Fire Bloom .

[notin]

I think, had they extended Bogey, Bogey would be the SS in 2023 and Story at 2B. After 2023, things may have changed.

 

The biggest change would probably be not extending Devers…

[mvp 78]

@alexspeier

Jonny Miller opens question to Chaim Bloom by asking if he sees his job being on the line this year. Bloom: “Not something productive to think about, not something I control.”

 

Jonny Miller will always be the GOAT.

[Bellhorn04]

@alexspeier

Jonny Miller opens question to Chaim Bloom by asking if he sees his job being on the line this year. Bloom: “Not something productive to think about, not something I control.”

 

Jonny Miller will always be the GOAT.

 

Fair answer by Bloom though. He knows what the deal is.

[moonslav59]

Would it matter much, if Sale missed all 2023?

 

I'd say no. He's basically the only guy on the 26 that was not really Bloom's choice.

 

When you look at the 40 man roster by seniority. Sale is #1 and Devers is #2. While Devers is technically not "Bloom's choice," until the extension kicks in, this is now formly Bloom's team.

 

No excuses.

 

If a bunch of old or injury-prone players get hurt, that's on Bloom for signing or keeping them around.

 

I do see a slim chance Bloom sticks around, if we suck, but it would be a complex and convoluted position to present.

 

I'll say it again, this is Bloom's flashpoint season and will be his legacy winter.

[mvp 78]

It would matter that Bloom never found someone to replace his rotation spot in 2020, 2021, 2022 or 2023.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It would matter that Bloom never found someone to replace his rotation spot in 2020, 2021, 2022 or 2023.

 

Please clarify. Do you mean Bloom never found someone to replace Sale as the projected ace in the rotation?

 

If so, can I paraphrase that he never signed or traded for a #1 starter?

[Bellhorn04]

If so, can I paraphrase that he never signed or traded for a #1 starter?

 

That's a fact not in dispute.

[notin]

That's a fact not in dispute.

 

Did he ever do that with Tampa?

[mvp 78]

Please clarify. Do you mean Bloom never found someone to replace Sale as the projected ace in the rotation?

 

If so, can I paraphrase that he never signed or traded for a #1 starter?

 

Sure. Four years, Bloom didn't acquire anyone that really resembled a top of the rotation starter on a year to year basis. Yes, Eovaldi pitched out of his mind in 2021, but I don't think that was really to be expected. 29% of his career fWAR is just from 2021 and he first appeared in 2011.

 

If you really want to be a playoff team, you need a guy to anchor the staff. The Sox haven't had one for Bloom's full tenure. It's been 4 seasons of half measures.

[mvp 78]

Did he ever do that with Tampa?

 

He didn't call the shots in Tampa.

 

However, they had Blake Snell, Archer (the good version) and traded for Glasnow.

[moonslav59]

It would matter that Bloom never found someone to replace his rotation spot in 2020, 2021, 2022 or 2023.

 

With what money or prospects traded?

[Bellhorn04]

With what money or prospects traded?

 

Well, in a hypothetical world he could have signed Gausman (5.7 fWAR) for 110 mill instead of Story for 140 mill.

[Bellhorn04]

Rodon's contract is also just 22 mill higher than Story's.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

With what money or prospects traded?

 

Prospects don't have to be traded, nor does anyone when competing for quality free agents. Here are just a few expenditures the Sox chose this winter over signing a guy like Rodon (feel free to substitute another TOTR free agent starter from the past four winters)

 

Kluber, Turner, Duvall instead of Rodon. Sox could've platooned youngsters at DH and used it to rest regulars -- like they said was planned -- and picked up an inexpensive glove-first actual CF.

 

Or... Kluber and Jansen instead of Rodon. Sox could've made Houck or Whitlock the official closer. They still might by the end of the year if Jansen pulls a Kimbrel.

 

Or... I'll be radical here: Kluber, Arroyo, Verdugo, McGuire, Pivetta, Braiser instead of Rodon. The last five signed for a combined $17M. None are sure things -- except Pivetta -- and Verdugo is a board favorite to get traded. Nobody cares about Braiser, while neither Arroyo nor McGuire has ever played a full season.

[moonslav59]

Prospects don't have to be traded, nor does anyone when competing for quality free agents. Here are just a few expenditures the Sox chose this winter over signing a guy like Rodon (feel free to substitute another TOTR free agent starter from the past four winters)

 

Kluber, Turner, Duvall instead of Rodon. Sox could've platooned youngsters at DH and used it to rest regulars -- like they said was planned -- and picked up an inexpensive glove-first actual CF.

