Fire Bloom .

[Old Red]

I think the basher argument would go something like this: it's his fault that the team was in last place at the deadline. They still had a chance to make the playoffs, though, because of the third Wild Card. But he put the final nails in the coffin by trading Vazquez and not getting any pitching help. The team was confused and depressed by this, so the attitude was hurt as well.

Bashers VS The Jocks. It’s amazing that Bloom got so much credit, for 2021, but to the Jocks shouldn’t get the same amount of blame for 2022. Are you in the clubhouse to know what goes on in there? You obviously don’t think team morale means anything at all, and I guess Bloom doesn’t either starting off the season with lowball contract offers to your two best players, and watch the team start out 10-19, and pretty much downhill from there except for the fantasy month of June that the Jocks bought into, and were saying 1 game at a time.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Bingo! I would add that whatever he did in 21 was nullified by his deconstruction of the team at the end of 21 season. Moreover his lack of foresight by not getting below the lux tax needlessly complicates any rebuilding efforts in 23 and beyond.

 

As it turned out, Bloom should not have deconstructed Martin Perez and Renfroe. The Schwarber case is more complicated. Iggys, not so much.

 

Deconstructing Richards, Ottavino, Marwin, Santana, Andriese and others is not something I hear Bloom bashers mentioning. The non-deconstructing of Shaw & Robbles could be viewed as a mistake.

 

So, we should have kept Renfroe and Perez, even though not a single poster advocated bringing Perez back. Schwarber being iffy.

 

In their places, Bloom added failures JBJ and Diekman, so-so's in Story, Hill and Strahm, and net plus additions in Wacha, Schreiber, Refsnyder.

 

I may be in the minority, but I don't see the net changes made to the 2021 roster as being negative. I also don't view the deadline moves as being a net negative to 2022.

 

I see the near total decline by returning vets as the main reason for the team's decline. Blame bloom for not foreseeing this makes more sense, to me, than blaming him for the overall changes made from 2021 to 2022. I won't speak of injuries, because that's just "making excuses."

 

Bloom has gotten a lot of grief for trading Vaz and his $2.5M remaining on his contract. I shutter to think about all the grief he'd have gotten by trading Nate and JD, or gotten Bogey to agree to waive his n-trade clause.

[Old Red]

To each their own, but I think going over the tax line this year was a signal that Henry is still willing to spend. Call it PR if you want.

 

And yes, Bloom could have gotten back under by trading JD, Eovaldi etc., but that's not the message they wanted to send. They're trying to stick to the plan of competing while rebuilding.

 

When the competing part fails but you're over the tax line, you look bad and maybe even stupid, there's no way around it.

You keep saying this team is rebuilding. Rebuilding from what? Bloom has had 3 years to work on all theses expiring contracts for example, and just sat there, and did nothing, so what is the big rebuild that’s supposed to be going on that the Jocks talk about?

Edited August 23, 2022 by Old Red

[Old Red]

As it turned out, Bloom should not have deconstructed Martin Perez and Renfroe. The Schwarber case is more complicated. Iggys, not so much.

 

Deconstructing Richards, Ottavino, Marwin, Santana, Andriese and others is not something I hear Bloom bashers mentioning. The non-deconstructing of Shaw & Robbles could be viewed as a mistake.

 

So, we should have kept Renfroe and Perez, even though not a single poster advocated bringing Perez back. Schwarber being iffy.

 

In their places, Bloom added failures JBJ and Diekman, so-so's in Story, Hill and Strahm, and net plus additions in Wacha, Schreiber, Refsnyder.

 

I may be in the minority, but I don't see the net changes made to the 2021 roster as being negative. I also don't view the deadline moves as being a net negative to 2022.

 

I see the near total decline by returning vets as the main reason for the team's decline. Blame bloom for not foreseeing this makes more sense, to me, than blaming him for the overall changes made from 2021 to 2022. I won't speak of injuries, because that's just "making excuses."

 

Bloom has gotten a lot of grief for trading Vaz and his $2.5M remaining on his contract. I shutter to think about all the grief he'd have gotten by trading Nate and JD, or gotten Bogey to agree to waive his n-trade clause.

It all depends what you mean by the minority? On here no, but out in Red Sox Nation you are in the minority in a lot of things. Taking away a 96 RBI man from your lineup would be considered a negative by most knowledgeable baseball people. I don’t blame Bloom 1 bit for not seeing the decline in the main players, and I don’t think anyone would have seen that either. You keep trading Vaz up all you want, but sitting on his ass for two months longer than he should have, and not addressing the most pressing needs at the time like 1B, and the OF was more of a problem. Trading Vaz was just the finishing touch, and yes a CLUTCH bat was taken out of the lineup if nothing else. I’m glad you think the team is better using backup C.

