The Pen

[FredLynn]

Get a Closer...even a slightly over the hill Closer would be better than the trash they have closing now or just throwing Nate to the wolves. Throwing Nate in the Closer role and bringing in Wheeler makes 0 sense. Wheeler is just Nate II probably slightly worse. They are virtually the same pitchers. Get somebody that has closed successfully. He does not have to be currently great at Closer to beat the trash we throw out there to close now and won't have to be great to beat Nate in that role.

 

Frankly I don't think it much matters what they do. The Wheelers of the world are not likely to save this team from itself. JD is making noise about wanting a more permanent deal at more money. Mookie has been distracted all year by his contract issues. Poor baby, $20M is such a burden for him to carry.

 

This entire team, certainly the members of it other than X, Rafi, Vaz and Price has whaaaaaaaaaa-ed its way through 90 games and will likely whaaaaaaaa its way out the year.

 

I think we need to take a leap of faith here and believe DD when he says that they are not going to add much salary. To get a quality closer, one better than the stiffs we now have closing, it costs money. Henry is looking at this team and saying "wait a minute-these guys are good enough to make the playoffs!"-and he is right. The answer isn't spending more money, its getting our pitchers to pitch. Chris Sale is 3-8; Porcello has an ERA well over 5; ERod is nearly at 5. And we don't even have a #5 SP right now, not until Johnson gets back. Compare that to what these guys did last year. They HAVE the talent. They just need to do their jobs. A closer isn't going to help much if our SPs keep sucking. We have actually only lost four games in save situations in the ninth inning this year, I believe. No, our pen isn't very good either, but they get put in a tough situation way too often because our SPs get shellacked.

[jung]

I said before the season started that they should have brought in a decent, not necessarily good, certainly not great (if they did not want to spend the money) Closer because they were putting too much burden on guys that had never closed. They should have brought in a guy that could have helped them understand how to prepare for the 9th inning and how to pitch in the 9th inning...could have led them by example. BUT NO......lets just toss the Bucket-o-Fried Chicken Bums at the Closer role. "Something is bound to stick". Hasn't stuck yet and Nate is simply the next experiment, the next thrown at the wall hope.

 

I don't have a problem with Wheeler though I am not convinced we can get even him.....EVEN HIM and with Nate we are setting ourselves up to put him on the rack and ultimately back up on the shelf now at $17M per. If they were going to do this with him, they never should have brought him back. Starting.. fine, selected pen duty.... fine, closing not fine as closers have to be able to go on back to back and sometimes back to back to back days. Seriously doubt Nate's arm will stand up to that and I don't buy the argument that Nate had some ulterior motive in flat out saying HE DOES NOT WANT TO CLOSE. Don't buy it. We are just making excuses for this mess like a bunch of Celtics Green-teamers.

[notin]

I said before the season started that they should have brought in a decent, not necessarily good, certainly not great (if they did not want to spend the money) Closer because they were putting too much burden on guys that had never closed. They should have brought in a guy that could have helped them understand how to prepare for the 9th inning and how to pitch in the 9th inning...could have led them by example. BUT NO......lets just toss the Bucket-o-Fried Chicken Bums at the Closer role. "Something is bound to stick". Hasn't stuck yet and Nate is simply the next experiment, the next thrown at the wall hope.

 

I don't have a problem with Wheeler though I am not convinced we can get even him.....EVEN HIM and with Nate we are setting ourselves up to put him on the rack and ultimately back up on the shelf now at $17M per. If they were going to do this with him, they never should have brought him back. Starting.. fine, selected pen duty.... fine, closing not fine as closers have to be able to go on back to back and sometimes back to back to back days. Seriously doubt Nate's arm will stand up to that and I don't buy the argument that Nate had some ulterior motive in flat out saying HE DOES NOT WANT TO CLOSE. Don't buy it. We are just making excuses for this mess like a bunch of Celtics Green-teamers.

 

 

Well if he doesn’t want to do it, he isn’t putting up nearly the same fight you are.

 

And did he ever “flat out” say he doesn’t want to close? Best I can find is an article saying (not quoting) his preference during free agency was to start, which isn’t really the same thing.

 

I have to think the Sox discussed this option with him and aren’t simply forcing him into the role...

[jacksonianmarch]

Nate is a good teammate and a good soldier. He proved that last year in the playoffs before his payday. If Cora asks him to jump, he's gonna ask how high.

