Fire Bloom .

[mvp 78]

Some will, but many will just blame the GM and coach for the losing- not the tight budget due to many top heavy player salaries.

 

IDK, pre-Henry days, people pointed to ownership being the primary problem of the Sox. If the purse strings are once again tightened, the fingers may point that direction again. Unlike the NBA, NHL and NBL, the MLB doesn't have a true salary cap. Henry could theoretically pay whatever he wants. It's a choice. The fans will turn on him if he's no longer Daddy Warbucks.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

They'll care (not about finances), if JH tightens the belt and we can't fill holes due to too many big contracts and can't win rings anymore. They'll just blame the coach and GM, over and over.

 

That's exactly what is happening now with Bloom, who every fan has to admit was hired because of the specific way he does business (watch, someone will argue Henry is a fan of Latin Classics).

 

And if the current plan doesn't work -- in probably less time than ownership originally committed to -- changes will be made.

[moonslav59]

IDK, pre-Henry days, people pointed to ownership being the primary problem of the Sox. If the purse strings are once again tightened, the fingers may point that direction again. Unlike the NBA, NHL and NBL, the MLB doesn't have a true salary cap. Henry could theoretically pay whatever he wants. It's a choice. The fans will turn on him if he's no longer Daddy Warbucks.

 

I think the 4 rings will outweigh much of the anger, except for younger fans.

 

Also, he won't stop being Daddy Warbucks by paying Bogey and Devers. We'll still have a top 5 budget, but we won't be able to fill all the other holes with good enough talent to win a ring, unless the farm comes through.

 

Think about it: how is re-signing Bogey and Devers a step towards improving the team? It may or may not even keep us even.

 

I'm not against extending Devers, and I think Henry will keep spending near the tax line, every year, so that's why I don't think souring on JH can ever be a logical position for fans to take- not that all fans are logical.

 

When we let Betts go, I think fans assumed we'd spend the same and replace him, somehow- perhaps by upgrading 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened, yet. The Story signing didn't come close to replacing Betts. Now, we face losing Bogey.

 

I can't see JH being "tight," this winter.

[Old Red]

I think the 4 rings will outweigh much of the anger, except for younger fans.

 

Also, he won't stop being Daddy Warbucks by paying Bogey and Devers. We'll still have a top 5 budget, but we won't be able to fill all the other holes with good enough talent to win a ring, unless the farm comes through.

 

Think about it: how is re-signing Bogey and Devers a step towards improving the team? It may or may not even keep us even.

 

I'm not against extending Devers, and I think Henry will keep spending near the tax line, every year, so that's why I don't think souring on JH can ever be a logical position for fans to take- not that all fans are logical.

 

When we let Betts go, I think fans assumed we'd spend the same and replace him, somehow- perhaps by upgrading 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened, yet. The Story signing didn't come close to replacing Betts. Now, we face losing Bogey.

 

I can't see JH being "tight," this winter.

The euphoria of winning a ring only last for so long. Winning a ring last year would not make it all right this year to have a losing record like they have.

[mvp 78]

I think the 4 rings will outweigh much of the anger, except for younger fans.

 

Also, he won't stop being Daddy Warbucks by paying Bogey and Devers. We'll still have a top 5 budget, but we won't be able to fill all the other holes with good enough talent to win a ring, unless the farm comes through.

 

Think about it: how is re-signing Bogey and Devers a step towards improving the team? It may or may not even keep us even.

 

I'm not against extending Devers, and I think Henry will keep spending near the tax line, every year, so that's why I don't think souring on JH can ever be a logical position for fans to take- not that all fans are logical.

 

When we let Betts go, I think fans assumed we'd spend the same and replace him, somehow- perhaps by upgrading 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened, yet. The Story signing didn't come close to replacing Betts. Now, we face losing Bogey.

 

I can't see JH being "tight," this winter.

 

1. How is re-signing Devers and Bogey improving the team?

2. When we let Betts go, fans assumed we'd... (upgrade) 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened yet.

 

Um, so you don't improve if you re-sign them and you don't improve if you let them go?

[moonslav59]

That's exactly what is happening now with Bloom, who every fan has to admit was hired because of the specific way he does business (watch, someone will argue Henry is a fan of Latin Classics).

 

And if the current plan doesn't work -- in probably less time than ownership originally committed to -- changes will be made.

