Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

[Bellhorn04]

So if you understand a billionaire and his budget then you must be one. I'm not and I don't pretend to have a clue about a multi billionaire and his budget but I'm guessing that to a very large majority of the population John Henry's budget is meaningless. I truly do not think that he has any concern other than making more money. I don't consider that a bad thing necessarily although today most billionaires are vilified and have to take a ration of s***. You think JH gets a free pass because we have won some titles?

 

I think he should get a bit of a pass, not just because of the titles, but because since he bought the team we have had one of the highest payrolls year in and year out, and contending teams most years.

 

I think that's about all you can ask of an owner.

[Kimmi]

I will tell you right now, Betts was moved for WAY more than I thought he would be

 

It's not way more than I thought they would get, but in no way did the Sox get hosed. It's a very good return. Many thought that Betts for Verdugo straight up would be a very good return.

 

Downs and Wong are a very good start to replenishing our farm system in areas of particular need.

 

Now, Bloom needs to turn his attention to some starting pitching for this year.

[sk7326]

So if you understand a billionaire and his budget then you must be one. I'm not and I don't pretend to have a clue about a multi billionaire and his budget but I'm guessing that to a very large majority of the population John Henry's budget is meaningless. I truly do not think that he has any concern other than making more money. I don't consider that a bad thing necessarily although today most billionaires are vilified and have to take a ration of s***. You think JH gets a free pass because we have won some titles?

 

The premise in that comment is that the budget comes down in tablets from Mount Sinai instead of a decision the Fenway Sports Group makes. And it is perfectly okay to question that premise. I mean I certainly do.

 

I mean, the Red Sox made what is probably a fair-ish baseball deal considering the variables. But they also punted on 4-6 prime years of someone on a HoF trajectory, and the current return is highly unlikely to produce a single All Star appearance, all while being one of the prime earners in an industry drowning in cash. That's just the reality. (note: the new version of the trade increases the probability of very positive outcomes of course, but it's still the usual math associated with young'ins)

 

The Sox are not unique here of course. The Dodgers are trying to reset too, and we know that the Yankees in recent years have spent a relative pittance of their revenue on the major league roster (and it's still a high payroll team). It will be a fun wrestling issue for the next CBA - the players right now get all of the downsides of a salary cap without the upsides the players in say the NBA get.

[Kimmi]

When the entire league treats crossing the tax 3 times in a row an abhorrence, then you just gotta understand that it what it is

 

Amen.

[moonslav59]

Henry has brought glory and success to this franchise, something I wasn't sure I'd ever see in my lifetime. We saw past GMs and owners treat blacks poorly, not even send a contract to Fisk (losing him for nothing) and years and years of spending just enough to give us the impression we might win.

 

What did we do? We flocked to Fenway in droves, signed up for NESN every year, and bought Red Sox memorabilia left and right.

 

Now, Henry decides to step back, and when I say step back, I'm talking still being a top 5 spender in MLB, and people want to rip him a new A-hole and boycott the team.

 

99.9% of the time, I take the side of the employee or union, but I'm siding with Henry on this one. The guy has single-handedly brought us up from the ashes. Four freaking rings!

 

Plus, it's not like Henry has pledged to never spend again. He spent way more than any other team last year and then paid a hefty tax on top just to watch us flop. I'd want to reset, too. We should be able to win without going over the tax line by $40M every year, and if it takes a year to reset, before we get back into the race, I'm fine with the strategy.

 

We all knew DD was going for "today" at the expense of tomorrow, and eventually that strategy catches up to you.

 

It caught up to us earlier than anyone expected, and to me, resetting is the best way to make the rebuild shorter and better.

 

I'll still have fun watching the Sox, this year. I'll watch every pitch of every game and actually feel better this year than last. I expected us to win in 2019 knowing our time was near. Now, I have lower expectation for the upcoming season but am way more optimistic about the extended future, which includes way more than just one year.

 

It would have really sucked watching us lose again in 2020 knowing we'd also be screwed for many years to come.