[notin]

Nate is a good teammate and a good soldier. He proved that last year in the playoffs before his payday. If Cora asks him to jump, he's gonna ask how high.

 

And he probably prefers to start.

 

But I don’t think he ever “flat out” said he doesn’t want to close, which would contradict exactly what you said.

 

Now MLBTR did say he told the Phillies he prefers to start, so those negotiations went nowhere.

 

Now what he did flat out say is he wanted either Boston or Houston (his hometown). As neither asked him about closing at the time, we don’t really know what he would have said. (In fact, Houston didn’t talk to him at all, much to his disappointment.)

[jacksonianmarch]

I never said Nate doesn't want to close. I don't think Nate is going to be an effective closer due to his lack of swing and miss stuff and lack of health

[notin]

I never said Nate doesn't want to close. I don't think Nate is going to be an effective closer due to his lack of swing and miss stuff and lack of health

 

I have health concerns, but then I’ve had them about Eovaldi for, oh, I don’t know. Just over 11 months now, I guess...

[notin]

And in case anyone cares or somehow didysee it coming, Tyler Thornburg rejected his minor league assignment. The next step is he will now get dumped faster and harder than me by that Providence College cheerleader all those years ago, thrusting him into a virtual tornado of despair and alcoholism-fueled loneliness.

 

Ok maybe that last part was just me...

[moonslav59]

Funny thing about this whole mess is we Trade Jalen Beeks for Eovaldi, and he's doing a nice job. We Trade Ty Buttrey, for Kinsler, and he's doing a nice job for the Angels.

Maybe best thing is DD better go for a Starter. His track record for Relievers are killing the Sox. Whoever we Trade, is almost certainly going to have a nice season or seasons for his next team.

 

Kinsler & Eovaldi did help us win a ring, so there's that, but I get your point.

 

I don't think many here cared much about losing Beeks. I do remember some wondering about Buttrey, and why we never gave him a shot with us.

 

Does anyone think Shawaryn is the next Beeks or Houk is the next Buttrey?

 

 

[moonslav59]

And in case anyone cares or somehow didysee it coming, Tyler Thornburg rejected his minor league assignment. The next step is he will now get dumped faster and harder than me by that Providence College cheerleader all those years ago, thrusting him into a virtual tornado of despair and alcoholism-fueled loneliness.

 

Ok maybe that last part was just me...

 

...until the big bidding begins on his services by the 20 contenders in MLB currently.

[jung]

And he probably prefers to start.

 

But I don’t think he ever “flat out” said he doesn’t want to close, which would contradict exactly what you said.

 

Now MLBTR did say he told the Phillies he prefers to start, so those negotiations went nowhere.

 

Now what he did flat out say is he wanted either Boston or Houston (his hometown). As neither asked him about closing at the time, we don’t really know what he would have said. (In fact, Houston didn’t talk to him at all, much to his disappointment.)

 

You would have expected him to come out and say that he does not want to close? I would not have. In fact, I would prefer to start is more than I would have recommended he say. What he says is simply an indication of what he thinks his arm can handle. Its not more than that. But its not less than that EITHER!

 

There is actually something of a bonus to starters in the whole "quality start" nonsense. Notice across MLB they are now struggling to make 6 innings. We have created an interim step in what would have been considered a successful start and human nature has taken over as it usually does in all things. So now, they can argue that they are doing well to make six innings and SON OF A GUN, they now struggle to make 6 innings. Who would have thunk it!

 

So if I am a pitcher with multiple TJ's and a cranky elbow with bone chips floating around in it, give me a six inning stint once per week with a throwing day tossed in between and $17M clams to do it, and I am happy as a clam.

 

The pitchers did not create this mess. They are just responding to it. However all you have to do is watch the games to see even the top starters in MLB now pacing themselves to 6 innings. For those that don't know what a pitcher pacing himself to 6 innings looks like, your mileage may vary.

Edited July 10, 2019 by jung

[OH FOY]

Sox need a 5th Starter, schedule dictates it.

[jung]

Sox need a 5th Starter, schedule dictates it.

 

Happy to see them get one as long as they get a Closer to boot.

[OH FOY]

I bet they know more about Eovaldi then we know. I bet he's done for the year. If he cant go 1 inning, and has arm problems, I bet he's not going to contribute at all this season.