 

They seemed to jump the gun on Ben, so there is a history that backs your point. Ben did win a ring, but those 3 last place finishes did him in. Bloom will have 2, after this year, although 2020 really should not count. The "fun" that 2021 brought us has not been enough to balance out the bad, despite the fact that we were clearly going through a rebuild on a highly restricted budget, especially before 2020 and to a large extent 2021, too.

 

I think JH heard the rumblings and watched ticket sales drop, so he gave Bloom the okay to spend on Story. JH and most fans, including myself, expected a much better season than this- maybe not a WS appearance, but much better than this. I'm sure that frustrates JH as much as us, but I do think he realizes the plan was never to win it all, this year. Almost every move, including the Story signing has been designed for 2024 or beyond.

 

Well, the non fire sale was one exception to that long term priority, but JH has to balance fan outrage over the here and now with long term success.

 

IMO, the long term looks much brighter than it did after 2019 or even before 2019, but that's is something many or even most fans could care less about. There will always be some sort of disconnect on this.

[moonslav59]

1. How is re-signing Devers and Bogey improving the team?

2. When we let Betts go, fans assumed we'd... (upgrade) 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened yet.

 

Um, so you don't improve if you re-sign them and you don't improve if you let them go?

 

I did not say we'd improve by letting them go, but if we spend the entire winter budget on re-signing and extending Bogey and Deverss, and are forced to fill the shoes of Wacha, Nate, JD, Starhm, Hill and in some ways Vaz, will we improve?

 

Keeping both and improving will requires some pretty significant added spending by JH, and that was my point. He may do it for a year or two, but I don't think he'll spend what most fans hopes he does.

[moonslav59]

The euphoria of winning a ring only last for so long. Winning a ring last year would not make it all right this year to have a losing record like they have.

 

I understand your opinion. Mine is much different.

[cp176]

By “most fans” I am referring to people not on this forum. People here are talking baseball in mid-January. While that’s normal here, it’s not normal.

 

As for Bogaerts, I have no idea what he wants. But he does least have two World Series rings to show for playing in Boston, so it’s not like it’s been a stranger to him. But he’s very likely to simply go where the money is. He didn’t hire Scott Boras to find a winning team.

 

The rumors are already swirling about the Cubs (with the Jed Hoyer connection) and the Phillies being the most likely landing spots. So we now know it won’t be either of them…

 

I agree that hiring Boras is likely about having someone in your corner who has the reputation of getting people the big bucks. It's possible that Bogaerts retained him at the same time thinking that the Sox would be in the hunt this year as well as the next few. I hope that he gets what he wants. As a fan, he has been easy to cheer for.

[Old Red]

They seemed to jump the gun on Ben, so there is a history that backs your point. Ben did win a ring, but those 3 last place finishes did him in. Bloom will have 2, after this year, although 2020 really should not count. The "fun" that 2021 brought us has not been enough to balance out the bad, despite the fact that we were clearly going through a rebuild on a highly restricted budget, especially before 2020 and to a large extent 2021, too.

 

I think JH heard the rumblings and watched ticket sales drop, so he gave Bloom the okay to spend on Story. JH and most fans, including myself, expected a much better season than this- maybe not a WS appearance, but much better than this. I'm sure that frustrates JH as much as us, but I do think he realizes the plan was never to win it all, this year. Almost every move, including the Story signing has been designed for 2024 or beyond.

 

Well, the non fire sale was one exception to that long term priority, but JH has to balance fan outrage over the here and now with long term success.

 

IMO, the long term looks much brighter than it did after 2019 or even before 2019, but that's is something many or even most fans could care less about. There will always be some sort of disconnect on this.

So signing Story wasn’t to help in 2022, or 2023, or any other move? Huh? Has anyone told you this, or is this just an opinion? So the Sox were to take two years off, and hopefully be good in 2024. WOW!

[oldtimer]

They seemed to jump the gun on Ben, so there is a history that backs your point. Ben did win a ring, but those 3 last place finishes did him in. Bloom will have 2, after this year, although 2020 really should not count. The "fun" that 2021 brought us has not been enough to balance out the bad, despite the fact that we were clearly going through a rebuild on a highly restricted budget, especially before 2020 and to a large extent 2021, too.

