The Pen

[jung]

If the other pitchers are not capable of getting a hold as you say, getting a closer won’t help...

 

Not necessarily true. You have a few innings to make up for a deficit before the 9th inning and you have those innings against the other team's pen. In most cases the opponent pen sucks as bad as ours does. No innings left after the 9th unless tied and going into extras.

[notin]

Not necessarily true. You have a few innings to make up for a deficit before the 9th inning and you have those innings against the other team's pen. In most cases the opponent pen sucks as bad as ours does. No innings left after the 9th unless tied and going into extras.

 

So the Sox have no pitchers capable of holding a lead, and the solution is a closer (for the 4 ninth inning leads the team hast lost this year) and relying on the other team’s bullpen to suck?

[jung]

So the Sox have no pitchers capable of holding a lead, and the solution is a closer (for the 4 ninth inning leads the team hast lost this year) and relying on the other team’s bullpen to suck?

 

Do you have another practical solution? Are they going to replace the entire pen? NOPE. Do we appear to have a decent enough offense to catch teams that beat up on our pen? YUP. If you leave the ninth inning with a lead have you won the game or not? If you leave the ninth inning behind have you lost the game or not?

 

Now of course the Sox could just pack it in, call it a season and sell at the deadline. That is a solution of a sort....could be an entirely practical solution. We have fourteen games coming up with the Rays and Yankees right smack in the middle of 34 games in 34 days. They might not survive that the way they have played so far this year.

Edited July 9, 2019 by jung

[notin]

Do you have another practical solution? Are they going to replace the entire pen? NOPE. Do we appear to have a decent enough offense to catch teams that beat up on our pen? YUP. If you leave the ninth inning with a lead have you won the game or not? If you leave the ninth inning behind have you lost the game or not?

 

Now of course the Sox could just pack it in, call it a season and sell at the deadline. That is a solution of a sort....could be an entirely practical solution. We have fourteen games coming up with the Rays and Yankees right smack in the middle of 34 games in 34 days. They might not survive that the way they have played so far this year.

 

The most practical solution is to use the two internal pitchers coming off injury in the bullpen in Eovaldi and Wright, to get more IP from the starters, and to stop using the back end of the bullpen in the rotation.

 

It doesn’t look like either Wright or Eovaldi are going to be capable of handling starter duty this year anyway, so the bullpen is the best and really only option for them. Both can certainly be very effective pitchers picking up about maybe 60-80 IP combined in relief. This would mitigate th need for using the largely questionable Brasier in high leverage situations and mitigate using Barnes in innings only started by the better hitters in each lineup as well as in consecutive games.

 

But the onus of improvement needs to rest with the rotation. If this rotation doesn’t do their job, then the entire bullpen would need an overhaul top to bottoms for multiple reasons.

 

If Eovaldi closes, I’m not worried. Closers largely come in for clean ninth inning work nowadays. Eovaldi is an established veteran MLB pitcher with some excellent pitches who should be able to give the Sox 1 IP without issue. The biggest fear with flame-throwing closers is always overthrowing themselves into injury, which Eovaldi has done a few times in his career, but always as a starter.

 

Wright has some issues, but also has a better track record for success than the entire Sox pen already and at the very least represents a solid change of pace.

 

But getting a fifth starter is paramount here as opposed to using the bullpen to handle all 9 IP every fifth day after 4 straight games of pitching 3-4 IP. That is just begging for issues in August...

[Kimmi]

Not at the Closer it won't. We don't have a Closer. One is not going to emerge. Yes it will take pressure off of the rest of the pen because they won't be called upon for so many innings 6-8. Does not do a damned thing for the 9th and we still don't have someone that can even reliably close. These bums cannot even Hold. So what would make us think that there is suddenly a Closer in the Bucket-o-Fried chicken bums.

 

I think it will take pressure off of the entire pen. For one, hopefully there would be fewer 1-2 run games and more games with bigger leads. Secondly, Cora would be able to use the pen the way he wants to, and not have to overuse them out of necessity. The pen is tired, which is part of the reason for their less than stellar performance lately.

