Fire Bloom .

[Hugh2]

If either Ward or Song sticks with a big league team this year, it should be considered an utter failure by the Red Sox front office.

 

Boston was coming off a last place finish with a crappy pitching staff -- and with an oft-stated goal of developing young, affordable players from the farm system as the core of sustainable contenders.

 

To lose any legitimate young MLB arms while instead keeping recycled roster fillers simply to field a team is unacceptable.

 

Ward I can see sticking, and I think he probably does. But there's no way Song sticks, I'm not even sure he's eligible to play nor has he in what....4 years now? can he even still pitch? but regardless there's no good argument for protecting Song.....but Ward being left unprotected is baffling.

[Hugh2]

Noah Song can pitch, was discharged. Things I google post script. Surprising seeing how his exception was denied before, I think Covid screwed up a lot too.

 

Regardless, he's a guy that hasn't pitched above A ball in what will be 4 seasons this year. You don't protect that, and players like that don't get taken. It's almost a dick move by DD.

[mvp 78]

So what happens if the Phillies do put Song on the team, but at some point he really starts to struggle and they decide that's enough? Do they just return him to the Red Sox, no harm, no foul?

 

Either return him or trade him somewhere else.

[moonslav59]

@MattGelb

Last note on Noah Song for today: The Phillies have clarified to say Song was not discharged. He was transferred from active duty to selective reserves and is still serving while being permitted to play professional baseball.

 

This was a call by the Navy. Song had requested a waiver over and over but it had not been approved. It was finally approved.

 

Is someone in the Navy a big Phillies fan?

[moonslav59]

If a defending pennant winner keeps a guy all year while trying to win in October, he must be good.

 

If another last-place club -- with the worst record in the majors -- keeps a guy all year, after taking him with the first overall pick... it makes my head explode more. Especially because his new team -- also obviously rebuilding like Boston -- won a championship more recently with a presumably sharp front office.

 

My head will explode, only if TWard or Song amount to anything good.

 

I'll hold the pressure inside my brain in check, until then.

[notin]

So what happens if the Phillies do put Song on the team, but at some point he really starts to struggle and they decide that's enough? Do they just return him to the Red Sox, no harm, no foul?

 

If they do anything beyond simply trading for/buying Song, than Dombrowski is a moron.

 

If he still has faith in Song after 4 years but gives up after a couple bad innings, he’s a moron. If he keeps Song through his struggles and lets him take beatings in the bullpen that cost Philly games (either through losing his outings or making the rest of the pen work harder), then Dombrowski is a moron.

 

DD spent what $400 or $500 mill this off-season. Is he really going to keep a pitcher with 0 IP in 4 years stick on his bullpen? He has no one more capable in the entire organization?

 

DD will make a trade. Or he’s a moron…

[moonslav59]

So what happens if the Phillies do put Song on the team, but at some point he really starts to struggle and they decide that's enough? Do they just return him to the Red Sox, no harm, no foul?

 

It would be great, if they return him to us.

 

If he shows any signs of life, another team might trade for him and keep him on the 26 the rest of the season, in hopes he progresses.

[moonslav59]

If they do anything beyond simply trading for/buying Song, than Dombrowski is a moron.

 

If he still has faith in Song after 4 years but gives up after a couple bad innings, he’s a moron. If he keeps Song through his struggles and lets him take beatings in the bullpen that cost Philly games (either through losing his outings or making the rest of the pen work harder), then Dombrowski is a moron.

 

DD spent what $400 or $500 mill this off-season. Is he really going to keep a pitcher with 0 IP in 4 years stick on his bullpen? He has no one more capable in the entire organization?

 

DD will make a trade. Or he’s a moron…

 

I'm confused by what you are saying here. Maybe it's typos.

[Bellhorn04]

I think a bit too much is being made of Song's period of inactivity. He's only 25 and presumably 100% healthy.

 

Whitlock didn't pitch for 1.5 seasons because of TJ surgery and pitched brilliantly in 2021.

[moonslav59]

I think a bit too much is being made of Song's period of inactivity. He's only 25 and presumably 100% healthy.