[Bellhorn04]

I bet they know more about Eovaldi then we know. I bet he's done for the year. If he cant go 1 inning, and has arm problems, I bet he's not going to contribute at all this season.

 

I agree with the first sentence, but I see no reason to think he's not going to come back and pitch. The recent reports are all positive. If he wasn't progressing I think we'd know it.

[OH FOY]

Maybe that is why they want only 1 inning from him. And go from there. Starting him and throwing maybe 50-60 pitches maybe might damage him more. I'm sure if he does closes his first appearance they wont throw him out the next night, they will keep an eye on this. Had no closer all year, 1 day off, maybe 2 shouldn't hurt him. At least they will know short term how his arm is. Edited July 10, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Noles_1335]

maybe a stupid question here.... when, and we all hope its when Pedey announces his retirement, does that come straight off the books and free us up some space to chase another starter or a suitable replacement in 2020. If he tries to make another comeback this will be a moot point

[kenmeister]

Kinsler & Eovaldi did help us win a ring, so there's that, but I get your point.

 

I don't think many here cared much about losing Beeks. I do remember some wondering about Buttrey, and why we never gave him a shot with us.

 

Does anyone think Shawaryn is the next Beeks or Houk is the next Buttrey?

 

 

 

To be fair I was upset at the time about the Beeks for Eovaldi trade, but Eovaldi quickly won me over. And then when we signed him for 4 years, I was excited further. So far this season hasn't worked out. I'm hopeful the next 3 will be better.

[notin]

You would have expected him to come out and say that he does not want to close? I would not have. In fact, I would prefer to start is more than I would have recommended he say. What he says is simply an indication of what he thinks his arm can handle. Its not more than that. But its not less than that EITHER!

 

There is actually something of a bonus to starters in the whole "quality start" nonsense. Notice across MLB they are now struggling to make 6 innings. We have created an interim step in what would have been considered a successful start and human nature has taken over as it usually does in all things. So now, they can argue that they are doing well to make six innings and SON OF A GUN, they now struggle to make 6 innings. Who would have thunk it!

 

So if I am a pitcher with multiple TJ's and a cranky elbow with bone chips floating around in it, give me a six inning stint once per week with a throwing day tossed in between and $17M clams to do it, and I am happy as a clam.

 

The pitchers did not create this mess. They are just responding to it. However all you have to do is watch the games to see even the top starters in MLB now pacing themselves to 6 innings. For those that don't know what a pitcher pacing himself to 6 innings looks like, your mileage may vary.

 

 

Dude, you are desperately fighting to put words into Eovaldi’s mouth. As far as anyone can tell, he’s never publicly said he doesn’t want to close. We have seen indications he prefers starting, and made up possible/likely explanations for it (which you immediately discredited for no apparent reason). But I have never seen anything of him blatantly saying he doesn’t want to close. And if I had or you had seen it, I imagine it didn’t escape notice from Dombrowski or Cora.

 

I think EVERYONE would prefer he start. Dombrowski didn’t give him that ludicrous contract to close. While DD is notorious for giving out impressive paydays, even he wouldn’t have made Eovaldi among the highest paid closers in the game when Nathan had no experience in the role. But as he is off recent surgery, it looks like they don’t think he can handle the workload.

 

This might be a situation where the choices are 1) Eovaldi in the bullpen, or 2) Eovaldi out for even longer, possibly all season...

[jung]

Maybe that is why they want only 1 inning from him. And go from there. Starting him and throwing maybe 50-60 pitches maybe might damage him more.

 

You have to get up in the pen and warm up to come in and relieve. There is no way that warming up and pitching one inning two or three days running is easier on the arm than starting, and going 5-6 innings, once a week. It just isn't. Sit out by the pens one time and see how hard they are throwing out there when they are preparing to come into a game and tell me that is not worse for the arm than preparing to throw competitively once per week. Then add the natural intensity of the Close to the whole equation, the need for the Closer to face hitters that know that this stanza is the last chance they have to pull the game out of the fire. Good luck convincing anybody that any of that will be easier on Nate's arm.

[OH FOY]

According to Rob Bradford, Sox are leaning to releasing Thornburg. He refused Minor League assignment.

His career with the Sox 41 games, 42.2 innings, 6.54 ERA. 5,850,000 salary.