[Noles_1335]

Are any of these trade rumors going to pan out. I've seen word of us in talks with teams such as the O's, Marlins, KC, Det, Mets, some of the names being thrown around seem as if we might have to really dig deep to make an offer work out. I mean I would not mind acquiring Mancini to play 1st but what would we have to give up for that. Even getting Wheeler, we would have to send something serious their way to make that happen.... what do you guys realistically want to happen or hell, who gives us the best options to try and get back into the postseason.

[oldtimer]

Are any of these trade rumors going to pan out. I've seen word of us in talks with teams such as the O's, Marlins, KC, Det, Mets, some of the names being thrown around seem as if we might have to really dig deep to make an offer work out. I mean I would not mind acquiring Mancini to play 1st but what would we have to give up for that. Even getting Wheeler, we would have to send something serious their way to make that happen.... what do you guys realistically want to happen or hell, who gives us the best options to try and get back into the postseason.

 

My thinking has been as a minimalist for some time now. It doesn't appear our starters are good enough to deliver us with a chance of going far, even if we get a wild card. We shall soon see, with games against good teams and rivals coming up. Going after a rental and giving away what remains of our best prospects or even a ML player under those circumstances makes no sense. If we could get a starter that would help us in 2020, then I would be interested. In the case of the pen, I am all for spending up to the limit to get some help.

 

We may soon be looking at reforming the team for 2020 and beyond. I can see letting go of weak players and trying to improve at all postions.

[jung]

The most practical solution is to use the two internal pitchers coming off injury in the bullpen in Eovaldi and Wright, to get more IP from the starters, and to stop using the back end of the bullpen in the rotation.

 

It doesn’t look like either Wright or Eovaldi are going to be capable of handling starter duty this year anyway, so the bullpen is the best and really only option for them. Both can certainly be very effective pitchers picking up about maybe 60-80 IP combined in relief. This would mitigate th need for using the largely questionable Brasier in high leverage situations and mitigate using Barnes in innings only started by the better hitters in each lineup as well as in consecutive games.

 

But the onus of improvement needs to rest with the rotation. If this rotation doesn’t do their job, then the entire bullpen would need an overhaul top to bottoms for multiple reasons.

 

If Eovaldi closes, I’m not worried. Closers largely come in for clean ninth inning work nowadays. Eovaldi is an established veteran MLB pitcher with some excellent pitches who should be able to give the Sox 1 IP without issue. The biggest fear with flame-throwing closers is always overthrowing themselves into injury, which Eovaldi has done a few times in his career, but always as a starter.

 

Wright has some issues, but also has a better track record for success than the entire Sox pen already and at the very least represents a solid change of pace.

 

But getting a fifth starter is paramount here as opposed to using the bullpen to handle all 9 IP every fifth day after 4 straight games of pitching 3-4 IP. That is just begging for issues in August...

 

At what level of expectation? For 90 games the IP/G by starters in the AL is led by Houston at 5.67 innings per start. The Sox sit at 5.17 IP/G by our starters. Neither team uses an "opener" that I am aware of, though both have had bullpen games. Unfortunately, you can barely tell the dif any longer between a bullpen game and a "regular" rotation game. If the best this league has to offer is still less than 6 innings per start where do we think we are actually going with better rotation performance over the remaining 72 games?

 

Do we think we are going to go flying past 6 innings per start per game? I don't think so. Nobody but nobody in either league is exceeding 6 innings per start as an average including the NL. As I have already stated maybe in this thread maybe in others, the NL has more pitchers that actually challenge hitters which is a thing of the past in the AL. The Nats are averaging 5.93 In/G per start and the Dodgers are right on the same pace at 5.82 In/G per start.

 

5 of the top 7 teams in In/G per starter are NL teams. Surely the lack of a DH contributes to that difference to some extent but clearly NL pitchers challenge hitters more than AL pitchers do.

 

I have no problem with the Sox pursuing Wheeler. But he is simply Eovaldi II. Nate challenges hitters now more than any Sox starter since Sale can't throw his Slider worth squat. I appreciate that in both Wheeler and in Nate because I am so sick and tired of watching Sox starters not challenge one damned hitter. I don't appreciate how often both leave the ball over the middle of the plate. I like that they challenge. I just wish they would challenge with more success. I don't think we will appreciate how often Nate will leave the ball in the middle of the plate as a closer nor do I think we will appreciate his tendency to need to get into a groove off the mound before he finds the plate.