 

Or... Kluber and Jansen instead of Rodon. Sox could've made Houck or Whitlock the official closer. They still might by the end of the year if Jansen pulls a Kimbrel.

 

Or... I'll be radical here: Kluber, Arroyo, Verdugo, McGuire, Pivetta, Braiser instead of Rodon. The last five signed for a combined $17M. None are sure things -- except Pivetta -- and Verdugo is a board favorite to get traded. Nobody cares about Braiser, while neither Arroyo nor McGuire has ever played a full season.

 

Yes, that's what I meant by "what money?" (Instead of who?)

 

Note: No way would I have chosen Rodon to pay large and long.

Edited February 14, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, that's what I meant by "what money?" (Instead of who?)

 

Note: No way would I have chosen Rodon to pay large and long.

 

Is Rodon's 162 million really a much bigger risk than any other large and long pitcher we could acquire?

[moonslav59]

Is Rodon's 162 million really a much bigger risk than any other large and long pitcher we could acquire?

 

To me, yes.

 

He's had 2 good seasons in his whole career (age 28 & 29) and totaled 310 IP in those two seasons.

 

From 2016-2020 never under 4.04.

 

From 2017-2020 never over 121 IP and a combined 97 ERA+.

 

2017-2019 averaged 82 IP.

 

Yes, too risky for me.

 

[moonslav59]

Is Rodon's 162 million really a much bigger risk than any other large and long pitcher we could acquire?

 

But, what do I know? I thought Price was one of "those guys" you go all in on.

 

(I also liked Scherzer, the year before.)

 

I liked the Sale extension.

[Bellhorn04]

To me, yes.

 

He's had 2 good seasons in his whole career (age 28 & 29) and totaled 310 IP in those two seasons.

 

From 2016-2020 never under 4.04.

 

From 2017-2020 never over 121 IP and a combined 97 ERA+.

 

2017-2019 averaged 82 IP.

 

Yes, too risky for me.

 

 

So who's your preference to Rodon at a similar price tag, and how and when do we acquire him?

[moonslav59]

So who's your preference to Rodon at a similar price tag, and how and when do we acquire him?

 

Last winter, I did not like the FA market and suggested shorter term deals for older guys like Verlander or Scherzer.

 

This winter, I'd rather we signed Verlander at $43M x 2 than deGrom or Rodon, and I didn't like anyone else.

 

I liked Castillo, but SEA gave up a lot, then extended him near FA market value. I don't mean to beat around the bush, but I just haven't seen anyone, recently, where I said, yes, that was a good deal.

 

BTW, I thought the Price deal was an overpay, but I expected much better from him than I do from Rodon or deGrom.

 

In earlier years, there was Bauer (OMG!), Cole (OK) and Starsburg (Ugh.) In hindsight there isn't much better.

 

I'm not pissed we haven't added an ace, because I haven't seen a deal even close to my liking.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, that's what I meant by "what money?" (Instead of who?)

 

Note: No way would I have chosen Rodon to pay large and long.

 

Rodon was just an immediate example, because every time you defend Bloom by saying he doesn't have the budget for quality, I just think of all the mediocrity he keeps paying for instead.

 

To me, this is also a rebuttal to those who keep reminding fans that the Red Sox are #5 in the MLB in payroll. No fans really care where we rank, if the guys they're paying aren't very good.

 

If this is indeed Bloom's flashpoint winter, then he seems to be gambling on too many longshots -- if his job was truly on the line (which I don't think is the case; smart GMs with deliberate plans don't rely on past-their-primetimers and more rehab projects in a make-or-break year).

[moonslav59]

Rodon was just an immediate example, because every time you defend Bloom by saying he doesn't have the budget for quality, I just think of all the mediocrity he keeps paying for instead.

 

To me, this is also a rebuttal to those who keep reminding fans that the Red Sox are #5 in the MLB in payroll. No fans really care where we rank, if the guys they're paying aren't very good.

 

If this is indeed Bloom's flashpoint winter, then he seems to be gambling on too many longshots -- if his job was truly on the line (which I don't think is the case; smart GMs with deliberate plans don't rely on past-their-primetimers and more rehab projects in a make-or-break year).

 

I don't really see it as "defending Bloom," but I can see how it looks that way.