[Hugh2]

Bashers VS The Jocks. It’s amazing that Bloom got so much credit, for 2021, but to the Jocks shouldn’t get the same amount of blame for 2022. Are you in the clubhouse to know what goes on in there? You obviously don’t think team morale means anything at all, and I guess Bloom doesn’t either starting off the season with lowball contract offers to your two best players, and watch the team start out 10-19, and pretty much downhill from there except for the fantasy month of June that the Jocks bought into, and we’re say 1 game at a time.

 

I can't argue against failing to resign stars, but you can't fault someone for a "low ball" offer. If Pedroia never resigned with the Sox it would have been a low ball offer, if Bogaerts never took his first extension it would have been a low ball offer, Whitlock might have been lowballed in hindsight if he develops the way we hope.

 

No one starts off a negotiation by putting their best deal on the table. I don't know much about running a baseball team and signing players, but I am a president of a company and I get involved in negotiating all the time. You offer ABC, they offer XYZ and you work towards finding something in the middle.

 

I don't buy the whole "oh this offer was insulting" no....that's not how it works. The proper protocol is to counter with an offer. That's how negotiations work.

 

Now, this is just conjecture, but I'd be willing to bet we didn't hear about Boras and company coming back and asking for 320/10 for Bogaerts. If that was the case the Sox did the right thing by saying "lets talk later" when he gets nowhere close to that the Sox could come back in and start negotiating something more reasonable. Maybe that's not how it always works out, maybe he signs somewhere else, but that's how negotiating works. If we did that with Mookie and Bogaerts by now we'd still have Mookie on this team but probably no Kike, no story, no Eovaldi, no Pham, and no Renfroe, because the Sox aren't going to have a 290 million dollar payroll and that would be before locking Devers up. So think of all the holes on this team coming up over the next couple years getting filled by who? Seabold and Wong?

 

See, that's the thing you guys never think of. You can't have the same team as is and just add in the players you want to keep without stepping back and saying hmmmmm the Sox probably aren't going to have a 290-300 million dollar payroll. Yeah, we want stars but do you want Josh Winckoski in your rotation, Juran Duran, and Franchy Cordero in your outfield? If Story isn't signed and Arroyo played full time and got hurt Jeter Downs is your 2nd baseman. You have to build a 25 man roster. One guy, no matter how good is never going to bring you a world series. Yes, it's frustrating to sign your stars and it would be a disaster to let all of Betts, Bogaerts, and Devers walk but a Good G.M. (whether or not Bloom is one is irrelevant to the point) looks at the big picture.

 

The Angels have had the two best players in baseball and how has that worked out for them?

[Bellhorn04]

You keep saying this team is rebuilding. Rebuilding from what? Bloom has had 3 years to work on all theses expiring contracts for exam, and just sat there, and did nothing, so what is the big rebuild that’s supposed to be going on that the Jocks talk about?

 

Do we have to say the same things over and over? The farm is significantly improved and a lot of payroll room has been cleared for next year.

 

As for the expiring contracts, you keep saying Bloom did nothing about them. What was he supposed to do about JD's and Eovaldi's contracts, for example?

[Old Red]

Bloom-bashers will say that's all nice, but we're still 60-62, and last in the division.

 

In a Red Sox Nationwide poll who do you think would win out. The Jocks, or the Bashers? I’m betting on the Bad Bad Bashers.

[Old Red]

Do we have to say the same things over and over? The farm is significantly improved and a lot of payroll room has been cleared for next year.

 

As for the expiring contracts, you keep saying Bloom did nothing about them. What was he supposed to do about JD's and Eovaldi's contracts, for example?

So when you talk about rebuild you are mainly talking the farm ranking, and the expiring contracts running out? Wow that’s quite a plan to just let the contracts run out, and get nothing back in return. Do you think Bloom could have gotten more for JD coming off a 99 RBI season last off season, or a slumping JD at the trading DL this season? If the plan was to extend Bogey, or Raffy fine, but if not to me Bogey should have been traded before his no trade kicked in, and Raffy would have been gone to. Betts was traded 1 year to late to get a better return back. Yes the Nation would have gone nuts, but they did with Mookie, and will if Bogey, and Raffy leave too, and nothing in return. Do I have to say the same thing over, and over that all fans do not give a dam about the farm rankings.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

And that's 100% false. Nobody has complained more about the Bradley trade than moon, for example.

 

I also hated the Diekman signing from day one and argued for pages and pages why I felt it seemed strange he gave him a rare 2 year contract, as small as it was.

 

I also think some Bloom bashers confuse us trying to give justifications for certain moves as trying to claim the moves weren't failures.

