The Pen

[jung]

On the slider front, where pitchers are getting into trouble is that they’re throwing two different types of sliders. They’re throwing a “get me over” slider, which is essentially a hanger by design to get a strike. More using it as an off speed pitch rather than an actual slider. Then they have the sharper one when they need it. It’s VERY hard to be able to command and repeat both. So you’re seeing a lot of sliders hung. Pitchers had to pitch backwards because they cannot locate their fastballs. Guys get to the bigs with big velocity, but they sell control for that velocity and now have trouble hitting spots with it. So they rely on deception and velocity rather than command.

 

Well into counts nobody is throwing get me over sliders. The get me over slider is just the slider version of the get me over FB. Both are thrown early in counts if at all to get ahead in the counts.

 

In addition a slider that just rolls up to the middle of the plate is not a get me over slider. It is just a bad slider, a poorly thrown baseball....

[notin]

Even with Eovaldi and Hembree back and in the pen, I still think we need pen help more. Walden is a complete guess at this point. Barnes is in a horrible funk. Brasier has shown signs of life, but is still a huge question mark. Even recent successes like Workman and Brewer are showing signs of inconsistency.

 

I don't really have total confidence in a single pen arm, right now. Not one.

 

While it is true, our 5th starters have been taken from the pen and often go just 2-3 innings, we've gone with 8 relievers all year (rare), actually 9, if you count our 5th starter as a RP'er.

 

With 8 or 9 RP'er, there's room for one more solid pen arm from outside the system, preferably a closer or top set up man:

 

_____ or Eovadi (closer)

Eovaldi or _____ (set-up/closer)

Workman

Barnes

Hembree

Brewer

Brasier

Wright

Velazquez (5th starter)

AAA: Walden/Johnson(IL and out of options)/Taylor

 

But having 9 relievers would bump Hernandez - whose carrying the team - off the roster...

[a700hitter]

How about, say, Travis Lakins for Jason Vargas?

 

Open to other prospects as well...

Vargas? The Mets would jump at a bag of balls for Vargas.

[FredLynn]

Getting a halfway reliable 5th starter would be a plus for the team though-especially where we know Eovaldi is going to the pen.

 

It would be a plus for sure. But not enough for this team to turn it around. Thats not going to be enough. The mediocrity will continue until the current pitching staff does the job that they are capable of doing.

[moonslav59]

But having 9 relievers would bump Hernandez - whose carrying the team - off the roster...

 

No, I meant our 5th starter is really our 9th pen arm. If you count Velazquez as the #5, then we can add a RP'er and keep 8 in the pen with Walden, Taylor and Johnson being in AAA, the IL or traded (Johnson is out of options).

[Kimmi]

Even with Eovaldi and Hembree back and in the pen, I still think we need pen help more. Walden is a complete guess at this point. Barnes is in a horrible funk. Brasier has shown signs of life, but is still a huge question mark. Even recent successes like Workman and Brewer are showing signs of inconsistency.

 

I don't really have total confidence in a single pen arm, right now. Not one.

 

While it is true, our 5th starters have been taken from the pen and often go just 2-3 innings, we've gone with 8 relievers all year (rare), actually 9, if you count our 5th starter as a RP'er.

 

With 8 or 9 RP'er, there's room for one more solid pen arm from outside the system, preferably a closer or top set up man:

 

_____ or Eovadi (closer)

Eovaldi or _____ (set-up/closer)

Workman

Barnes

Hembree

Brewer

Brasier

Wright

Velazquez (5th starter)

AAA: Walden/Johnson(IL and out of options)/Taylor

 

IMO, our pen is pretty much spent right now. They could use any help they can get.

 

I still think the 5th starter spot needs to be addressed, regardless of what Dombrowski does with the pen. Making it a bullpen game isn't going to help the bullpen's situation any.

[notin]

IMO, our pen is pretty much spent right now. They could use any help they can get.

 

I still think the 5th starter spot needs to be addressed, regardless of what Dombrowski does with the pen. Making it a bullpen game isn't going to help the bullpen's situation any.

 

A bullpen game is stupid when your bullpen is your biggest problem...

[Kimmi]

They are reportedly interested in Boyd, Wheeler and Roark.

 

MLB Trade Rumors and Signings

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The 2024 MLB Trade Deadline was July 30 at 6 p.m. ET. - Tracking every Trade Deadline deal

 

I would take a flyer on any of those guys. I'm not sure the Sox have the pieces or the finances to get any of those guys.

