No you shouldn’t go on, you’re just making anyone reading your posts dumber.