 

Plus Nate is on the record NOT WANTING TO CLOSE. Yet the Sox already have an investment in him. What the f*** are they doing asking Nate to close?

 

Want to get Wheeler...fine...not even sure we have the assets to get Wheeler, never mind better than Wheeler. But Wheeler is not big money. Get a Closer to go with him or at least a Closer that stands a chance at closing better than anything we can toss out there including Nate. That should also not be a major investment.

 

They could of course wait to see where they are after the 14 games with the Yankmees and Rays which will put them most of the way through 34 straight games in 34 straight days. The Sox could be dead about half way through those 34 games. In fact, if they play them the way they have played the first 90, they will be dead at that point.

Edited July 9, 2019 by jung

[notin]

I think they’re asking Nate to close because they don’t think he can handle a starter workload this season.

 

His desire not to close was possibly a negotiation ploy. While he’s paid well as a starter, his salary is currently among the highest for closers. Any team negotiating to use him in that role probably doesn’t go so high. In fact, given the experienced closers on the market, it’s possible some of his appeal as a closer was to pay him less. Otherwise why pursue Eovaldi as a closer when Ottavino, Britton, Robertson, etc. we’re all still available?

[jung]

I think they’re asking Nate to close because they don’t think he can handle a starter workload this season.

 

His desire not to close was possibly a negotiation ploy. While he’s paid well as a starter, his salary is currently among the highest for closers. Any team negotiating to use him in that role probably doesn’t go so high. In fact, given the experienced closers on the market, it’s possible some of his appeal as a closer was to pay him less. Otherwise why pursue Eovaldi as a closer when Ottavino, Britton, Robertson, etc. we’re all still available?

 

Closing saves Nate's arm...how so? He has no history of pitching under high stress late in multiple games in a row...NONE....NADA. Sending him to the pen to allow him to work back into shape makes sense. Sending him out to close now, tomorrow, next week, next month, makes no sense at all.

 

In fact, now I am back to where I was. Don't get Wheeler unless the Mets give him away. Work Nate in the pen until he can work his arm back into shape and GET A CLOSER.

Edited July 9, 2019 by jung

[jacksonianmarch]

The idea that saving his arm by throwing him into a role he has never done is fallacy. There are very few good starters who convert into lock down closers. Also, Eovaldi doesn't have the stuff to be a great closer. Yes, he throws hard. Yes he has a slider and a cutter. But he doesn't miss bats. Your best closers, historically, have the ability to strike people out and/or limit the longball by keeping the ball on the ground. Eovaldi does neither. I have a feeling he is not going to be as effective as you all think

 

Now, he might end up a serviceable reliever. But you need a lock down closer to push guys back into familiar roles. Asking Nate to do that right out of the IL is not realistic

[notin]

The idea that saving his arm by throwing him into a role he has never done is fallacy. There are very few good starters who convert into lock down closers. Also, Eovaldi doesn't have the stuff to be a great closer. Yes, he throws hard. Yes he has a slider and a cutter. But he doesn't miss bats. Your best closers, historically, have the ability to strike people out and/or limit the longball by keeping the ball on the ground. Eovaldi does neither. I have a feeling he is not going to be as effective as you all think

 

Now, he might end up a serviceable reliever. But you need a lock down closer to push guys back into familiar roles. Asking Nate to do that right out of the IL is not realistic

 

Actually Eovaldi’s career strike out rates and groundball percentage make him comparable to Roberto Hernandez, who did have over 300 career saves.

 

His career K/9 is better than about 9 or so of the top 30 save pitchers since 1990 and his groundball rates are better than about 2/3 of them.

 

I’d rather he start and the Sox get bullpen help, but people with access to his medical records and knowledge of his recovery progress seem to feel differently about his ability to do so...

[dgalehouse]

I think Eovaldi is the best choice for the closer's job . Nothing is guaranteed, but he looks like the best bet . Maybe he will be able to return to the rotation at some point. However , when you look at his career record as a starter , it does not seem to warrant the contract he received. People went a little overboard after his World Series performance.

