Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

No team will pursue Adam Frazier as a potential center fielder. Frazier will continue only as an emergency replacement in center field ... and a dire emergency at that:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU202207300.shtml

 

Okay, but the question at hand was what CF'er is available for $10M or less than is a better choice than Kike.

 

I'm okay with bringing up past signings, but not someone who cannot be a FT CF'er. Just my opinion.

[harmony]

Okay, but the question at hand was what CF'er is available for $10M or less than is a better choice than Kike.

 

I'm okay with bringing up past signings, but not someone who cannot be a FT CF'er. Just my opinion.

Fair enough.

[moonslav59]

Adam Frazier isn't a bad comp, if we're talking purely about value. Their stat lines are very similar, with Kike you're going to get a little more SLG, and with Frazier, you're going to get a little bit more AVG. I'd say that when it comes to defense Kike is better, 7.3 career DWar to Fraziers 2.5, but Frazier is still a plus defender and as pointed out even provides positional versatility that Kike does too.

 

It's a good enough comp to say if Frazier can get 8 million in arbitration, that 10 million for Kike is a good deal.

 

I think most view it as a good deal. Maybe he spends all year on the D.L. and it looks bad in hindsight, but if he's healthy for even just most of the seasons, he's going to be worth a lot more than 10 million dollars.

 

My guess is he will make more than $10M/1 as a FA. BTW, here are his positional values on defense:

 

-0.4 2B (14 DRS) 4402 innings

+5.8 LF (8 DRS) in 830 innings

-0.9 RF (0 DRS) in 313 innings

-12.9 CF (0 DRS( in just 69 innings

+5.6 3B (0 DRS) just 26 innings

-197.8 (SS) just 25 innings

 

Kike:

+8.5 CF (20 DRS) in 2445 innings

-5.7 2B (17 DRS) in 1668 innings

+18 LF (15 DRS) in 603 innings

+10.7 SS (8 DRS) in 602 innings (Could he be our next SS?)

+11.9 RF (3 DRS) in 343 innings

-28.4 3B (0 DRS) in 155 innings

+17.4 1B (-1 DRS) in 89 innings

 

OPS+

Career

98 Kike

99 AF

 

2018-2022

98 Kike

99 AF

 

2019-2022

93 Kike

96 AF

 

2020-2022

96 Kike

95 AF

 

2021-2022

98 Kike & AF

 

Playoffs

.900 Kike in 194 PAs

n/a AF in 0 PAs)

[Old Red]

I sincerely think that had Duran been a capable CF'er on D and hit well enough to be slotted as our 2024 CF, something I never thought would happen, so I'm not sure why it matters, here, we'd still have signed Kike for $10M/1. We still need an OF'er and 2B/SS, and Kike plays all very well on D and is more than okay on O.

 

BTW, I have no problem with anyone not valuing some players as highly as I do, but you seem to go out of your way to show he is worth less than many others feel he is worth.

 

I wonder what the majority of Sox Nations feels about Kike.

I haven’t heard Kike’s come up much, or at all outside of here, and if I’m having a different opinion on Kike is going out of my way to say I think he is not worth the $10M then I guess I’m guilty.Of course that works both ways for the ones who are saying he is worth it. I may be in the minority on the subject on here, but it’s just an opinion both ways.

[moonslav59]

I haven’t heard Kike’s come up much, or at all outside of here, and if I’m having a different opinion on Kike is going out of my way to say I think he is not worth the $10M then I guess I’m guilty.Of course that works both ways for the ones who are saying he is worth it. I may be in the minority on the subject on here, but it’s just an opinion both ways.

 

It's more than just this time. Almost anytime someone praises him, you throw shade on him.

 

You have a right to your opinion, and I'm sure you are not the only one who doesn't like Kike as much as I do, but you just seem equally passionate as I am about his value and skillset. I don't see that on many other Sox players that people like or praise.

 

I realize our roles are reversed on other players like Vaz, and maybe you wonder why I'm always throwing shade on him. Fair enough.

 

That's part of what makes this place interesting.

[Hugh2]

I haven’t heard Kike’s come up much, or at all outside of here, and if I’m having a different opinion on Kike is going out of my way to say I think he is not worth the $10M then I guess I’m guilty.Of course that works both ways for the ones who are saying he is worth it. I may be in the minority on the subject on here, but it’s just an opinion both ways.

 

Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions, but some may be more realistic than others. You may have the opinion that $10 million is too much for Kike, and others have the opinion that he is worth that. Again, we are all entitled to our opinions, but the facts and the statistics that show what players of his caliber typically get seem to support one opinion over another, and that's reality....opinions aside.

 

It could be in my opinion that paying $25,000 for a brand new Honda Accord Ex is an overpay, but the data would prove my opinion is not shared by many others at all.

 

$10 million for Kike is a good deal.

[moonslav59]

Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions, but some may be more realistic than others. You may have the opinion that $10 million is too much for Kike, and others have the opinion that he is worth that. Again, we are all entitled to our opinions, but the facts and the statistics that show what players of his caliber typically get seem to support one opinion over another, and that's reality....opinions aside.

