2018 Red Sox cheating scandal

[Bellhorn04]

Righthander Mike Fiers, who reportedly turned in the Houston Astros, has played for four teams, including two clubs after the Astros, in his nine-year MLB career.

 

If every team does it, why did Fiers apparently limit his disclosure to the Astros?

 

Perhaps because the Astros took it a new level with the decoding and garbage can banging from the dugout, while other teams were decoding and signaling from the basepaths, which has been going on forever.

[Thunder]

Perhaps because the Astros took it a new level with the decoding and garbage can banging from the dugout, while other teams were decoding and signaling from the basepaths, which has been going on forever.

 

Exactly. Astros took it to new extremes and were being blatant about it. We tried to pull a fast one by taking advantage of the technological resources available to us, and then infusing it with the normal 2nd base sign stealing that has gone on forever

[harmony]

Exactly. Astros took it to new extremes and were being blatant about it. We tried to pull a fast one by taking advantage of the technological resources available to us, and then infusing it with the normal 2nd base sign stealing that has gone on forever

No one disputes that teams have stolen sign forever.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/01/sports/sports-of-the-times-branca-knew-51-giants-stole-signs.html

 

The issue is whether all current teams have illegally used technology to steal signs. I've seen no report that Mike Fiers turned in his other teams for an illegal use of technology.

[Thunder]

No one disputes that teams have stolen sign forever.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/01/sports/sports-of-the-times-branca-knew-51-giants-stole-signs.html

 

The issue is whether all current teams have illegally used technology to steal signs. I've seen no report that Mike Fiers turned in his other teams for an illegal use of technology.

 

Yeah, because we are the only ones to have done that, at least that we know of. It started with the Apple Watch fiasco a few years ago

[a700hitter]

Exactly. Astros took it to new extremes and were being blatant about it. We tried to pull a fast one by taking advantage of the technological resources available to us, and then infusing it with the normal 2nd base sign stealing that has gone on forever

From what I understand, the Astros sign stealing was the worst kept secret in baseball. I don't understand why it became the subject of a huge investigation. Sign stealing has been going on for forever. yes, the Astro's employed modern technology, but the banging of the garbage can tipped off pitchers that something was going on. I don't understand why the game just didn't police itself. If Astros batters started getting buried at the plate, it would have stopped.

[harmony]

Yeah, because we are the only ones to have done that, at least that we know of. It started with the Apple Watch fiasco a few years ago

As technology evolves the MLB rules evolve.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/02/19/major-league-baseball-sign-stealing-rule-change

 

A practice that fell within a gray area one season may be a clear violation the next year ... or not.

Edited March 28, 2020 by harmony

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As technology evolves the MLB rules evolve.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/02/19/major-league-baseball-sign-stealing-rule-change

 

A practice that fell within a gray area one season may be a clear violation the next year ... or not.

 

Notice how the subtitle of Verducci's article said "slowing down the game" was the reason for Manfred's crackdown on sign-stealing? Nowhere in the title or subtitle is the word "cheaters".

 

"About six teams last year were commonly understood to have installed in-house cameras in centerfield that were trained on opposing catchers’ signs, according to one general manager. Several other teams were under heavy suspicion. The sign stealing forced most teams to adopt multiple sets of signs even with the bases empty. Those signs were changed often, even within at-bats, which slowed the pace of play."

 

I have no evidence, but would have to imagine that all analytics departments constantly analyze game video, and that trying to decipher signs would be a regular function of the office (and those that don't, would not be doing a thorough job to get an edge). That said, this article is from a year ago -- a year later than the allegations against the Red Sox state.

 

Even so, MLB has spent too much time and money investigating the Sox, so I expect harsh penalties to at least justify that time and money. This isn't, after all, Project Bluebook or the Warren Commission. Or... is it?

[S5Dewey]

This may or may not be pertinent to the sign stealing discussion at hand, but....

 

While at JBP this year I was standing at the top of the runway directly behind home plate when I was asked by one of the ushers to move along. I gave him a quizzical look because there was no one around me at the time so I wasn't obstructing any pedestrian traffic and he pointed to a big open space in the wall of the stadium directly above and behind me.

 

"See that square opening up there?", he said. "That's got a fixed camera behind it and it and you can't stand in the way of it". I looked up and saw the opening and the camera and also saw two square objects mounted above and slightly to one side of the opening. One was gray and about four feet by four feet and the other was black and about eight feet by eight feet, about four times the size of the gray one.

 

"Ok", I asked him as I was moving to one side, "So what are those other two things?"

 

"Those two square things along with the camera record everything about every pitch" he said. "The positioning on the rubber, the body movement, the hand and arm position, the position of the grip on the ball, the arm slot, the spin rate, the type of pitch, the amount of break. Everything you can think of and some things you can't. That's cutting edge technology and our analytics department analyzes them after every game to work with the pitchers on their delivery."