 

I think JH heard the rumblings and watched ticket sales drop, so he gave Bloom the okay to spend on Story. JH and most fans, including myself, expected a much better season than this- maybe not a WS appearance, but much better than this. I'm sure that frustrates JH as much as us, but I do think he realizes the plan was never to win it all, this year. Almost every move, including the Story signing has been designed for 2024 or beyond.

 

Well, the non fire sale was one exception to that long term priority, but JH has to balance fan outrage over the here and now with long term success.

 

IMO, the long term looks much brighter than it did after 2019 or even before 2019, but that's is something many or even most fans could care less about. There will always be some sort of disconnect on this.

 

Ultimately it comes down to record. We are what the record says we are and we are that way as a result of decisions made by the front office. We don't know the exact circumstances that Bloom faced when going through offseason meetings and at the trade deadline but we can guess from the lack of positive movement. There should be money for 2023 and beyond for Bloom to allocate. There will be no excuses next season. either we see a major improvement of I would guess the Bloom will be off the Red Rose (Sox).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2. When we let Betts go, fans assumed we'd... (upgrade) 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened yet.

 

Um, so you don't improve if you re-sign them and you don't improve if you let them go?

 

... not replace Mookie, but at least get another All-Star. The old Duquette/Epstein Red Sox would've probably signed Springer, who's maybe not a Hall of Famer, but at least a World Series MVP. Don't want to re-sign Cabrera, sign Renteria; he didn't work out, trade him and sign Lugo. Trade Renfroe, sign that outfielder from Japan, etc.

You can say Sox fans are spoiled and greedy, but the recent history of the franchise has bred such expectations. Just like fans in Tampa, KC, Cincy and Pittsburgh expect to lose their best players when they reach free agency.

[Old Red]

I understand your opinion. Mine is much different.

 

That is very evident.

[notin]

The euphoria of winning a ring only last for so long. Winning a ring last year would not make it all right this year to have a losing record like they have.

 

Maybe not, but it also wouldn’t make me completely forget last year, either…

[Old Red]

I think the 4 rings will outweigh much of the anger, except for younger fans.

 

Also, he won't stop being Daddy Warbucks by paying Bogey and Devers. We'll still have a top 5 budget, but we won't be able to fill all the other holes with good enough talent to win a ring, unless the farm comes through.

 

Think about it: how is re-signing Bogey and Devers a step towards improving the team? It may or may not even keep us even.

 

I'm not against extending Devers, and I think Henry will keep spending near the tax line, every year, so that's why I don't think souring on JH can ever be a logical position for fans to take- not that all fans are logical.

 

When we let Betts go, I think fans assumed we'd spend the same and replace him, somehow- perhaps by upgrading 3-4 positions. That hasn't really happened, yet. The Story signing didn't come close to replacing Betts. Now, we face losing Bogey.

 

I can't see JH being "tight," this winter.

Did not resigning Betts make the team better? Not resigning Bogey, and Raffy could make the team a lot worse. Are you going to get two players, who are as good as these two, and be able to hack it playing in Boston, and how much would that cost?

[moonslav59]

So signing Story wasn’t to help in 2022, or 2023, or any other move? Huh? Has anyone told you this, or is this just an opinion? So the Sox were to take two years off, and hopefully be good in 2024. WOW!

 

Where did I say Story wasn't going to help in 2022 or 2023? The signing did not go against improving long term was the point. No moves made went against 2024 and beyond, except the non moves at the deadline, and trading Groome, this year and A Ramires, last year, and most of all, not staying under the line.

 

All these one year deals scream "REBUILD!"

 

Also, I never said or implied they expected to suck in 2022 or 2023. I even specifically said JH allowed the Story signing because of "rumblings" to do something now. I specifically said he and fans expected much better than what we got this year (just not a ring.)

 

Please don't jump on one statement and read more into it that you clearly know I don't believe is true.

 

JH expected us to compete for the playoffs, this year. The Story signing was a big sign of that, but my point was the Story signing was also expected to help us longer term, as well, which was ultimately Bloom's top priority when signed.

 

It clearly wasn't to win it all in 2020, and even 2021. Do you doubt this to be true?

 

Do I need evidence to prove that?

[notin]

I agree that hiring Boras is likely about having someone in your corner who has the reputation of getting people the big bucks. It's possible that Bogaerts retained him at the same time thinking that the Sox would be in the hunt this year as well as the next few. I hope that he gets what he wants. As a fan, he has been easy to cheer for.