 

It could be in my opinion that paying $25,000 for a brand new Honda Accord Ex is an overpay, but the data would prove my opinion is not shared by many others at all.

 

$10 million for Kike is a good deal.

 

I'd just like a name of someone we can get for next year for less than $10M, and who is as good or better than Kike.

 

I'll be driving his bandwagon, too.

[harmony]

Okay, but the question at hand was what CF'er is available for $10M or less than is a better choice than Kike.

 

I'm okay with bringing up past signings, but not someone who cannot be a FT CF'er. Just my opinion.

Throwing another name out there: Cody Bellinger if the Los Angeles Dodgers non-tender the 27-year-old as speculated.

 

Bellinger, who this season has a $17 million salary in the second-to-last year of team control, has 16 Defensive Runs Saves over 2820.2 career innings in center field. The 2019 NL MVP has posted 1.3 fWAR in 131 games this season despite a woeful 78 wRC+.

 

What contract could Bellinger land as a free agent?

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-bellinger-tolls-for-the-2019-nl-mvp/

Edited September 21, 2022 by harmony

[Old Red]

It's more than just this time. Almost anytime someone praises him, you throw shade on him.

 

You have a right to your opinion, and I'm sure you are not the only one who doesn't like Kike as much as I do, but you just seem equally passionate as I am about his value and skillset. I don't see that on many other Sox players that people like or praise.

 

I realize our roles are reversed on other players like Vaz, and maybe you wonder why I'm always throwing shade on him. Fair enough.

 

That's part of what makes this place interesting.

I think you go to deep in my value of Kike. You know I like Bogey, but if the Sox announced today that they had signed him to a 6/$180M contract I would say that is to high, and he’s not worth that much money. I call it as I see it, and not how much I like a player, or not. I have said Kike is a good defensive CF more than once, and said he is good at other positions, so I wouldn’t say that is exactly throwing shade on him.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Throwing another name out there: Cody Bellinger if the Los Angeles Dodgers non-tender the 27-year-old as speculated.

 

Bellinger, who this season has a $17 million salary in the second-to-last year of team control, has 16 Defensive Runs Saves over 2820.2 career innings in center field. The 2019 NL MVP has posted 1.3 fWAR in 131 games this season despite a woeful 78 wRC+.

 

What contract could Bellinger land as a free agent?

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-bellinger-tolls-for-the-2019-nl-mvp/

 

I'm looking for someone we could sign, this winter.

 

Are you saying he won't be offered arb and may be a FA?

[harmony]

I'm looking for someone we could sign, this winter.

 

Are you saying he won't be offered arb and may be a FA?

Speculation is that the Dodgers might non-tender Cody Bellinger:

 

https://dodgersnation.com/would-dodgers-really-non-tender-cody-bellinger-insider-discusses-possibility-las-plans-for-belli/2021/09/18/

 

https://cubbiescrib.com/2022/08/24/cubs-keep-close-eye-non-tender-candidate-cody-bellinger/

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/17/lack-of-alternatives-leaves-mets-with-pivotal-brandon-nimmo-decision/

[notin]

Still the same point that to me there just has to be someone out there who is better than Kike that you could get for $10M, or less. If not then MLB is in bad shape.

 

Or you are not grasping MLB’s salary scale. $10mil doesn’t get to what it got you in 2005. Last year a one year $10mill contract got you Corey Knebel, a frequently injured closer with 3 saves and 38 IP total in the 3 previous seasons…

[notin]

Speculation is that the Dodgers might non-tender Cody Bellinger:

 

https://dodgersnation.com/would-dodgers-really-non-tender-cody-bellinger-insider-discusses-possibility-las-plans-for-belli/2021/09/18/

 

https://cubbiescrib.com/2022/08/24/cubs-keep-close-eye-non-tender-candidate-cody-bellinger/

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/17/lack-of-alternatives-leaves-mets-with-pivotal-brandon-nimmo-decision/

 

Also on this board multiple times by Notin…

[notin]

Throwing another name out there: Cody Bellinger if the Los Angeles Dodgers non-tender the 27-year-old as speculated.

 

Bellinger, who this season has a $17 million salary in the second-to-last year of team control, has 16 Defensive Runs Saves over 2820.2 career innings in center field. The 2019 NL MVP has posted 1.3 fWAR in 131 games this season despite a woeful 78 wRC+.

 

What contract could Bellinger land as a free agent?

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-bellinger-tolls-for-the-2019-nl-mvp/

 

 

Given his last 3 years, probably a one year $10mill deal…

[mvp 78]

I'm looking for someone we could sign, this winter.

 

Are you saying he won't be offered arb and may be a FA?

 

According to Statcast, his swing would die in Fenway even more than it already has.

 

Bellinger is a really unique case. It's really hard to say what his market is. He has the ceiling of an MVP player, but if someone told me he was retired by age 30, I wouldn't be surprised either.