 

Whitlock didn't pitch for 1.5 seasons because of TJ surgery and pitched brilliantly in 2021.

 

He may very likely end up being a dud, but he wasn't ranked 4th by SP's for no reason.

 

(TWard reached 8th.)

[Bellhorn04]

He may very likely end up being a dud, but he wasn't ranked 4th by SP's for no reason.

 

(TWard reached 8th.)

 

He could end up a dud, or Bloom could end up looking like an incompetent stooge for this (and Ward). There's a full range of outcomes.

[mvp 78]

I think a bit too much is being made of Song's period of inactivity. He's only 25 and presumably 100% healthy.

 

Whitlock didn't pitch for 1.5 seasons because of TJ surgery and pitched brilliantly in 2021.

 

Whitlock also had success at AA. Song hasn't even pitched in low A. Whitlock's rookie ball numbers were pretty good too (14.1 Innings, 22K, 0 BB), even better than Song's.

[mvp 78]

If I'm ranking the likelihood of scenarios:

 

1. Song gets traded to a third division team that can carry him (PIT, WSH, etc.)

2. Song sticks on the Phillies but only sees mop up duty and it's not great

3. Song gets sent back to BOS

4. Song sticks on the Phillies and is successful

[Bellhorn04]

Whitlock also had success at AA. Song hasn't even pitched in low A. Whitlock's rookie ball numbers were pretty good too (14.1 Innings, 22K, 0 BB), even better than Song's.

 

You're betting on Song's lack of experience over his talent and youth.

 

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[mvp 78]

You're betting on Song's lack of experience over his talent and youth.

 

I've got a bad feeling about this.

 

How many guys have been successful jumping straight from rookie ball to MLB regardless of time off? The list isn't big. What does his pitching even look like? We don't even know how much he has been throwing or if he's been able to work with pitching instructors for the past few years. To just shrug that off is a little bit of a mistake.

 

Noah Song had a lot of talent, but he is far from a sure bet that some people are making him out to be.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Maybe someone can clear this up for me: if the Phils or Nats decide not to keep Song or Ward, they can first put them on waivers, from where every other club can grab them... if nobody does, then they have to be offered back to Sox for half the Rule V drafting fee? If another team claims them, does this new club then have to keep them on their MLB roster all year or the whole process repeats?

[mvp 78]

Maybe someone can clear this up for me: if the Phils or Nats decide not to keep Song or Ward, they can first put them on waivers, from where every other club can grab them... if nobody does, then they have to be offered back to Sox for half the Rule V drafting fee? If another team claims them, does this new club then have to keep them on their MLB roster all year or the whole process repeats?

 

The new team has to follow the same Rule 5 restrictions.

[Bellhorn04]

How many guys have been successful jumping straight from rookie ball to MLB regardless of time off? The list isn't big. What does his pitching even look like? We don't even know how much he has been throwing or if he's been able to work with pitching instructors for the past few years. To just shrug that off is a little bit of a mistake.

 

Noah Song had a lot of talent, but he is far from a sure bet that some people are making him out to be.

 

I may have missed it, but I don't remember anyone here saying he's a sure bet.

[notin]

Maybe someone can clear this up for me: if the Phils or Nats decide not to keep Song or Ward, they can first put them on waivers, from where every other club can grab them... if nobody does, then they have to be offered back to Sox for half the Rule V drafting fee? If another team claims them, does this new club then have to keep them on their MLB roster all year or the whole process repeats?

 

 

No waivers. If the Phillies or Nats no longer want their respective pitchers, they become property of the Red Sox again.

 

Ditto the oft-forgotten Politi. You know, the only pitcher the Sox lost whose thrown more than 60 IP since 2019…

[notin]

I may have missed it, but I don't remember anyone here saying he's a sure bet.

 

But what people are saying is pitching in low A ball, taking 4 years off, and then pitching in MLB is an insane career trajectory that never happens for a reason…

[mvp 78]

But what people are saying is pitching in low A ball, taking 4 years off, and then pitching in MLB is an insane career trajectory that never happens for a reason…

 

Ah, but have you heard about his age and talent?