 

It’s hard to get any sort of read on whether or not the Sox plan to keep Bogaerts, or how badly they’ll try.

 

I assumed Story was “just in case”, but apparently there has been some concerns around MLB that he simply can’t play SS anymore, and since every article I found was over a year old, this certainly factored into the decision to sign him.

 

But even if Story isn’t the SS, and Bogaerts doesn’t come back, then what. Go all in on another free agent like Correa? Trade for a SS who needs a good home like Segura? Internal options like Downs, Ferguson or Koss? Find some arb-eligible player out pricing himself on his current team? (Newman?)

[Old Red]

Where did I say Story wasn't going to help in 2022 or 2023? The signing did not go against improving long term was the point. No moves made went against 2024 and beyond, except the non moves at the deadline, and trading Groome, this year and A Ramires, last year, and most of all, not staying under the line.

 

All these one year deals scream "REBUILD!"

 

Also, I never said or implied they expected to suck in 2022 or 2023. I even specifically said JH allowed the Story signing because of "rumblings" to do something now. I specifically said he and fans expected much better than what we got this year (just not a ring.)

 

Please don't jump on one statement and read more into it that you clearly know I don't believe is true.

 

JH expected us to compete for the playoffs, this year. The Story signing was a big sign of that, but my point was the Story signing was also expected to help us longer term, as well, which was ultimately Bloom's top priority when signed.

 

It clearly wasn't to win it all in 2020, and even 2021. Do you doubt this to be true?

 

Do I need evidence to prove that?

Like I have said many time what is important is the present, which at the moment is 2022, which is for all intent, and purpose is a lost season, so when the season is over we move on to 2023, which will then be important. 2024, and beyond is a long time off, and most don’t think about rebuild, cliffs, or anything else. That’s your thing, and that is right for you, but some have completely different ways to look at things, and that is right for them.

[moonslav59]

Did not resigning Betts make the team better? Not resigning Bogey, and Raffy could make the team a lot worse. Are you going to get two players, who are as good as these two, and be able to hack it playing in Boston, and how much would that cost?

 

I already answered this.

 

Will we improve, if all we can do is sign Bogey, Raffy and maybe one other significant player?

 

Unless JH opens the wallter, we will not improve by JUST signing Bogey and Devers.

 

If we plan on re-setting the tax in 2023 or 2024, how do we replace Nate, Wacha, JD and others while spending almost the whole winter spending budget on just staying even by bringing Bogey and Devers back?

 

I think I know your answer- trade the farm away.

[moonslav59]

Like I have said many time what is important is the present, which at the moment is 2022, which is for all intent, and purpose is a lost season, so when the season is over we move on to 2023, which will then be important. 2024, and beyond is a long time off, and most don’t think about rebuild, cliffs, or anything else. That’s your thing, and that is right for you, but some have completely different ways to look at things, and that is right for them.

 

I know. I don't understand why you have to keep saying, "I have said this many times" and then say it one more time. I know you are very much about the "here and now," and most people are.

 

I think owners and GMs think about more than one thing. That's just my minority opinion.

[cp176]

It’s hard to get any sort of read on whether or not the Sox plan to keep Bogaerts, or how badly they’ll try.

 

I assumed Story was “just in case”, but apparently there has been some concerns around MLB that he simply can’t play SS anymore, and since every article I found was over a year old, this certainly factored into the decision to sign him.

 

But even if Story isn’t the SS, and Bogaerts doesn’t come back, then what. Go all in on another free agent like Correa? Trade for a SS who needs a good home like Segura? Internal options like Downs, Ferguson or Koss? Find some arb-eligible player out pricing himself on his current team? (Newman?)

 

I wish that I could answer this one. We have shortstops in the system who may or may not be very good in the future. I think that this team has holes that are going to be extremely tough to fill.

[Old Red]

I already answered this.

 

Will we improve, if all we can do is sign Bogey, Raffy and maybe one other significant player?

 

Unless JH opens the wallter, we will not improve by JUST signing Bogey and Devers.

 

If we plan on re-setting the tax in 2023 or 2024, how do we replace Nate, Wacha, JD and others while spending almost the whole winter spending budget on just staying even by bringing Bogey and Devers back?

 

I think I know your answer- trade the farm away.