[Kimmi]

As much as I can not stand the Yankees, last I looked, they had 20 plus championships more than us,

 

Although almost 2/3 of their great teams of the 20’s were our guys that our owner sold off to them to finance broadway plays! So technically, we probably would have won most of those.

 

I am talking about during the Henry era. No team stands up to the Red Sox during that time frame.

[moonslav59]

Nice phrase. You (and Kimmie) have chanced my thinking on this. It reminds me of what the great philosopher Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes.... you get what you need.'

 

We'd all like to see Mookie around for his entire career, but at what price? Do you want to see him here forever if it means we never win a WSC again because JH can't/won't spend enough additional money to put quality players around him?

 

We may not like this but it may be what we need.

 

When the entire league treats crossing the tax 3 times in a row an abhorrence, then you just gotta understand that it what it is

 

Plus, look how much we spent above the next team or the 3rd or 4th team. It was sick.

 

A reset was mandatory.

[Bellhorn04]

The 2019 team had Mookie but there was nonstop griping about the disappointing performance all year long. I don't remember too many people saying they still enjoyed watching the games because of Mookie.

[sk7326]

Plus, look how much we spent above the next team or the 3rd or 4th team. It was sick.

 

A reset was mandatory.

 

I am empathetic with a lot of your posts on this issue. But this is just silly. It's not your money. There is no civic obligation for the Red Sox to not invest in the major league team - if anything, the obligation is the reverse.

 

Caveat: If we find out (not from the Globe) that Mookie would have rather sat through one a timeshare pitch than play for the Red Sox ever again, and made that clear - the calculus here changes quite a bit.

Edited February 10, 2020 by sk7326

[Kimmi]

I am empathetic with a lot of your posts on this issue. But this is just silly. It's not your money. There is no civic obligation for the Red Sox to not invest in the major league team - if anything, the obligation is the reverse.

 

I very much disagree. It's not like Henry is a tight wad. I don't see that he has any obligation to continue to pay extreme tax penalties when he consistently puts a contending product on the field.

[VJCPatriot]

It's not way more than I thought they would get, but in no way did the Sox get hosed. It's a very good return. Many thought that Betts for Verdugo straight up would be a very good return.

 

Downs and Wong are a very good start to replenishing our farm system in areas of particular need.

 

Now, Bloom needs to turn his attention to some starting pitching for this year.

 

Jeter Downs + Wong > risky Gaterol

 

So yes this trade got better with this simple change of prospects.

 

I'm still not thrilled but at least we have three tickets now and they are all healthier bets than Gaterol.

 

We still eat half of Price's contract. Wish we could have negotiated that down to retaining 1/3. Cos Price at $20m per year is actually a reasonable deal in today's market. Price at $15m per year is giving him away.

 

Are we under the Lux Tax yet or do we still need to trade off JBJ's 11m?

[Bellhorn04]

Jeter Downs + Wong > risky Gaterol

 

So yes this trade got better with this simple change of prospects.

 

I'm still not thrilled but at least we have three tickets now and they are all healthier bets than Gaterol.

 

We still eat half of Price's contract. Wish we could have negotiated that down to retaining 1/3. Cos Price at $20m per year is actually a reasonable deal in today's market. Price at $15m per year is giving him away.

 

Are we under the Lux Tax yet or do we still need to trade off JBJ's 11m?

 

Under by 19.6 million at the moment.

[S5Dewey]

Oh, I've noticed. I'm not on here to be the grammar or spelling police though.

 

OOps. But do I get some points for saying you were a part of changing my mind?

[Jasonbay44]

The 2019 team had Mookie but there was nonstop griping about the disappointing performance all year long. I don't remember too many people saying they still enjoyed watching the games because of Mookie.

 

Mookie was one of only reasons I even wanted to watch them. That was a frustrating team but Devers, Mookie, Xander, JD and a few others at least made it watchable.

[mvp 78]

Mookie was one of only reasons I even wanted to watch them. That was a frustrating team but Devers, Mookie, Xander, JD and a few others at least made it watchable.

