A Realistic View at 2021: Part II

[Nick]

Not such a good showing today for them, but I'm sure the overall approach from Cora and the relievers was different given the 'comfortable' lead that they had.

 

Valdez had not walked a batter previously. 2 walks and 2 wild pitches today. Ugh...

[moonslav59]

I thought pivetta started out really good today, but tired by the sixth and started throwing meatballs.

 

He ended up with 101 pitches. That's a lot for mid April.

 

It would have helped his confidence had they yanked him after 5 with the line he had, then.

[Nick]

He ended up with 101 pitches. That's a lot for mid April.

 

It would have helped his confidence had they yanked him after 5 with the line he had, then.

 

Now I see why we need 14 pitchers.

 

Do we have anyone that can be sent down in order to bring up fresh arms then bring him back up again?

[moonslav59]

Now I see why we need 14 pitchers.

 

Do we have anyone that can be sent down in order to bring up fresh arms then bring him back up again?

 

We have never needed the 14th pitcher, but now we have a long stretch with no days off.

[notin]

Now I see why we need 14 pitchers.

 

Do we have anyone that can be sent down in order to bring up fresh arms then bring him back up again?

 

Anyone with an option. Taylor and Valdez head my list...

[moonslav59]

Our starters have gone 5+ in all but one game. Why did we need 14 pitchers until we reached about now, when we have consecutive games for a while? Even with a couple extra inning games,we haven't run out of pitchers.

 

Pivetta 6, Brice .2,Sawamura 1.1, Valdez 1.0

Richards 5,DHern 1.1, Ottavino 1.0, Taylor 0.2, Barnes 1.0, Andriese 1.0

Day Off

ERod 5, Whitlock 2, Andriese 1, Barnes 1

Eovaldi 7, Taylor 2

Perez 5, Brice 1, Sawamura 1, DHern 1, Barnes 1, Houck 1, Valdez 1

Pivetta 5, Andriese 2.1, DHern 0.1, Ottavino o.1, Valdez 1

Richards 2, Taylor .2, Whitlock 3.1, Sawamura 1, Barnes 1, Ottavino 1

Houck 5, Brice 1, DHern 1, Valdez 1

Day Off

Eovaldi 5.1, Andriese 1.2, Taylor .1, Brice .2, Sawamura 1

 

Where's the problem with pen overuse?

 

Hardly anyone has gone back to back days and many have gotten 2 days rest between short stints on the mound.

[Hitch]

It's easy to make those arguments with hindsight.

 

Management obviously felt there could be some effect of the pandemic and pitchers would tire earlier. The less stress we put on he pitchers now the better it will be later in the season.

 

I know it's the sports fan prerogative, but you don't have to look for something to complain about.

[oldtimer]

Good news is our bats will warm up

 

OPS-PA

JD 1.335 32

Vaz 1.176 31

Cordero .824 17

Xander .770 30

Devers 767 31

Kevin .664 11

Marwin .617 30

Kike .614 36

Verdugo .571 32

Arroyo .550 20

Renfro .361 20

Dalbec .269 23

 

Team .741 7th in AL

 

I've thought this year we have started with an experiment with three players on the roster who are relatively low cost power hitters coming into their prime years, but who all have question marks. Codero, Renfroe and Dalbec all are decent athletes and defensive players for their positions, but those question marks remain. Codero has durability question marks and doesn't hit left hand pitchers while both Dalbec and Renfroe strike out a lot which may be exploited during a full season. We also have Chavis who had options or might have made the team or been traded. he is not as good defensively but has versatility going for him. He is another question mark as far as strikeout rate..

 

The way I see Cora handling these guys is to encourage Codero to go with the pitch more and hit to left when the pitcher goes outside. With Dalbec he just wants him to make more frequent contact and not to worry about the HR. They will come. Renfroe tends to take a big swing so I don't know if Cora can get him to a better place.

 

The point is that these guys are young enough to be around in 2022 and 2023 provided the experiment shows that they can adapt. They could be solid for the team this year, help us to a winning season and be a part of a rebuilt team. I doubt they all show that they belong, but one or even more happily, two of these guys come through we have gotten a real lift. Clearly there are young stars in the making in Duran this year and Casas next depending on how these guys do.

[moonslav59]

It's easy to make those arguments with hindsight.

