trade deadline

[jacksonianmarch]

I did.

 

They sold off some good young talent for a pipe dream. Don't let jacko convince you the prospects they gave up were duplicates or blocked values.

 

The Yanks may make the playoffs, so that could be considered "worth it," especially if the players they got make a big difference, as they have in the first week of 9, but they will be worse in the long run for making these moves, and I'm still thrilled by that thought.

 

Don’t let me sell people on the truth? None of the players dealt were the top prospects at the position in the system. Not a one

[notin]

Don’t let me sell people on the truth? None of the players dealt were the top prospects at the position in the system. Not a one

 

A few of them were low A ballers with promise, and varying ranks. Alcantara, for example, was #10 in their system on MLB.com (I think), but #7 on Fangraphs. Prospect- ranking is all very subjective anyway...

[a700hitter]

Don’t let me sell people on the truth? None of the players dealt were the top prospects at the position in the system. Not a one

Nevermind, Bloom couldn’t compete with that.

[jacksonianmarch]

A few of them were low A ballers with promise, and varying ranks. Alcantara, for example, was #10 in their system on MLB.com (I think), but #7 on Fangraphs. Prospect- ranking is all very subjective anyway...

 

They definitely gave up prospect capital, of course. But look at who they gave up.

 

Smith SS- Peraza is ranked higher

Duran and Hauver 2B- Volpe is ranked higher

Alcantara OF- Dominguez is ranked higher

Otto and Vizcaino RHP- Gil and many others ranked higher

 

You can’t keep all the prospects, especially guys like Duran, Viz and Otto who would have been Rule V guys this offseason. I didn’t want the yanks to deal the top of their prospect pool and they didn’t. Cashman did a fine job

[a700hitter]

They definitely gave up prospect capital, of course. But look at who they gave up.

 

Smith SS- Peraza is ranked higher

Duran and Hauver 2B- Volpe is ranked higher

Alcantara OF- Dominguez is ranked higher

Otto and Vizcaino RHP- Gil and many others ranked higher

 

You can’t keep all the prospects, especially guys like Duran, Viz and Otto who would have been Rule V guys this offseason. I didn’t want the yanks to deal the top of their prospect pool and they didn’t. Cashman did a fine job

He usually does. Bloom is still on probation, but he fumbled big time at this deadline.

[jacksonianmarch]

One thing we didn’t add was a reliever and with Chapman going down today, not sure if that won’t bite us

[notin]

Nevermind, Bloom couldn’t compete with that.

 

Rizzo is the one guy I was disappointed that Bloom did not get. Hard to equate what players from the Sox farm.

 

The Fangraphs Future Value system at least gives me a way to compare, but even it has flaws. But let's use it.

 

Alcatara (FV: 50) and Vizcaino (FV: 45)gave the Cubs a decent return on Rizzo. From the Sox system ,in oprder to give them two prospects with a FV total of 95, we would need to include a one FV: 50 prospect and one FV 45 or 45+ (really a 45+ to "top" the Yankee offer).

 

Before the season, the Sox had two prospects with FV of 50 - Casas and Downs. Downs has not made hiself look like a good trade piece so far this year, so it looks like we would need to include Casas.

 

For the FV 45+: Mata and Jimenez. Has to be Jimenez, as Mata is out with TJ.

 

For the FV: 45 - Noah Song, Tanner Houck, Jarren Duran, Connor Seabold, Bobby Dalbec (it's a preseason ranking)

 

Realisitcally Duran has probably aded value and Downs has lost value.

 

The Cuba also took a pitcher in Vizcaino, and this is probably not a coincidence. Pitchers on this list that are not good trad include Mata and Song.

 

So to get Rizzo, it might have taken something like one of Casas or Duran and one of Houck or Seabold. Would you have dealt Casas and Houck? Or Duran and Seabold? Or who?

 

 

At least using this objective system. But the bottom line is, some sort of Potts/Groome package was not going to get anything done.,..

[dgalehouse]

There is always the chance that a traded prospect will end up making you look dumb. But as a rule, you should not hesitate to trade prospects for a proven top talent. And today , baseball hungry Latin America is providing a steady flow of new prospects every year. It's fine to consider the future, but you do have to live in the present as well. When you see a chance for the brass ring, you have to go for it. ( None of that means that I am giving up on this season. Not at all. )

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yanks have a very deep farm with a few top talents. There are some farms that are very top heavy. The Yanks are more like a middle aged guy. Thick in the middle, little on top

[notin]

There is always the chance that a traded prospect will end up making you look dumb. But as a rule, you should not hesitate to trade prospects for a proven top talent. And today , baseball hungry Latin America is providing a steady flow of new prospects every year. It's fine to consider the future, but you do have to live in the present as well. When you see a chance for the brass ring, you have to go for it. ( None of that means that I am giving up on this season. Not at all. )

 

There has to be some sort of balance, especially for only 2 months of a player.

 

Casas might be Lars Anderson 2.0, but he also might be a perennial All Star. Most likely, he falls some where in the vast grey area between. Would you or would you not have traded him for 2 months of Anthony Rizzo?