[jung]

I think Eovaldi is the best choice for the closer's job . Nothing is guaranteed, but he looks like the best bet . Maybe he will be able to return to the rotation at some point. However , when you look at his career record as a starter , it does not seem to warrant the contract he received. People went a little overboard after his World Series performance.

 

So on what planet should Nate be a $17M Closer with no real experience in the role? We are looking more like Celtics Green Teamers every day.

[notin]

I think Eovaldi is the best choice for the closer's job . Nothing is guaranteed, but he looks like the best bet . Maybe he will be able to return to the rotation at some point. However , when you look at his career record as a starter , it does not seem to warrant the contract he received. People went a little overboard after his World Series performance.

 

And his age, being just 28 at the time. He doesn’t get that deal at 31...

[dgalehouse]

So on what planet should Nate be a $17M Closer with no real experience in the role? We are looking more like Celtics Green Teamers every day.

 

That would be the planet Earth . His salary is what it is . Nothing you can do about it now . Try to get the best use you can from him for the rest of the season . We need a closer . He seems like a guy who could do it . It should be easier to pick up a number five starter than a good closer .

[jung]

That would be the planet Earth . His salary is what it is . Nothing you can do about it now . Try to get the best use you can from him for the rest of the season . We need a closer . He seems like a guy who could do it . It should be easier to pick up a number five starter than a good closer .

 

Based on what is Nate to be considered a "good closer" at this point....what record of closing does he have? I decent starter...I can buy that one....a good closer...sorry not buying.

[notin]

Based on what is Nate to be considered a "good closer" at this point....what record of closing does he have? I decent starter...I can buy that one....a good closer...sorry not buying.

 

Closing track records are overrated. The Mets loaded up this off-season on pitchers with track records as “proven closers” and their bullpen is worse than ours.

 

With Eovaldi, it will come down to his health. If he’s not healthy enough to start but deemed healthy enough to close, it might actually work out. But that does feel like a narrow window of health...

[dgalehouse]

Based on what is Nate to be considered a "good closer" at this point....what record of closing does he have? I decent starter...I can buy that one....a good closer...sorry not buying.

 

Okay , Jung . I'll put you down as not buying it .

[jung]

Actually Eovaldi’s career strike out rates and groundball percentage make him comparable to Roberto Hernandez, who did have over 300 career saves.

 

His career K/9 is better than about 9 or so of the top 30 save pitchers since 1990 and his groundball rates are better than about 2/3 of them.

 

I’d rather he start and the Sox get bullpen help, but people with access to his medical records and knowledge of his recovery progress seem to feel differently about his ability to do so...

 

With all due respect that is an absurd comparison. You cannot compare career stats from a pitcher that accumulated those stats pitching on average of 1.06 innings per appearance with a guy that has accumulated his career stats pitching 5.44 innings per appearance. Its not the same thing....its not nearly the same thing.

 

In the first place Nate has done NOTHING in his career that suggests he can pitch single innings in his leverage in multiple games per week....NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing that would suggest that would "save his arm" either.

Edited July 9, 2019 by jung

[OH FOY]

I wonder if LaRussa had something to do with Eovaldi moving to a closer's role. He did it with Eckersley, or at least it started that way, to move him to BP. Wonder if he see similarities there.

[Kimmi]

I think Eovaldi is the best choice for the closer's job . Nothing is guaranteed, but he looks like the best bet . Maybe he will be able to return to the rotation at some point. However , when you look at his career record as a starter , it does not seem to warrant the contract he received. People went a little overboard after his World Series performance.

 

FTR, I read today that save % is the lowest that it's been over the last 10 years. I thought you would appreciate that.

[OH FOY]

Funny thing about Eck, when he was Traded to the Cubs, his fastball velocity was down, very easy starter to hit against. When the A's put him in the Closers role, he was throwing as hard and probably harder, then when he was starting here. All he needed to do was let it go for 1 inning. Had no problem going there everyday and Closing too, seemed like he got stronger, throwing more in the BP.

Had the Starters strength.

1 year he threw 80 innings, had 11 walks, and 6 of those were intentional. Had 51 saves. He was 37 years old.

Edited July 9, 2019 by OH FOY!