All of these problems have been coming for a few years now, and Bloom has done nothing to alleviate any of this. Bogey, and Raffy one way of the other should have been worked by now, but it has not. Who has said that if Red Sox just sign Bogey, or Raffy it will improve the team? Of course you are not saying the team could get a lot worse if they don’t. You keep saying we like you are part of the management team worrying about re-setting the tax at any time. How the team gets better is up to Bloom, and it sounds like to me you don’t think he can make the team better with all that has to be done. If you don’t think the team will be worse off without Bogey, and Raffy then we certainly have a big disagreement, because I think the team won’t be as good just like without Betts.

[cp176]

I know. I don't understand why you have to keep saying, "I have said this many times" and then say it one more time. I know you are very much about the "here and now," and most people are.

 

I think owners and GMs think about more than one thing. That's just my minority opinion.

 

 

I think fans think about much more than simply one thing. Personally I know my role in the big scheme of things. i'm not the owner and I'm not the GM. I have no inside track with respect to what they might be thinking. I tend to think that I'm not unusual as a fan. I do believe that injuries likely hurt us and I do believe that management felt that if healthy this group would be able to compete. We had the injuries and we did not compete. It looks to me as though we have many holes which are going to be tough to fill moving forward. I know all about small sample sizes too. i've been educated. But, I'm longingly waiting for Casas to get his next hit. I've never felt that he was a sure lock to be our next All-Star first baseman.

[Old Red]

I know. I don't understand why you have to keep saying, "I have said this many times" and then say it one more time. I know you are very much about the "here and now," and most people are.

 

I think owners and GMs think about more than one thing. That's just my minority opinion.

If Bloom is thinking like you to 2024, and beyond how come 3 years ago he wasn’t thinking about 2022, and beyond like what to do with Bogey, and Raffy situations, and all the expiring contracts? He certainly hasn’t done much of anything to alleviate the problem, and now you say the Sox have to look to 2024, and beyond. Not much Baseball sense to me.

[Old Red]

I think fans think about much more than simply one thing. Personally I know my role in the big scheme of things. i'm not the owner and I'm not the GM. I have no inside track with respect to what they might be thinking. I tend to think that I'm not unusual as a fan. I do believe that injuries likely hurt us and I do believe that management felt that if healthy this group would be able to compete. We had the injuries and we did not compete. It looks to me as though we have many holes which are going to be tough to fill moving forward. I know all about small sample sizes too. i've been educated. But, I'm longingly waiting for Casas to get his next hit. I've never felt that he was a sure lock to be our next All-Star first baseman.

 

Way to early to tell on Casas, but I don’t think he was ready for the big time. At the moment he’s making JBJ’s bat look good. Hype, and he’s had plenty does not always meet expectations.

[cp176]

Way to early to tell on Casas, but I don’t think he was ready for the big time. At the moment he’s making JBJ’s bat look good. Hype, and he’s had plenty does not always meet expectations.

 

Lars Anderson - hope not

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Geez, guys, Casas is 22. At age 21, he batted third on a team with big leaguers in an international tournament. Manager Mike Scoiscia raved about his future.

 

Casas is a huge guy with a deliberate approach in the batter's box. When Aaron Judge -- another large human -- was 22, he was still in A ball. When Judge was 25, he led the AL in home runs, but also with 208 strikeouts. He's improved since then...

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Of the 30 teams in MLB this season only 1 will be successful; the other 29 have failed. The SOX have been successful 4 times since 2004. That makes them the most successful team since the turn of the century. This is my 'glass half-full' look at the situation. Edited September 22, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[cp176]

Geez, guys, Casas is 22. At age 21, he batted third on a team with big leaguers in an international tournament. Manager Mike Scoiscia raved about his future.

 

Casas is a huge guy with a deliberate approach in the batter's box. When Aaron Judge -- another large human -- was 22, he was still in A ball. When Judge was 25, he led the AL in home runs, but also with 208 strikeouts. He's improved since then...

 

Hopefully no one is giving up on him. I would just rather talk about him as opposed to how the Red Sox might scrimp and save or spend big going forward. whatever floats your boat I guess. I hope that he succeeds but he is no sure thing regardless of how big he is or what the scouts might say.

[moonslav59]

Who has said that if Red Sox just sign Bogey, or Raffy it will improve the team? Of course you are not saying the team could get a lot worse if they don’t.

 

I did not say anyone said it.