[Kimmi]

I would be shocked if JH allows DD to get one of those guys, no matter the cost. None of them are going to fix the current pitching problems. None of them are going to fix the fact that Chris Sale has three wins so far. The talent is there to make a run at a playoff spot. If they don't start playing up to their ability no reasonable external help is going to matter.

 

This is absolutely true, but the Sox still need to address the 5th spot in the rotation. But you are correct, the players that we currently have need to play to their ability. Otherwise, adding a 5th starter will do very little good.

[devildavid]

IMO, our pen is pretty much spent right now. They could use any help they can get.

 

I still think the 5th starter spot needs to be addressed, regardless of what Dombrowski does with the pen. Making it a bullpen game isn't going to help the bullpen's situation any.

 

The help for the bullpen is already on the team. It is the starting pitchers.

[Kimmi]

To get a Boyd or Wheeler we would have to make a better offer than the other teams who are looking for pitching. That may be difficult. I definitely would not trade Chavis.

 

This is what I was thinking. Do we have the pieces to get it done?

 

I would not trade anyone on the current big league team outside of bench players, which would create one whole to fill another.

[Kimmi]

A bullpen game is stupid when your bullpen is your biggest problem...

 

No argument with the logic there, but the BP is a big problem largely because of the rotation.

[Bellhorn04]

The Yankees' bullpen has actually pitched a higher % of their innings (44%) than the Red Sox bullpen has (43%).

[TylerD]

So much talking in this thread. Our bullpen sucks ass. Discussion should be on who we should get. And Eovaldi to hurry his ass up.

[notin]

No argument with the logic there, but the BP is a big problem largely because of the rotation.

 

... which is why I think this team needs another starter to take pressure off the bullpen...

[notin]

Vargas? The Mets would jump at a bag of balls for Vargas.

 

And the Sox are probably limited to players with that type of availability.

 

The fear is giving away the next Ty Buttrey, of course...

[moonslav59]

And the Sox are probably limited to players with that type of availability.

 

The fear is giving away the next Ty Buttrey, of course...

 

Addison Reed did not cost a Ty Buttrey.

 

While Beeks has looked good after the trade, not many cared when we sent him packing to get Eovaldi.

 

I think we can get 1-2 solid pitchers- not great for scraps that may or may not turn into Beeks or Buttrey.

[notin]

Addison Reed did not cost a Ty Buttrey.

 

While Beeks has looked good after the trade, not many cared when we sent him packing to get Eovaldi.

 

I think we can get 1-2 solid pitchers- not great for scraps that may or may not turn into Beeks or Buttrey.

 

No one said Addison Reed did.

 

The bottom line was the Sox acquired Kinsler for a player who, 1 year later, has 1.2 fWAR at the all star break while fulfilling a role the team needs.

 

Certainly this type of trade chip is on their minds...

[moonslav59]

No one said Addison Reed did.

 

The bottom line was the Sox acquired Kinsler for a player who, 1 year later, has 1.2 fWAR at the all star break while fulfilling a role the team needs.

 

Certainly this type of trade chip is on their minds...

 

Yes, I get it, but my point is we should be able to get 1-2 decent pitchers without giving up Casas, Dalebec, Duran, Mata, Chatham, DHern, Groome, Houk or Flores.

[jacksonianmarch]

The only way you get a decent player without giving up those guys is if you absorb salary, which takes you over the final limit

[notin]

Yes, I get it, but my point is we should be able to get 1-2 decent pitchers without giving up Casas, Dalebec, Duran, Mata, Chatham, DHern, Groome, Houk or Flores.

 

There are probably a few names on that list it won’t hurt to give up.

 

Dalbec is the most likely trade bait, as the success stories of Devers and Chavis have him blocked in the immediate future..,

[moonslav59]

There are probably a few names on that list it won’t hurt to give up.

 

Dalbec is the most likely trade bait, as the success stories of Devers and Chavis have him blocked in the immediate future..,

 

Not really, Moreland, Pearce, Nunez and Holt are all free agents after 2019.

 

We'll need to fill 2B (Chavis & Marco/Chatham) and 1B (Dalbec & Chavis)

 

I'm fine with trading Dalbec, if we can get a much better player than by trading someone like Shawaryn, but I don't think it's a clear move.

 

I'm not sure we want a line-up with 2 high K guys like Chavis & Dalbec, but our budget will be tight again next year, and 1B/2B is a big area where we can cut major expenses and maybe not lose any ground.