 

I happen to think Bloom's pre-season plan to use Dalbec and Shaw at 1B with ML ready top prospect, Casas, waiting in the wings was a pretty solid plan. Then, add the context that the budget was too tight to add players willie-nillie here and there just for depth, and I think most, if not all GMs would not have touched 1B. Casas got hurt in late May, so the argument that Bloom waited 100 games too long to make an addition at 1B is, at worst, and exaggeration. Trading for anyone in late May to mid July is a very difficult thing to do, but I do think it is fair to raise the point as criticism. For all we know, maybe Bloom did try.

 

All this being said, the 1B plan turned into a total failure, and Bloom is partially responsible for not expecting Dalbec to fail and Casas to get hurt. Even though neither were "Bloom guys," he could have made changes by trading Dalbec.

 

I scratched my head at the Story signing, and it seemed to me to be a late off season reactive move to quiet and placate squirmish fans. I questioned the plan to use the superior defensive SS at 2B, which was also a criticism of Bloom and Cora, and was roundly bashed for doing so. I also wondered about the pressure acquiring Story would put on Bogey- forcing him to say "I am the SS," and getting some grief for not doing what was best for the team. The same posters bashing Bloom for trading Vaz and hurting team morale lambasted me for suggesting that the Story signing might have hurt team morale, and certainly brought to the forefront that the Story signing and low-ball offer to Bogey all but sealed Bogey's fate as not being in the Sox long-term plans.

 

I criticized the Houck piggy-back idea. I criticized not using Houck as a closer.

 

When these Bloom bashers talk about blind Bloom loyalists, I often think they are talking about me and others, but I do not think I am even close to thinking even 75% of Bloom's moves were good. The main reason I appear to be such a strong Bloom defender is more out of a need to counter bashing that goes too far, neglects key elements of the move or are just plain wrong.

 

Certainly many of Bloom's moves have failed. All Gms have plenty of failures, and when you are forced to add players at low to moderate salaries, the chances of failures increase. I will say, I expected more of Bloom's bargain basement moves to work, but quite a few have, and the jury is still out on a good chunk of his moves that involved promising prospects.

 

[moonslav59]

Do we have to say the same things over and over? The farm is significantly improved and a lot of payroll room has been cleared for next year.

 

As for the expiring contracts, you keep saying Bloom did nothing about them. What was he supposed to do about JD's and Eovaldi's contracts, for example?

 

Trade them, and then hear all the wrath from these same posters.

 

The evidence clearly shows how much all the Bloom bashers loved the Betts, beni and Vaz trades, right?

[Old Red]

The T Shirts are being printed as we speak.

 

BLOOM BASHERS VS THE BLOOM’s (JOCK) SUPPORTERS

 

Priceless!

[Old Red]

How about this one?

 

I’m A Bloom Basher, And Proud OF It

 

I’m a Bloom Jock, and Proud OF It?

[Bellhorn04]

The T Shirts are being printed as we speak.

 

BLOOM BASHERS VS THE BLOOM’s (JOCK) SUPPORTERS

 

Priceless!

 

How 'bout Airheads on the Airwaves?

[moonslav59]

How 'bout Airheads on the Airwaves?

 

How about those in the middle?

 

Also, I thought a certain poster had great disdain for name-calling.

[Bellhorn04]

Do I have to say the same thing over, and over that all fans do not give a dam about the farm rankings.

 

Sure, you can keep saying it, and I'll keep not believing it. I think a lot of fans are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

[moonslav59]

Sure, you can keep saying it, and I'll keep not believing it. I think a lot of fans are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

 

I thought part of "agreeing to disagree" meant not continuing to repeat things over and over, perhaps in hopes of convincing someone to change their views.

 

Plus, I hope GMs don't primarily use fan polls and their top interests or wishes to make decisions.

[Hugh2]

How about those in the middle?

 

Also, I thought a certain poster had great disdain for name-calling.

 

If you don't completely hate Bloom and want him fired it doesn't mean you support every move and think he's an amazing GM either.

 

Only Sith deals in absolutes.

[Hugh2]

The Bloom haters effectively want the 2019 Red Sox. Shouldn't have traded Benintendi, Betts. That team was stacked, Bogaerts, Betts, Devers, Vaz, Benintendi, and had two cy young winners plus Chris Sale. They still finished 3rd with only 84 wins. Won the world series the year before. Similar to this team....sometimes it just ain't your year.

[JDavis76]

One big negative I see with hang 'em chaim was that if he was going to trade vaz then he should have moved jd and eo as well. And if he's not going to pony up to sign xbo long term, he should have moved him too.