 

For me, no. He's 21 and playing in AA and could be ready to take over 1B at some point in 2022. However, someone like Gilberto Jimenez, whose only in A ball, and whose best position is very likely going to be held by Jarren Duran for the next few seasons, and who is considered a good enough prospect to at least the Sox in the conversation, is one guy I am actually surprised the Sox held on to. Now, maybe GMs really don't like Jimenez. Or maybe he was in those talks, but everyone also wanted him along with a good pitching prospect that the Sox just do not have. There are actually other possibilities beyond "Bloom just wants to hold his prospects"...

[Hugh2]

Up until the deadline the Yankees system was MUCH deeper than the Sox. They had to give up almost 1/3 of their top 20.

 

They simply had more bullets than us.

 

The Sox are obviously looking to reset the luxury tax next year too so Bloom took the route he did. Still time to get guys back into gear and win this thing and if they don’t I would except a big offseason

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

So to get Rizzo, it might have taken something like one of Casas or Duran and one of Houck or Seabold. Would you have dealt Casas and Houck? Or Duran and Seabold?

 

Well, ya... if we were getting Rizzo in his age 24-29 years (2014-19), when he averaged .901 OPS with these 162-game numbers (source bb-ref): 32 HR, 106 RBI, 96 Runs...

[a700hitter]

If your opponent has more bullets than you and he is firing those bullets at you, you still have to fire the bullets you have to give yourself a chance if you want to survive. Holding onto the bullets is no good if you can’t retreat.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Still time to get guys back into gear and win this thing and if they don’t I would except a big offseason

 

A lot of fans seem to have this wishful thinking, but I remain skeptical of big offseason spending and/or acquisitions for a few reasons:

 

1). Bloom has never spent big before; ok, ok, he's never had Boston money, either. But until it happens...

2). Who are all these big-time targets? Are they some of this summer's rentals?

3). Are any of those free agents transformational players envisioned to be part of Bloom's core of "sustained championship contenders"?

4). If not, then the only way it can be a "big offseason" is if Bloom swings some blockbusters; is he really going to part with prospect depth he's just beginning to replenish... or will he deal, say, Devers???

[notin]

If your opponent has more bullets than you and he is firing those bullets at you, you still have to fire the bullets you have to give yourself a chance if you want to survive. Holding onto the bullets is no good if you can’t retreat.

 

This analogy might require some explanation. Because it could mean you think Bloom should have dealt Casas for anyone.

 

If the Yankee prospects were better or if Hoyer liked them better, the Sox were not getting Rizzo period. No matter what Bloom did.

 

Your position seems to be Bloom didn’t even offer his best prospects. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he did. My position is it didn’t matter either way. If Bloom made mistakes at the deadline - and I agree with that - it was ignoring the second tier pitching market. (Honestly I don’t know if he ignored. All I know is he was never rumored to be involved,). I think even bringing back Jon Lester was a doable move that - while not a game changer - would have been an improvement…,

[notin]

A lot of fans seem to have this wishful thinking, but I remain skeptical of big offseason spending and/or acquisitions for a few reasons:

 

1). Bloom has never spent big before; ok, ok, he's never had Boston money, either. But until it happens...

2). Who are all these big-time targets? Are they some of this summer's rentals?

3). Are any of those free agents transformational players envisioned to be part of Bloom's core of "sustained championship contenders"?

4). If not, then the only way it can be a "big offseason" is if Bloom swings some blockbusters; is he really going to part with prospect depth he's just beginning to replenish... or will he deal, say, Devers???

 

I think you can expect all the rental players to be available since none will get qualifying offers. Even with all his extension talk, Scherzer still might be available…

[notin]

Well, ya... if we were getting Rizzo in his age 24-29 years (2014-19), when he averaged .901 OPS with these 162-game numbers (source bb-ref): 32 HR, 106 RBI, 96 Runs...

 

What about for 2 months of the Rizzo who has a lower OPS than Jon Schoop? You know, since Bloom doesn’t have a time machine…

[mvp 78]

Should have just signed Schoop last offseason like we said.

[notin]

Should have just signed Schoop last offseason like we said.

 

I’ve spent far too many off-season posts campaigning for Schoop. If some non-baseball fan was reading them, the sheer volume would give him the impression Jon Schoop was among the best players in MLB history…

[a700hitter]

This analogy might require some explanation. Because it could mean you think Bloom should have dealt Casas for anyone.

 

If the Yankee prospects were better or if Hoyer liked them better, the Sox were not getting Rizzo period. No matter what Bloom did.

 

Your position seems to be Bloom didn’t even offer his best prospects. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he did. My position is it didn’t matter either way. If Bloom made mistakes at the deadline - and I agree with that - it was ignoring the second tier pitching market. (Honestly I don’t know if he ignored. All I know is he was never rumored to be involved,). I think even bringing back Jon Lester was a doable move that - while not a game changer - would have been an improvement…,

Just pointing out that “not having enough bullets” is not an excuse to fire no bullets unless you want to lose.

[oldtimer]

Can't blame anyone for feeling frustrated with the Sox plunge down the standings. Rome is burning and who hands on the fiddle?