[Old Red]

Sam Kennedy met with Bogey recently, and talked up Bogey on what kind of leader he is, and what he means to the organization, and Bloom recently has talked about the same thing. Do you think this is all PR to get ahead of things if things don’t workout on resigning Bogey? The actions, and so called contract offer before the season speaks louder than the recent talking up of Bogey?

[Bellhorn04]

Sam Kennedy met with Bogey recently, and talked up Bogey on what kind of leader he is, and what he means to the organization, and Bloom recently has talked about the same thing. Do you think this is all PR to get ahead of things if things don’t workout on resigning Bogey? The actions, and so called contract offer before the season speaks louder than the recent talking up of Bogey?

 

The next contract offer will be the one that matters.

[Old Red]

The next contract offer will be the one that matters.

 

Agree, but what’s the hold up, and the same with Raffy. Both of these should have been decided already. Think the Yankees now wish they would have signed Judge sooner. The longer you wait the more you pay.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Old Red

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Sam Kennedy met with Bogey recently, and talked up Bogey on what kind of leader he is, and what he means to the organization, and Bloom recently has talked about the same thing. Do you think this is all PR to get ahead of things if things don’t workout on resigning Bogey? The actions, and so called contract offer before the season speaks louder than the recent talking up of Bogey?

 

Sammy didn't sound too encouraging recently when he reminded the Nation that the Red Sox shortstop is already under contract for the next three years, and only Xander can decide where he'll be.

[moonslav59]

Sam Kennedy met with Bogey recently, and talked up Bogey on what kind of leader he is, and what he means to the organization, and Bloom recently has talked about the same thing. Do you think this is all PR to get ahead of things if things don’t workout on resigning Bogey? The actions, and so called contract offer before the season speaks louder than the recent talking up of Bogey?

 

They don't usually talk up a guy they are about to low-ball, again.

 

Who knows, maybe they offer him $1M more than Story ($141M/6) and let him decide.

 

Some fans might be pissed, even if we offer him $200M/8, and he walks.

[Hugh2]

Agree, but what’s the hold up, and the same with Raffy. Both of these should have been decided already. Think the Yankees now wish they would have signed Judge sooner. The longer you wait the more you pay.

 

That's the point, which is why guys go to FA, it takes two to tango. Sox can't just magically sign whoever they want.

[Old Red]

That's the point, which is why guys go to FA, it takes two to tango. Sox can't just magically sign whoever they want.

 

It seems Atlanta doesn’t have any problems.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

It seems Atlanta doesn’t have any problems.

 

Except for the best, imho, LH hitter in MLB Freddy Freeman.

[Old Red]

They don't usually talk up a guy they are about to low-ball, again.

 

Who knows, maybe they offer him $1M more than Story ($141M/6) and let him decide.

 

Some fans might be pissed, even if we offer him $200M/8, and he walks.

$1M more than Story? You think that’s all he’s worth more to the organization? A 2 time champion in BOSTON just to name one, and a big one at that.

[moonslav59]

It seems Atlanta doesn’t have any problems.

 

They lost Freeman, but I like your point. Maybe we need to start signing guys way earlier, like maybe start with Whitlock, err... wait...

[Old Red]

Except for the best, imho, LH hitter in MLB Freddy Freeman.

 

When all came out it seems like there was some missed communication with the agent.

[Old Red]

They lost Freeman, but I like your point. Maybe we need to start signing guys way earlier, like maybe start with Whitlock, err... wait...

 

I wouldn’t put Whitlock in the same class as Bogey, and Raffy.

[moonslav59]

$1M more than Story? You think that’s all he’s worth more to the organization? A 2 time champion in BOSTON just to name one, and a big one at that.

 

I've already stated I'd go $150M/6 and maybe a little more like a 7th year option for $20M with a $6M buyout, essentially making it a $156M/6 or $170M/7 deal.

 

I don't think we can pay much more and still improve the team. I don't think $150M/6 is that far from the offer you thought would be an overpay.

 

What's the most you might suggest we offer? (Mine is $156M/6 tops.)

[Bellhorn04]

I've already stated I'd go $150M/6 and maybe a little more like a 7th year option for $20M with a $6M buyout, essentially making it a $156M/6 or $170M/7 deal.

 

I don't think we can pay much more and still improve the team. I don't think $150M/6 is that far from the offer you thought would be an overpay.

 

What's the most you might suggest we offer? (Mine is $156M/6 tops.)

 

Yeah, 6 for around 155 or 160 sounds right to me. Can't really go any higher than that.

[Old Red]

I've already stated I'd go $150M/6 and maybe a little more like a 7th year option for $20M with a $6M buyout, essentially making it a $156M/6 or $170M/7 deal.

 

I don't think we can pay much more and still improve the team. I don't think $150M/6 is that far from the offer you thought would be an overpay.

 

What's the most you might suggest we offer? (Mine is $156M/6 tops.)

I have said all along $165M/6 starting at $25M, and increasing each year to $30M.