 

Management obviously felt there could be some effect of the pandemic and pitchers would tire earlier. The less stress we put on he pitchers now the better it will be later in the season.

 

I know it's the sports fan prerogative, but you don't have to look for something to complain about.

 

It's not hindsight, on my behalf. I was saying 13 pitchers was more than enough until mid April before the season began.

 

Now of in a day or two, we enter a stretch where it may be needed.

[moonslav59]

I've thought this year we have started with an experiment with three players on the roster who are relatively low cost power hitters coming into their prime years, but who all have question marks. Codero, Renfroe and Dalbec all are decent athletes and defensive players for their positions, but those question marks remain. Codero has durability question marks and doesn't hit left hand pitchers while both Dalbec and Renfroe strike out a lot which may be exploited during a full season. We also have Chavis who had options or might have made the team or been traded. he is not as good defensively but has versatility going for him. He is another question mark as far as strikeout rate..

 

The way I see Cora handling these guys is to encourage Codero to go with the pitch more and hit to left when the pitcher goes outside. With Dalbec he just wants him to make more frequent contact and not to worry about the HR. They will come. Renfroe tends to take a big swing so I don't know if Cora can get him to a better place.

 

The point is that these guys are young enough to be around in 2022 and 2023 provided the experiment shows that they can adapt. They could be solid for the team this year, help us to a winning season and be a part of a rebuilt team. I doubt they all show that they belong, but one or even more happily, two of these guys come through we have gotten a real lift. Clearly there are young stars in the making in Duran this year and Casas next depending on how these guys do.

 

Good points up and down. One good thing about this is that we could still win a lot of games, even if 2 of these 3 do not do all that well, and haviving Duran, Casas, or maybe even Downs or Arauz/Munoz could fill in, if one or two totally flop or get hurt.

[Hitch]

It's not hindsight, on my behalf. I was saying 13 pitchers was more than enough until mid April before the season began.

 

Now of in a day or two, we enter a stretch where it may be needed.

 

Okay, but you were guessing. And with an untried rotation with plenty of questions marks about it, and after a shortened season, it could well have gone a different way.

 

We are doing just fine and the decision was a sound one, and cost us nothing. It just seems to be searching for something to complain about.

[Bellhorn04]

It's not hindsight, on my behalf. I was saying 13 pitchers was more than enough until mid April before the season began.

 

Now of in a day or two, we enter a stretch where it may be needed.

 

What's the big deal though?

 

I think our starters have probably done a better job than expected getting through 5 innings or more.

[moonslav59]

Okay, but you were guessing. And with an untried rotation with plenty of questions marks about it, and after a shortened season, it could well have gone a different way.

 

We are doing just fine and the decision was a sound one, and cost us nothing. It just seems to be searching for something to complain about.

 

It was an opinion, and yes, a bit of a guess, but with a couple days off over the first 11 days, and the ability to call up a pitcher, if our starters floundered, early, it wasn't an uneducated guess.

 

It might have been nice to have Chavis as a PH'er in some of those close games.

 

The fact is, we haven't come close to needing 14 pitchers and in hindsight, even 12 would not have taxed one pen arm. Now, had our starters lasted 2-3 innings and not 5, we could have demoted Chavis in a flash and been no worse off. That's not really a guess.

[moonslav59]

What's the big deal though?

 

I think our starters have probably done a better job than expected getting through 5 innings or more.

 

I'm not saying it's a big deal and didn't when I suggested 13 pitchers.

 

I trust Cora and Bloom as much or more as anyone. I was just responding to a post that said "Now I see why we need 14 pitchers."

 

(I do think 14 pitchers is not a bad idea for this upcoming stretch, and I said that before the season started, too.)

[Hitch]

It was an opinion, and yes, a bit of a guess, but with a couple days off over the first 11 days, and the ability to call up a pitcher, if our starters floundered, early, it wasn't an uneducated guess.

 

It might have been nice to have Chavis as a PH'er in some of those close games.

 

The fact is, we haven't come close to needing 14 pitchers and in hindsight, even 12 would not have taxed one pen arm. Now, had our starters lasted 2-3 innings and not 5, we could have demoted Chavis in a flash and been no worse off. That's not really a guess.

 

I imagine that you agree that the educated guesses of the Sox management carry a bit more weight.