 

That’s why “as a fan” I wanted Betts to stay.

[jung]

Under by 19.6 million at the moment.

 

Do you have a reference for that? It sounds more below the threshold than we should be. That said given all the elements that go into the calculation I don't even think the teams know until MLB tells them....another oddity of MLB. Sort of like a rocket ship baseball that became more of a rocket ship three out of the last four years with no forewarning to anybody. Just another of the many surprise packages from MLB.

[jung]

The premise in that comment is that the budget comes down in tablets from Mount Sinai instead of a decision the Fenway Sports Group makes. And it is perfectly okay to question that premise. I mean I certainly do.

 

I mean, the Red Sox made what is probably a fair-ish baseball deal considering the variables. But they also punted on 4-6 prime years of someone on a HoF trajectory, and the current return is highly unlikely to produce a single All Star appearance, all while being one of the prime earners in an industry drowning in cash. That's just the reality. (note: the new version of the trade increases the probability of very positive outcomes of course, but it's still the usual math associated with young'ins)

 

The Sox are not unique here of course. The Dodgers are trying to reset too, and we know that the Yankees in recent years have spent a relative pittance of their revenue on the major league roster (and it's still a high payroll team). It will be a fun wrestling issue for the next CBA - the players right now get all of the downsides of a salary cap without the upsides the players in say the NBA get.

 

The "beauty" or hated pervasiveness of the lux tax is on display here. Ask a businessman to spend money to improve his product or his market position and for the most part you will find them all in. Tell a businessman he is paying a penalty to the tune of millions of dollars and you would do just as well to give him a stomach ulcer and let him bleed himself to death. Just the way it is.

 

It really does not matter if he can afford it or not. Bad for his health.

Edited February 11, 2020 by jung

[a700hitter]

I know that some of you guys have pre-teen kids who like baseball. When I walk my dog, at times kids wearing Red Sox hats or shirts come over to greet the dog. I always ask them who is their favorite player. Almost every single time, the answer is Mookie Betts. Many of them are easy to identify, because they are wearing Betts shirts. It remind me of when my son was that age in the late 90's and all the kids loved Nomar. When the Sox traded Nomar, he was 30 yrs old and physically shot. Those kids who are Mookie fans are crushed.

[sk7326]

The "beauty" or hated pervasiveness of the lux tax is on display here. Ask a businessman to spend money to improve his product or his market position and for the most part you will find them all in. Tell a businessman he is paying a penalty to the tune of millions of dollars and you would do just as well to give him a stomach ulcer and let him bleed himself to death. Just the way it is.

 

It really does not matter if he can afford it or not. Bad for his health.

 

Yes - the NBA which has a cap and tax faces the same deal, but the players locked in a guaranteed slice of the pie ... the baseball players screwed the pooch there. I fully expect a salary cap (probably a soft one) to come into place with the next CBA - though I also expect a work stoppage.

[sk7326]

I know that some of you guys have pre-teen kids who like baseball. When I walk my dog, at times kids wearing Red Sox hats or shirts come over to greet the dog. I always ask them who is their favorite player. Almost every single time, the answer is Mookie Betts. Many of them are easy to identify, because they are wearing Betts shirts. It remind me of when my son was that age in the late 90's and all the kids loved Nomar. When the Sox traded Nomar, he was 30 yrs old and physically shot. Those kids who are Mookie fans are crushed.

 

The reason teams have farm systems at all is to find someone like Mookie Betts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes - the NBA which has a cap and tax faces the same deal, but the players locked in a guaranteed slice of the pie ... the baseball players screwed the pooch there. I fully expect a salary cap (probably a soft one) to come into place with the next CBA - though I also expect a work stoppage.