 

The guy had an incredibly tight budget, year one. Even after freeing the Sox of Betts' contract and half of Price's he was handed about $20M but had over a dozen high need slots to fill. I think you'd agree 2020 was not a year we could have added a costly ace, nor did we have prospects to trade for one.

 

2021 saw some more money to be spent, I think like $40M, but again, we needed 8-10 slots filled. Had we signed an ace, we'd have very little to spend on the other slots. We needed more than one SP'er, but I'm fine with thinking it would have been better to sign one, instead of Richards ($10M) and Perez ($6M). Add Paxton's money, too. I'm not sure Bloom was allowed to match their AAV for more years, though, but if yes, I'd agree he had a hand in making a questionable choice. Even all 3's money plus Marwin and a couple other duds, don't get us who could we have signed, longer term?

 

To me, I'm not even sure Bloom was handed a decent budget until the Story signing. It seemed like an afterthought or reactionary decision by JH. If he had that money, at the start of 2021-22's winter, who should he have signed?

 

I'm just not seeing anything that jumps out as a big miss by Bloom or any GM.

 

I've always wanted us to build the rotation from the top, but that doesn't mean just grab the best SP'er on the market each year.

 

The thing about this winter is that Bloom had a big budget. If you count Kike's summer extension, he had enough to sign an ace, if he wanted. True, it might mean no Yoshida and others, but it was his choice. Again, though, I didn't see any ace I felt was worth large and long. A large and short might have been there, like Verlander, but at his age, I can see why he passed on him.

[moonslav59]

To me, this is also a rebuttal to those who keep reminding fans that the Red Sox are #5 in the MLB in payroll. No fans really care where we rank, if the guys they're paying aren't very good.

 

Pretty much all but Sale are on Bloom, now. This is nearly a complete Bloom team. We may end up top 5 in spending, and that is why I see this season as being fully on Bloom.

 

I don't see 2020-2022 in the same light. I don't expect others to see it the way I do, nor do I think I am right and they are wrong. I just see it the way I do and say what I feel.

 

I'm optimistic about our future- something I haven't felt in a long time- even under DD. The farm looks as strong and deep as I've seen since Theo. We have some young players who recently graduated that look very promising. We have Devers forevers- something I have wanted for years.

 

I like the Yoshida signing.

 

I think we made some good deals getting Turner, Kluber, Jansen and Martin. I'm worried about Duvall's D and Mondesi's health. I'm worried about a lot more, but so are almost all teams.

 

I like our chances, this year, and I like the extended future, even more. I know many fans disagree. Let the games begin!

[notin]

Is Rodon's 162 million really a much bigger risk than any other large and long pitcher we could acquire?

 

How many pitchers who have gotten “large and long” contracts have been worth it?

 

That method of signing free agents has a better track record for derailing franchises than for winning rings…

[moonslav59]

How many pitchers who have gotten “large and long” contracts have been worth it?

 

That method of signing free agents has a better track record for derailing franchises than for winning rings…

 

Some think the Price signing was worth it, but certainly it's debatable. The Lackey signing helped in 2013, but I'm not sure you can call him an ace.

 

Of course you can't go by just one team and its history, but 3 of our 4 rings were won by trading for an ace or aces or having a homegrown ace (Lester):

 

2004: Pedro & Schilling

 

2007: Schilling & Beckett

 

2018: Sale (Porcello was not an ace, except in 2017. We also traded for Nate at the deadline, and he became our "playoff ace.")

 

I tend to agree with your point: finding an ace via free agency is an extreme gamble.

 

Of course, many WS winners have had FA aces or solid #2s.

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

How many pitchers who have gotten “large and long” contracts have been worth it?

 

That method of signing free agents has a better track record for derailing franchises than for winning rings…

 

I guess the Red Sox need to learn how to develop their own at some point.

[notin]

I guess the Red Sox need to learn how to develop their own at some point.

 

Or develop position prospects that can be traded for arms…

[Bellhorn04]

Some think the Price signing was worth it, but certainly it's debatable. The Lackey signing helped in 2013, but I'm not sure you can call him an ace.

 

We'll never know for sure, of course, but you can certainly argue that without Lackey and Price, our last title would be in 2007.

 

Hypothetically, if we did know this was true, would anyone want to undo those signings?

[Bellhorn04]

Or develop position prospects that can be traded for arms…

 

Why not go the direct route instead?

[Bellhorn04]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bloom seems to be following the Red Sox tradition of focusing on position players in the draft and IFA signings.