 

Chavis has done nothing to prove he should be on the team at the moment. His ST was good but then so was Dalbec's. It counts for nothing.

 

It's a long season after a very short one. The club obviously feel that the pitchers need protecting as much as possible. I'm absolutely delighted that we haven't had to use the fourteen pitchers. The more we are able to ease them into the season the better. But going into to the start, there were a lot of question marks, and the move made sense and cost us nothing. Who cares if we didn't need twelve with hindsight? That's why you don't use hindsight to question decisions at a time point.

 

I just don't understand the need to criticise the decision. We're playing great ball and leading the division. It smacks of searching for things to be annoyed about or just posting to show your prediction was correct. Either seems a bit ungracious to me, but there you go.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Hitch

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not saying it's a big deal and didn't when I suggested 13 pitchers.

 

I trust Cora and Bloom as much or more as anyone. I was just responding to a post that said "Now I see why we need 14 pitchers."

 

(I do think 14 pitchers is not a bad idea for this upcoming stretch, and I said that before the season started, too.)

 

Well, maybe they also hoped to get a look at both Brice and Valdez in real MLB games to see where they're at.

 

I'm sure they took a lot more into consideration than we do.

[moonslav59]

Well, maybe they also hoped to get a look at both Brice and Valdez in real MLB games to see where they're at.

 

I'm sure they took a lot more into consideration than we do.

 

...and that's why I said and have said often, "I trust Cora and Bloom."

 

I will add that both Brice and Valdez started out with 3 IP and 0 ERs, so that was nice. I think the choice was probably between Valdez and Chavis, since Brice is out of options, and we could have had Valdez in Boston within hours, had we started the season taxing the pen.

 

Again, this is not a big deal, and I'm not trying to be critical of Sox management. I love it.

 

I was just pointing out that we did not need 14 pitchers as one poster implied we had needed them all.

[Bellhorn04]

...and that's why I said and have said often, "I trust Cora and Bloom."

 

I will add that both Brice and Valdez started out with 3 IP and 0 ERs, so that was nice. I think the choice was probably between Valdez and Chavis, since Brice is out of options, and we could have had Valdez in Boston within hours, had we started the season taxing the pen.

 

But this way Valdez got in some real games. Maybe that's what they wanted.

[moonslav59]

I imagine that you agree that the educated guesses of the Sox management carry a bit more weight.

 

Chavis has done nothing to prove he should be on the team at the moment. His ST was good but then so was Dalbec's. It counts for nothing.

 

It's a long season after a very short one. The club obviously feel that the pitchers need protecting as much as possible. I'm absolutely delighted that we haven't had to use the fourteen pitchers. The more we are able to ease them into the season the better. But going into to the start, there were a lot of question marks, and the move made sense and cost us nothing. Who cares if we didn't need twelve with hindsight? That's why you don't use hindsight to question decisions at a time point.

 

I just don't understand the need to criticise the decision. We're playing great ball and leading the division. It smacks of searching for things to be annoyed about or just posting to show your prediction was correct. Either seems a bit ungracious to me, but there you go.

 

I've said all along, I trust Sox management. I even called Cora our best manager, ever, and caught a bunch of flack for that. Now, I'm being criticized for responding to a post about the hindsight need for 14 pitchers. I criticizing that position NOT Cora/Bloom. I then pointed out that I had held that position before the season started, when you made it sound like I was Monday morning QB'ing.

 

I didn't think we needed 14 pitchers over the first 11 days, and it turned out we didn't. Had we needed 14, we could have called someone up in a jiffy. Holding that position does not mean I think Cora/Bloom messed up or were "wrong."

 

They got to see what they wanted to see: Valdez, Brice, Whitlock, Andriese and others in live action. That has real value and merit. I know they know more than I do, but that dosn't mean I can't hold and express my opinion without sounding like or even implying I know more than they do.

 

You should read a game thread to see real sharp Cora criticism. What I said was not.

 

Can anyone honestly say we NEEDED 14 pitchers? Of course not (in hindsight).

[moonslav59]

But this way Valdez got in some real games. Maybe that's what they wanted.

 

Again, I am not doubting what management wanted or its merit.

 

A poster said:

 

"Now I see why we need 14 pitchers.

 

Do we have anyone that can be sent down in order to bring up fresh arms then bring him back up again?"