 

The halfway approach just makes him look like he doesn't really have a plan.

[Old Red]

Sure, you can keep saying it, and I'll keep not believing it. I think a lot of fans are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

 

Has nothing to do with not being intelligent. So are you saying you have to be intelligent to care about farm system?

[dgalehouse]

Saying " Bloom hater " or Bloom basher" is meaningless name calling. The Red Sox finished in the cellar in 2020. After some improvement last year, the Sox are back in the cellar again. Too many mistakes have been made. We expect better than that.

[Old Red]

The Bloom haters effectively want the 2019 Red Sox. Shouldn't have traded Benintendi, Betts. That team was stacked, Bogaerts, Betts, Devers, Vaz, Benintendi, and had two cy young winners plus Chris Sale. They still finished 3rd with only 84 wins. Won the world series the year before. Similar to this team....sometimes it just ain't your year.

 

There we go with that Hate word again. There is not a day that goes by with someone having to use it.

[Old Red]

How 'bout Airheads on the Airwaves?

 

Are you trying to Piggyback on my idea?

[Bellhorn04]

Has nothing to do with not being intelligent. So are you saying you have to be intelligent to care about farm system?

 

I think it's very stupid to have no interest in the farm at all.

[Bellhorn04]

Saying " Bloom hater " or Bloom basher" is meaningless name calling.

 

So is Jock Supporter.

[Bellhorn04]

There we go with that Hate word again. There is not a day that goes by with someone having to use it.

 

So what? It means the same as basher.

[Hugh2]

There we go with that Hate word again. There is not a day that goes by with someone having to use it.

 

Hater is not the same as hate. It’s a slang word that probably equates more to a basher, which is many are. And that’s fine, like you say all are entitled to their opinion. Embrace it

[moonslav59]

If you don't completely hate Bloom and want him fired it doesn't mean you support every move and think he's an amazing GM either.

 

I think most posters and maybe fans think somewhere in the middle.

 

I don't know a single poster who claims Bloom has done no wrong or even that he has done almost everything right. It's a strawman construction.

 

It does seem like the Bloom bashers rarely mention any of the good moves, but it does happen from time to time, so my guess is none of them think he's 100% wrong, so we are talking about varying degrees in the middle.

 

I also think many posters have various rubrics for evaluating the GM, so that adds to the wild disparities in evaluation opinions. Nobody is right or wrong, but recognizing the disparities in the evaluation criteria might go a long way towards at least having an understanding of those who disagree, and not jump to the conclusion that they are ignoring facts, like we are in last place, or that the 1B plan failed.

 

Some fans could care less about the farm, some just a little, and some much more than others, but GMs know farms are important pieces in having a consistently winning team, and that it takes time to first build a strong farm, and then longer to start seeing the results- not just in adding low cost players to the roster and budget, but also to use in trades to fill more immediate needs on the big club.

 

Some fans look at the current record and little else. There is nothing wrong with that, but IMO, one should look at the context of how the team got to this record, when trying to assign blame. How many of the underperforming players were acquired by the current GM. Was it reasonable to expect him to rid the team of certain players that did not meet expectations? Were the plans made at certain position that failed reasonable at the start of the season, and could changes have been reasonably expected to be made mid-season? How much was the spending budget a factor? For example, I keep hearing, "Bloom has had 3 years to rebuild...," but do we really count 2020, when he was forced to make massive cuts to the budget? Should Bloom really have been expected to create a winning team by 2021, based on his winter spending budget or about $40M and the fact that he had a bout 8-10 significant slots to fill on the 26 and a pretty weak rest of the 40 man roster to try and improve? Should one consider the fact that the 2021 team did better than expected, and that now is being used against him, because we failed to improve on 2021's record? I'm not using injuries as an excuse, but can one expect adjustments on expectations placed on a GM with a very tight spending budget until late March 2022?

 

I know some will view this as just making excuses or being an overt Bloom apologist, but I do think these are all fair questions and aspects to consider when giving Bloom a falling grade or advocating giving him his walking papers.

 

Bloom deserves a lot of criticism for many moves and non moves, but context is needed, including the likely high priority he was given to rebuild the farm, first and foremost.

[moonslav59]

Saying " Bloom hater " or Bloom basher" is meaningless name calling. The Red Sox finished in the cellar in 2020. After some improvement last year, the Sox are back in the cellar again. Too many mistakes have been made. We expect better than that.

 

Should I say "The Bloom made too many mistake gentlemen," instead of Bloom bashers?

 

I think Bloom bashers is accurate. It's what they do, almost non stop and almost without any qualifications or side notes about some of the good moves and things done.

[moonslav59]

So is Jock Supporter.

 

feigning impartiality.