[notin]

Ah, but have you heard about his age and talent?

 

And also - no pitching-related injuries in the past 3 years!!

 

I remember when Trey Ball had age and talent on his side. Henry Owens, too.

 

Both of them, unlike Song, were BA Top 100 prospects…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The isn't or shouldn't be a debate about whether Song or Ward or Politi become All-Star ace starters or never make it.

 

The point is that the organization that decided to lose them just came in last place twice in the past three years -- mainly because of brutal pitching -- while continually stating a goal to build for the future. And instead, they protected guys like Braiser and Ort, not to mention others they since jettisoned like Park and Hosmer...

[notin]

The isn't or shouldn't be a debate about whether Song or Ward or Politi become All-Star ace starters or never make it.

 

The point is that the organization that decided to lose them just came in last place twice in the past three years -- mainly because of brutal pitching -- while continually stating a goal to build for the future. And instead, they protected guys like Braiser and Ort, not to mention others they since jettisoned like Park and Hosmer...

 

Not really sure how Park and Hosmer are relevant. Should the Sox have protected Song and Politi and then jettisoned them for the same transactions in which they released Park and Hosmer?

 

People are freaking out about not protecting Song. Why? He hasn’t pitched since 2019 and barely pitched then. Really that anyone selected him is the bigger surprise (and very likely the more questionable decision). I get losing Ward as a poor decision and said so repeatedly. But Song? His selection was completely unanticipated.

 

Also at some point it might be worth noting the bulk of Rule 5 selections do get returned to their original team. I would expect Ward to be gone; he might even make the opening day rotation for the Nationals. But barring trades, there’s a pretty good chance the Sox get back at least one of Song or Politi, if not both…

Edited February 23, 2023 by notin

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Not really sure how Park and Hosmer are relevant. Should the Sox have protected Song and Politi and then jettisoned them for the same transactions in which they released Park and Hosmer?

 

 

A team drafting a Rule V guy has to pay $100K to the original club. Do you honestly think any MLB org would rather pay for Park or Hosmer, or just wait until they were DFAed?

 

Or were the Red Sox intentionally leaving guys unprotected that they were hoping to make some money on?

[moonslav59]

The isn't or shouldn't be a debate about whether Song or Ward or Politi become All-Star ace starters or never make it.

 

The point is that the organization that decided to lose them just came in last place twice in the past three years -- mainly because of brutal pitching -- while continually stating a goal to build for the future. And instead, they protected guys like Braiser and Ort, not to mention others they since jettisoned like Park and Hosmer...

 

I share your opinion that Ward and Song seemed to have more promise than Brasier, Ort and Hosmer. (We replaced Park with Chang and needed a middle IF'er on the 26 and 40.)

 

I will say, there is a chance Brasier and Ort help us in 2023, where neither of these guys would. If Brasier and or Ort end up sucking and either of Ward or Song go on to do well, I'll be highly critical, too, but only time will tell.

 

I do think we made a mistake, but it's all highly speculative, at this point.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

it's all highly speculative, at this point.

 

Being high and speculating is who we are!

 

I'm high on orange juice right now, in honor of FLA ST... Boston vs. Boston pro-am (Sox prospects vs. college kids) tomorrow!

[Bellhorn04]

But what people are saying is pitching in low A ball, taking 4 years off, and then pitching in MLB is an insane career trajectory that never happens for a reason…

 

And when exactly have you seen another draftee with his circumstances? The Red Sox knew there could be a waiting period of several years when they drafted him.

[moonslav59]

Being high and speculating is who we are!

 

I'm high on orange juice right now, in honor of FLA ST... Boston vs. Boston pro-am (Sox prospects vs. college kids) tomorrow!

 

I certainly do my share of high speculations.

 

We have a local grocery chain that makes fresh squeezed OJ.

 

I'm addicted.

[moonslav59]

And when exactly have you seen another draftee with his circumstances? The Red Sox knew there could be a waiting period of several years when they drafted him.

 

...and is anyone really "freaking out" over this?