 

I did not see a "need," but that does not mean nothing was gained or learned by going with 14, or that going with 14 was dumb or worthy of criticism.

 

I didn't think we need 14 for the first 11 days, and it turned out we did not. We certainly don't need "fresh arms," because anyone has been overworked or sucked enough to be replaced.

 

Want and need are two separate things, and wanting to see how our pen arms looked has a lot of merit and I'm not doubting their choice, since they know what they want to see more than I do. One can argue they "needed" to test several arms in live action, and that need superceded the need to have Chavis as a PH'er, and I can't argue with that.

 

But we did not NEED 14 pitchers over 11 days, nor are we in need of "fresh arms."

Edited April 12, 2021 by moonslav59

[Nick]

Gee, I sarcastically said maybe we needed 14 pitchers after all and all the hell breaks loose.....it was lightheartedly mentioned guys....we're 6-3 after losing to horrendous Orioles 3 straight at home....life is good....

 

I do have question for baseball guys......

 

How taxing is it to pitch back to back days for one inning? Say 20-30 pitches each day. Do you need two days of rest or three after that? Is it about the pitch count or number of times you get up in the pen?

Edited April 12, 2021 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

How taxing is it to pitch back to back days for one inning? Say 20-30 pitches each day. Do you need two days of rest or three after that?

 

1 average inning = 15-18 pitches.

 

Most relievers can pitch 1 inning 2 or 3 days in a row.

 

Pitching 2 innings requires at least one day off afterward.

 

I think the way it's down now is pretty scientific and planned out over the whole season for a limit of X number of innings.

[notin]

I'm fine with 14 pitchers. I'm happier with it if at least two of Brice, Valdez and Taylor are not among them...

[moonslav59]

1 average inning = 15-18 pitches.

 

Most relievers can pitch 1 inning 2 or 3 days in a row.

 

Pitching 2 innings requires at least one day off afterward.

 

I think the way it's down now is pretty scientific and planned out over the whole season for a limit of X number of innings.

 

That sounds about right. Guys like barnes do much better every other day, but I think most one inning guys can go 2 out of 3 days, as long as their innings aren't mostly 20-22+ pitches.

[moonslav59]

I'm fine with 14 pitchers. I'm happier with it if at least two of Brice, Valdez and Taylor are not among them...

 

I'm not sure we have 3 better guys at the alt site or AAA. 1 for sure, is Houck, but the others are just as sketchy.

[notin]

I'm not sure we have 3 better guys at the alt site or AAA. 1 for sure, is Houck, but the others are just as sketchy.

 

Certainly Houck needs to be on the roster and Taylor needs to go to Worcester.

 

Replacing the other 2 will just have to take longer. But Taylor has to go first because Cora seems to think he can pitch in important spots...

[Hitch]

Can anyone honestly say we NEEDED 14 pitchers? Of course not (in hindsight).

 

I'll say again, nothing like this should be judged on the benefit of hindsight. You agree there were reasons to do what they did. I think the conversation doesn't need anymore than this.

 

As an aside I didn't think you were going after Cora in particular, as I imagine it was group decision.

 

As an aside to the aside, I stay clear of the game threads. If I wanted that kind of night I'd put some Joni on and scroll through pictures of old lovers.

[mvp 78]

I'm not sure we have 3 better guys at the alt site or AAA. 1 for sure, is Houck, but the others are just as sketchy.

 

I think I'd probably trust Brewer on the current roster. I didn't see Bazardo in ST, but reports are that his stuff is way up. I would keep Seabold to start the season and make sure he's stretched out. I think they'll need him by the All Star break.

[notin]

I think I'd probably trust Brewer on the current roster. I didn't see Bazardo in ST, but reports are that his stuff is way up. I would keep Seabold to start the season and make sure he's stretched out. I think they'll need him by the All Star break.

 

The Sox also have Daniel Gossett. Very short track record as an ineffective MLB starter, but might be a viable option in the back of the pen. All he has to be is better than Valdez or Brice right now...

[mvp 78]

The Sox also have Daniel Gossett. Very short track record as an ineffective MLB starter, but might be a viable option in the back of the pen. All he has to be is better than Valdez or Brice right now...

 

He's not on the 40 man. Seems like he'd only come up if there was a 60day IL guy.