[OH FOY]

Kid like Dalbec has been scouted by many teams already, if he was anything that was worth giving other Players for, we would know about it. Too many swing and misses.

[notin]

Kid like Dalbec has been scouted by many teams already, if he was anything that was worth giving other Players for, we would know about it. Too many swing and misses.

 

How would we know about it?

 

He's not going to get Stroman back. But I think he can get something helpful.. Shane Greene, for example...

[jacksonianmarch]

Dalbec would be piece #2 for Shane Greene. You need to send a headliner. The issue for the sox getting Greene is the price will be high with the second year of control attached. Greene has been lights out this year. His stuff has always been great. His K rate has always been great. He has lowered his walk rate this year, his strand rate is enormous and his BABIP is way down. Teams likely aren't buying his success as anything more than a fluke yet Detroit is rightly going to hold out for a king's ransom with the 2020 arb year as the sticking point. Greene has been a 3.95-4.25xFIP pitcher 4 years running, yet his ERA's have bounced between 1.09 and 5.82.

 

The one thing that these predictors have trouble with are guys who get high GB rates. Greene has used his cutter 5% more this year and his average FB has dropped over 1mph, yet his GB rate has gone up 15%. If he is moved this deadline, he is gonna go for a king's ransom. Dalbec straight up aint gonna cut it

[moonslav59]

Dalbec would be piece #2 for Shane Greene. You need to send a headliner. The issue for the sox getting Greene is the price will be high with the second year of control attached. Greene has been lights out this year. His stuff has always been great. His K rate has always been great. He has lowered his walk rate this year, his strand rate is enormous and his BABIP is way down. Teams likely aren't buying his success as anything more than a fluke yet Detroit is rightly going to hold out for a king's ransom with the 2020 arb year as the sticking point. Greene has been a 3.95-4.25xFIP pitcher 4 years running, yet his ERA's have bounced between 1.09 and 5.82.

 

The one thing that these predictors have trouble with are guys who get high GB rates. Greene has used his cutter 5% more this year and his average FB has dropped over 1mph, yet his GB rate has gone up 15%. If he is moved this deadline, he is gonna go for a king's ransom. Dalbec straight up aint gonna cut it

 

I think you will be surprised how little some very good pitchers get in return via summer trades.

 

We'll see.

 

So far, this year (and last summer, too) the returns on trade have been very low.

[notin]

Dalbec would be piece #2 for Shane Greene. You need to send a headliner. The issue for the sox getting Greene is the price will be high with the second year of control attached. Greene has been lights out this year. His stuff has always been great. His K rate has always been great. He has lowered his walk rate this year, his strand rate is enormous and his BABIP is way down. Teams likely aren't buying his success as anything more than a fluke yet Detroit is rightly going to hold out for a king's ransom with the 2020 arb year as the sticking point. Greene has been a 3.95-4.25xFIP pitcher 4 years running, yet his ERA's have bounced between 1.09 and 5.82.

 

The one thing that these predictors have trouble with are guys who get high GB rates. Greene has used his cutter 5% more this year and his average FB has dropped over 1mph, yet his GB rate has gone up 15%. If he is moved this deadline, he is gonna go for a king's ransom. Dalbec straight up aint gonna cut it

 

It’s going to depend on who else is interested. From an FIP standpoint, he’s not much better than Addison Reed, who the Sox got for two A ball arms who were unranked in a weak farm system. A MLB-adjacent 3b who is already employing a launch ball swing is considerably more valuable to another team than that package was.

 

They could hold out for a King’s Ransom, much like we were told Seattle would for Encarnacion. But ultimately they’ll take the best offer they get, which may or may not be better. And while they don’t have to deal him, he’s having a career year now, and isnt likely to command as much after the season or next July...

[Kimmi]

The Yankees' bullpen has actually pitched a higher % of their innings (44%) than the Red Sox bullpen has (43%).

 

Fair point. However, the Yankees' bullpen was built to be their strength, to pick up a mediocre rotation. With the Sox, it's the other way around.

 

The Sox bullpen is worn out, and there is not enough depth to it.

[Kimmi]

... which is why I think this team needs another starter to take pressure off the bullpen...

 

100% agree.

[jacksonianmarch]

The pen usage is a little bit deceiving since we have 8 games started with an opener between injuries to CC, Paxton and German. Each of those openers was followed by a “bulk” guy who was technically the starter going 3-5 innings each time.