 

If there's the technology to do that is there any doubt that any team can steal signs using a hidden center field camera?

[Kimmi]

To my understanding, what we were "allegedly" doing wasn't nearly as bad as the Astros. I have a friend, who while biased as a Yankees fan, is well-informed on these matters. I'm not exactly sure what it is we were doing, but he said it was the same thing that basically every team does now, except we took it too far by using technology

 

It has sounded like a few players may have been going in and looking at replay technology to try to understand the signs being used. That information was then made available to runners who reached second. Those players could then relay the information to the batter. If this is what happened, it is only slightly different than having a really smart sign stealer at 2nd base without the technology. I'd hazard a guess that all teams were doing some of that. Manfred's findings should ask the question of whether similar situations occurred throughout baseball before deciding on penalties. What Houston did went way beyond what I described above.

 

I agree that the Sox will not be found guilty of doing anything as egregious as what the Astros did. I also believe that every other team is guilty of stealing signs to some degree or another. Are the Sox the only team besides the Astros to use technology? I seriously doubt it.

 

The Sox got caught and should be punished accordingly. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the other teams and players who act like they are innocent victims when they know that they aren't.

[Kimmi]

This may or may not be pertinent to the sign stealing discussion at hand, but....

 

While at JBP this year I was standing at the top of the runway directly behind home plate when I was asked by one of the ushers to move along. I gave him a quizzical look because there was no one around me at the time so I wasn't obstructing any pedestrian traffic and he pointed to a big open space in the wall of the stadium directly above and behind me.

 

"See that square opening up there?", he said. "That's got a fixed camera behind it and it and you can't stand in the way of it". I looked up and saw the opening and the camera and also saw two square objects mounted above and slightly to one side of the opening. One was gray and about four feet by four feet and the other was black and about eight feet by eight feet, about four times the size of the gray one.

 

"Ok", I asked him as I was moving to one side, "So what are those other two things?"

 

"Those two square things along with the camera record everything about every pitch" he said. "The positioning on the rubber, the body movement, the hand and arm position, the position of the grip on the ball, the arm slot, the spin rate, the type of pitch, the amount of break. Everything you can think of and some things you can't. That's cutting edge technology and our analytics department analyzes them after every game to work with the pitchers on their delivery."

 

If there's the technology to do that is there any doubt that any team can steal signs using a hidden center field camera?

 

This is also the same type of technology that the analytics people use for the defensive metrics that you love so much.

 

Back to the subject at hand, I have no doubt that sign stealing with the help of technology runs far deeper in MLB than just the Sox and the Astros. No doubt in my mind.

[Thunder]

Back to the subject at hand, I have no doubt that sign stealing with the help of technology runs far deeper in MLB than just the Sox and the Astros. No doubt in my mind.

 

I'll believe it when I see it

[harmony]

This is also the same type of technology that the analytics people use for the defensive metrics that you love so much.

 

Back to the subject at hand, I have no doubt that sign stealing with the help of technology runs far deeper in MLB than just the Sox and the Astros. No doubt in my mind.

Why did righthander Mike Fiers single out only the Astros among his four MLB clubs, two of which came after his tenure in Houston?

 

Most teams likely steal signs on some level but many clubs probably know where to draw the line.

 

Or not.

[Thunder]

Did righthander Mike Fiers single out only the Astros among his four MLB clubs, two of which came after his tenure in Houston?

 

Most teams steal signs on some level but many clubs probably know where to draw the line.

 

Or not.

 

That's the second time today you've brought up Fiers. Get another example

[S5Dewey]

This is also the same type of technology that the analytics people use for the defensive metrics that you love so much.

 

That's not what I've been told. I've been told that "they" have trained, impartial observers, watching every defensive play. I've heard nothing about technology and defense.

[harmony]

That's the second time today you've brought up Fiers. Get another example

[Thunder]

 

That just tells me that everybody knew about the Astros, which is what I said earlier. They were being incredibly blatant about it

[Bellhorn04]

That just tells me that everybody knew about the Astros, which is what I said earlier. They were being incredibly blatant about it

 

Which is what I suggested to harmony as well.

[notin]

That's not what I've been told. I've been told that "they" have trained, impartial observers, watching every defensive play. I've heard nothing about technology and defense.

 

It’s been mentioned.

 

I’ve heard a lot of it went to software a while back, which annoyed me. I wanted that job!

[harmony]

That just tells me that everybody knew about the Astros, which is what I said earlier. They were being incredibly blatant about it

MLB probably has interviewed scores of witnesses regarding the tactics of many clubs. MLB must weigh likely conflicting accounts and pass judgment on the credibility of each witness before rendering conclusions.