[jung]

Funny thing about Eck, when he was Traded to the Cubs, his fastball velocity was down, very easy starter to hit against. When the A's put him in the Closers role, he was throwing as hard and probably harder, then when he was starting here. All he needed to do was let it go for 1 inning. Had no problem going there everyday and Closing too, seemed like he got stronger, throwing more in the BP.

Had the Starters strength.

1 year he threw 80 innings, had 11 walks, and 6 of those were intentional. Had 51 saves. He was 37 years old.

 

Yup. never missed a beat...no multiple injuries and surgeries either. Had awesome command of all his pitches as well. Funny how there are not many guys pitching today that we will ever say either about.... never missed a beat, no lost seasons, awesome command. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Nate.

[OH FOY]

Had arm problems early in his career in Cleveland. When he was with us he had a tired arm, followed him to Chicago. If he was hitting 88, it was amazing as a Starter. He was done as a Starter.

He was throwing much harder for Oakland, much. LaRussa saved his career.

Edited July 9, 2019 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

Funny thing about this whole mess is we Trade Jalen Beeks for Eovaldi, and he's doing a nice job. We Trade Ty Buttrey, for Kinsler, and he's doing a nice job for the Angels.

Maybe best thing is DD better go for a Starter. His track record for Relievers are killing the Sox. Whoever we Trade, is almost certainly going to have a nice season or seasons for his next team.

[jung]

Had arm problems early in his career in Cleveland. When he was with us he had a tired arm, followed him to Chicago. If he was hitting 88, it was amazing as a Starter. He was done as a Starter.

He was throwing much harder for Oakland, much. LaRussa saved his career.

 

A far cry from multiple TJ's and floating bone chips in the elbow. Nate is a fragile egg and taking him out of his comfort zone is simply cement headed particularly now that we are on the hook for $17M per. Sending him to the pen to get his arm back in shape is one thing. Keeping Nate there or worse, putting him in the Closer role is sheer lunacy.

[FredLynn]

With all due respect that is an absurd comparison. You cannot compare career stats from a pitcher that accumulated those stats pitching on average of 1.06 innings per appearance with a guy that has accumulated his career stats pitching 5.44 innings per appearance. Its not the same thing....its not nearly the same thing.

 

In the first place Nate has done NOTHING in his career that suggests he can pitch single innings in his leverage in multiple games per week....NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing that would suggest that would "save his arm" either.

 

Got a better idea? The Sox are desperate now. Do you want Barnes or Brasier closing? Wright? Who else? They are not going to spend on a quality RP, and I don't blame them. The talent is there to make the playoffs. Its up to the guys on the roster to start pitching the way they are capable of.

[OH FOY]

Phone call by the Boston Red Sox to GM of the Mets.

 

Brrrrriinnngggggg!

"Hi this Dave Dombrowski of the Boston Red Sox, we like to discuss a deal that will send Zach Wheeler to us.

GM of the Mets...." Who you willing to give to us"?

DD .."We'll give you...…"

Mets GM, 'WE'LL TAKE HIM!"

[jung]

Got a better idea? The Sox are desperate now. Do you want Barnes or Brasier closing? Wright? Who else? They are not going to spend on a quality RP, and I don't blame them. The talent is there to make the playoffs. Its up to the guys on the roster to start pitching the way they are capable of.

 

Get a Closer...even a slightly over the hill Closer would be better than the trash they have closing now or just throwing Nate to the wolves. Throwing Nate in the Closer role and bringing in Wheeler makes 0 sense. Wheeler is just Nate II probably slightly worse. They are virtually the same pitchers. Get somebody that has closed successfully. He does not have to be currently great at Closer to beat the trash we throw out there to close now and won't have to be great to beat Nate in that role.

 

Frankly I don't think it much matters what they do. The Wheelers of the world are not likely to save this team from itself. JD is making noise about wanting a more permanent deal at more money. Mookie has been distracted all year by his contract issues. Poor baby, $20M is such a burden for him to carry.

 

This entire team, certainly the members of it other than X, Rafi, Vaz and Price has whaaaaaaaaaa-ed its way through 90 games and will likely whaaaaaaaa its way out the year.