 

The owners hold the bag right now. The players had no idea how the Lux tax would affect spending and how the new analytics would drop the price of free agency. The very very top are still getting paid, but the second tier is getting shafted

[jung]

The owners hold the bag right now. The players had no idea how the Lux tax would affect spending and how the new analytics would drop the price of free agency. The very very top are still getting paid, but the second tier is getting shafted

 

Not sure there has ever been a good formula for spreading the wealth more evenly. A bit worse with the lux tax. But it has always been a sports entertainment enterprise that rewarded the top players and attempted to screw everybody else. Funny how Free Agency did not change that dynamic much. The time of the guaranteed contract may need to come to an end if there is ever going to be a hope of leveling the playing field. The teams have too much money tied up in dead or non-performing contracts which has effects that tend to roll downhill to everybody.

 

I have not done a study of this but i suspect there is a big gap now in contract term with the very best players able to command long term deals and everybody else lucky to squeeze three years out of ownership.

[jad]

The reason teams have farm systems at all is to find someone like Mookie Betts.

 

Really? And how many Mookie's have those farm systems produced in the past decade? How about the one named Mookie who until this last week was on thte RS roster?

[fxkatt]

The reason teams have farm systems at all is to find someone like Mookie Betts.

 

I thought it was mainly to manage a budget through player contract control, which is why we didn't want to lose a bunch of draft picks via the lux tax

[moonslav59]

It was very nice when we had Betts, Bogey, JBJ and others making pre-arb and early arb dollars. They contributed greatly while allowing budget space to fill other high need areas.

[Jasonbay44]

I know that some of you guys have pre-teen kids who like baseball. When I walk my dog, at times kids wearing Red Sox hats or shirts come over to greet the dog. I always ask them who is their favorite player. Almost every single time, the answer is Mookie Betts. Many of them are easy to identify, because they are wearing Betts shirts. It remind me of when my son was that age in the late 90's and all the kids loved Nomar. When the Sox traded Nomar, he was 30 yrs old and physically shot. Those kids who are Mookie fans are crushed.

 

I'm pretty crushed and I'm 25... I definitely felt the pain when we traded Manny in 2008, I was 14, and actually joined this site around the time we traded Manny to discuss it with other people, and even made my name after the dude we traded Manny for, who had a mostly irrelevant Red Sox career.

[SCM33]

Who knew there were so many fans who care only about watching one guy play for one losing season at the expense of several years of winning, afterwards?

 

Redsox still have one of the highest payrolls in the game.

Redsox still have the highest ticket price in the game.

 

Losing for any reason, is not good enough. Also, why are you certain they will win after the luxury tax dump? They got into this mess because they made a lot of terrible decisions over the past 5 years.

[moonslav59]

Redsox still have one of the highest payrolls in the game.

Redsox still have the highest ticket price in the game.

 

Losing for any reason, is not good enough. Also, why are you certain they will win after the luxury tax dump? They got into this mess because they made a lot of terrible decisions over the past 5 years.

 

I don't know, but we do have a GM with a completely different M.O. than DD, and I'm guessing/hoping we go back to spending large after we reset- just not stupidly and not all the eggs in 1-2 baskets, unless it's Betts.

[moonslav59]

I'm not claiming the trade value site is super accurate or all that trustworthy, but it's interesting to see how lopsided they viewed the trade. It would not have been accepted due to LA not getting enough value.

 

Price: -55.3 Value/owed $96M. Break even number: $41.7M. The Dodgers are paying $48M, so we gained $6.3M in "value."

 

Betts: +50.7 Value (despite the $27M/1 contract)

 

Verdugo: +47.7 Value

J Downs: +21.7 Value

C Wong: +4.3 Value

Total: 73.7 Value

 

Sox net gain on talent: +23

Sox net gain on Price: +6.3

 

Total Sox gain: +29.3

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't know, but we do have a GM with a completely different M.O. than DD, and I'm guessing/hoping we go back to spending large after we reset- just not stupidly and not all the eggs in 1-2 baskets, unless it's Betts.

 

I just wish he would give one straight answer to a straight question. It's hard to trust politicians, which is what they all sound like now... except maybe BOH -- he actually looked pissed or troubled sitting up there tonight. Maybe it's because he's been with Betts from the beginning; Bloom the outsider has no emotional connection or past (maybe that's why he hired, as the perfect executioner).