[notin]

Just pointing out that “not having enough bullets” is not an excuse to fire no bullets unless you want to lose.

 

It looked to me like he was trying to play at a $100! Table e with only $50 in chips. The only way he’d even get a chance to spend them is if he switched tables.

 

He did do that eventually, but maybe the nickel slots l shouldn’t have been his second choice…

[Bellhorn04]

However you look at it, this trade deadline is a PR disaster. The clichés about teams getting a lift from additions and getting down from no additions are playing out to the max, and Red Sox fans are not happy.

[a700hitter]

It looked to me like he was trying to play at a $100! Table e with only $50 in chips. The only way he’d even get a chance to spend them is if he switched tables.

 

He did do that eventually, but maybe the nickel slots l shouldn’t have been his second choice…

That is a better analogy than the metaphor with bullets.

[notin]

However you look at it, this trade deadline is a PR disaster. The clichés about teams getting a lift from additions and getting down from no additions are playing out to the max, and Red Sox fans are not happy.

 

True.

 

I really have no idea how it affects the players. Sure some might be down, but others might not care as much.

 

Right now this team is struggling to both hit and pitch. Losing two players to COVID and Bogaerts having a balky wrist are also not factors…

[Larry Cook]

Don’t worry…. Nero, aka Hang’em Chaim has a plan to fix this!

[Nick]

No one is going to care how well we play before the All Star break next year. We know they'll crack.

 

It'll be tough winter trying to sell season tickets.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Bloom failed the organization by doing dumb things like trading for two bullpen arms that aren't much better than a few guys at AAA. But more importantly, while the Schwarber trade was excellent, he needed to upgrade the position player depth so that marginal players could be jettisoned, such as Dalbec, Cordero, and Gonzalez, and replaced by useful depth players who can occasionally contribute. I do think that S.Pearce, putting aside his W.S. MVP and looking at him as a regular season player, is a pretty good prototype of the kind of player the Red Sox should have targeted and acquired at the deadline. A player like Pearce wouldn't cost the Red Sox a top prospect.

 

By strengthening the bench and jettisoning useless garbage like Gonzalez, Dalbec, and Cordero, maybe the Red Sox win the first game of the Blue Jays double-hitter, maybe they score a few extra runs with fewer automatic outs in the lineup. The Red Sox lineup is similar to a national league lineup with the pitcher hitting--there are too many easy outs, too many players with fringe hitting skills.

 

The fact that the Red Sox are still giving a ton of at bats to Gonzalez, Dalbec, and Cordero, in a season in which the Red Sox had already given them too many at bats, speaks to Bloom's failure at the deadline and perhaps Cora's failure as manager of the Red Sox. Maybe Cora should have asked the front office for better players, someone needed to do something, that much is clear.

 

What's wrong with the idea of improving your position player depth? It seems like a good idea to me especially if your present position player depth is totally inadequate and that is obviously the case with the Red Sox: Dalbec 73 OPS+, Cordero 44 OPS+, Gonzalez 56 OPS+.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

No one is going to care how well we play before the All Star break next year. We know they'll crack.

 

It'll be tough winter trying to sell season tickets.

 

Next year's team will not have Richards, Perez and some other clowns.

 

I can see being so frustrated, one might give up on 2021, but already throwing in the towel for 2022 is too much for me.

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom failed the organization by doing dumb things like trading for two bullpen arms that aren't much better than a few guys at AAA. But more importantly, while the Schwarber trade was excellent, he needed to upgrade the position player depth so that marginal players could be jettisoned, such as Dalbec, Cordero, and Gonzalez, and replaced by useful depth players who can occasionally contribute. I do think that S.Pearce, putting aside his W.S. MVP and looking at him as a regular season player, is a pretty good prototype of the kind of player the Red Sox should have targeted and acquired at the deadline. A player like Pearce wouldn't cost the Red Sox a top prospect.

 

By strengthening the bench and jettisoning useless garbage like Gonzalez, Dalbec, and Cordero, maybe the Red Sox win the first game of the Blue Jays double-hitter, maybe they score a few extra runs with fewer automatic outs in the lineup. The Red Sox lineup is similar to a national league lineup with the pitcher hitting--there are too many easy outs, too many players with fringe hitting skills.

 

The fact that the Red Sox are still giving a ton of at bats to Gonzalez, Dalbec, and Cordero, in a season in which the Red Sox had already given them too many at bats, speaks to Bloom's failure at the deadline and perhaps Cora's failure as manager of the Red Sox. Maybe Cora should have asked the front office for better players, someone needed to do something, that much is clear.

 

What's wrong with the idea of improving your position player depth? It seems like a good idea to me especially if your present position player depth is totally inadequate and that is obviously the case with the Red Sox: Dalbec 73 OPS+, Cordero 44 OPS+, Gonzalez 56 OPS+.

 

Having JD and Duran out didn't help much.

 

Going forward this year, if all healthy, we have the following hitters:

 

Devers

Bogey

JDM

Schwarber

Verdugo

Kike

Arroyo

Duran

Vazquez/Plawecki

 

All those guys on the lineup card and you have a decent offense.