 

The Red Sox may be cleared of any wrongdoing but recently a Red Sox attorney reportedly stated in court:

 

Your Honor, I think that there are distinctions between what the Red Sox believe occurred and what the commissioner found. And I think that certainly they’re entitled to disagree that that activity happened at the club level.

When the judge asked whether the Red Sox admit violations of the rules in 2018 the attorney reportedly refused to admit violations, according to this account:

 

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/03/20/lawyer-for-red-sox-suggests-that-team-is-aware-of-mlb-cheating-report-findings

[Bellhorn04]

MLB probably has interviewed scores of witnesses regarding the tactics of many clubs. MLB must weigh likely conflicting accounts and pass judgment on the credibility of each witness before rendering conclusions.

 

The Red Sox may be cleared of any wrongdoing but recently a Red Sox attorney reportedly stated in court:

 

 

When the judge asked whether the Red Sox admit violations of the rules in 2018 the attorney reportedly refused to admit violations, according to this account:

 

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/03/20/lawyer-for-red-sox-suggests-that-team-is-aware-of-mlb-cheating-report-findings

 

Maybe one of the reasons the Red Sox investigation took so long was because of findings being disputed.

[Thunder]

Maybe one of the reasons the Red Sox investigation took so long was because of findings being disputed.

 

The other question I have from this: Does being the Red Sox lawyer give you free season tickets? If so, I'm applying to law school right now

[Bellhorn04]

The other question I have from this: Does being the Red Sox lawyer give you free season tickets? If so, I'm applying to law school right now

 

They might need an accountant, too.

[Thunder]

They might need an accountant, too.

 

Well yeah, but I was already considering law school. No offense to you and MVP, but I really don't want to be an accountant, at least not a traditional accountant. The boring desk job is not for me

[harmony]

The other question I have from this: Does being the Red Sox lawyer give you free season tickets? If so, I'm applying to law school right now

The Red Sox attorney practices out a prominent New York law firm that broke ranks with New York Yankees two decades ago:

 

https://www.cravath.com/lmoskowitz/

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-10-21/why-david-boies-left-cravath

 

Good luck on your law school applications. The COVID-19 crisis has thrown a wrench into my daughter's plans to enter law school this fall.

[mvp 78]

Well yeah, but I was already considering law school. No offense to you and MVP, but I really don't want to be an accountant, at least not a traditional accountant. The boring desk job is not for me

 

None taken.

 

I had a job where I worked outside all day. I had a job where I had to lift heavy s*** and drive around. I had a job as an after school teacher. I had a job working on computers. My boring desk job has brought me more happiness than the others.

 

I hope you find the right one for you.

[Thunder]

None taken.

 

I had a job where I worked outside all day. I had a job where I had to lift heavy s*** and drive around. I had a job as an after school teacher. I had a job working on computers. My boring desk job has brought me more happiness than the others.

 

I hope you find the right one for you.

 

Still trying to use my connections with UConn football to get a job in sports. The problem with that is that everybody says you burn out really easily, and I started to see that firsthand last year. Every road game we would get back in the wee hours of Sunday morning, and then we had to come right back for a practice on Sunday afternoon

[Kimmi]

Why did righthander Mike Fiers single out only the Astros among his four MLB clubs, two of which came after his tenure in Houston?

 

Most teams likely steal signs on some level but many clubs probably know where to draw the line.

 

Or not.

 

I'd bet that more teams incorporate the use of technology than just the Red Sox and the Astros. Many more teams.

 

I don't know why Fiers would single out only the Astros. I don't know what his agenda is. Perhaps he has a beef with the team? Perhaps it's because the Astros were so blatant in their cheating? Just because Fiers only singled out one team does not mean the other teams are innocent.

[Kimmi]

That's not what I've been told. I've been told that "they" have trained, impartial observers, watching every defensive play. I've heard nothing about technology and defense.

 

They do have trained, impartial observers watching every defensive play. They also have the technology that gives them pretty much every piece of information imaginable regarding that play for those trained, impartial observers to use.

[Kimmi]

It’s been mentioned.

 

I’ve heard a lot of it went to software a while back, which annoyed me. I wanted that job!

 

The great thing about the new defensive metrics is that they are continually being refined and improved. With the advancements in technology, those metrics are only going to get better.

[Kimmi]

None taken.

 

I had a job where I worked outside all day. I had a job where I had to lift heavy s*** and drive around. I had a job as an after school teacher. I had a job working on computers. My boring desk job has brought me more happiness than the others.

 

I hope you find the right one for you.

 

I love my job and I love my students, but there are many days that I wish I had a 'boring desk job'. LOL