Edited July 10, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

You have to get up in the pen and warm up to come in and relieve. There is no way that warming up and pitching one inning two or three days running is easier on the arm than starting, and going 5-6 innings, once a week. It just isn't. Sit out by the pens one time and see how hard they are throwing out there when they are preparing to come into a game and tell me that is not worse for the arm than preparing to throw competitively once per week. Then add the natural intensity of the Close to the whole equation, the need for the Closer to face hitters that know that this stanza is the last chance they have to pull the game out of the fire. Good luck convincing anybody that any of that will be easier on Nate's arm.

 

 

Eovaldi appears to be some sort of freak.

 

Most pitchers who throw 100mph are freakishly tall, like Randy Johnson or Aroldis Chapman or Mat Latos. Eovaldi isn’t. Most starters dial it back and pace themselves. If you watched the All Star game, you probably saw a pitcher or two you normally see throwing 92-93 mph suddenly hitting 98mph routinely. I don’t think Eovaldi dials it back at all. He hits 99mph regularly, but I don’t think he could hit 104-105mph in a short outing. That’s approaching record-breaking velocity for a RHP. But that type of stamina that allows him to throw 98-99 that often is freakish (and probably why he gets injured a lot).

 

In closer role, Eovaldi would probably be looking at 30 one inning appearances the remainder of the season. Counting warmups, that’s probably about 40 pitches per appearance. However, the Sox could limit him further by not using him in 3 run save opportunities, which are fairly low risk. Most pitchers can get 3 outs before giving up 3 runs most of the time. So, say that means 20 save chances. At my estimated pitch count, that means about 800 pitches this year.

 

In the rotation, he would have 14 starts left. At 100 pitches per start, that’s clearly more pitches (1400, obviously). He’d get longer (and more consistent) breaks between outings, but throw a lot more. And as I said, I think he always goes full tilt.

 

I don’t think closing will be easy on his arm by any means. But I do think it will be better off...

[Kimmi]

Eovaldi appears to be some sort of freak.

 

Most pitchers who throw 100mph are freakishly tall, like Randy Johnson or Aroldis Chapman or Mat Latos. Eovaldi isn’t. Most starters dial it back and pace themselves. If you watched the All Star game, you probably saw a pitcher or two you normally see throwing 92-93 mph suddenly hitting 98mph routinely. I don’t think Eovaldi dials it back at all. He hits 99mph regularly, but I don’t think he could hit 104-105mph in a short outing. That’s approaching record-breaking velocity for a RHP. But that type of stamina that allows him to throw 98-99 that often is freakish (and probably why he gets injured a lot).

 

In closer role, Eovaldi would probably be looking at 30 one inning appearances the remainder of the season. Counting warmups, that’s probably about 40 pitches per appearance. However, the Sox could limit him further by not using him in 3 run save opportunities, which are fairly low risk. Most pitchers can get 3 outs before giving up 3 runs most of the time. So, say that means 20 save chances. At my estimated pitch count, that means about 800 pitches this year.

 

In the rotation, he would have 14 starts left. At 100 pitches per start, that’s clearly more pitches (1400, obviously). He’d get longer (and more consistent) breaks between outings, but throw a lot more. And as I said, I think he always goes full tilt.

 

I don’t think closing will be easy on his arm by any means. But I do think it will be better off...

 

To me, it seems like ramping it up several times a week, sometimes 2-3 days in a row, would be more wear and tear on the arm than pitching once every 5 days, but I honestly don't know.

 

That said, it seems that it's not a decision between having Eovaldi in the bullpen or in the rotation, but it's a choice between having Eovaldi in the pen now or having him in the rotation maybe a month down the road. That being the case, I think we would all choose having Eovaldi now.

 

Also, Eovaldi is fully on board with going into the pen for now. He stated that it's partly his fault that the pen is in the shape that it's in, and it's his duty to help fix the pen. I believe he also sees himself as returning to the rotation sometime later this season.

 

All that said, we need a 5th starter no matter how good Eovaldi might be in the pen.

[S5Dewey]

To me, it seems like ramping it up several times a week, sometimes 2-3 days in a row, would be more wear and tear on the arm than pitching once every 5 days, but I honestly don't know.

 

That said, it seems that it's not a decision between having Eovaldi in the bullpen or in the rotation, but it's a choice between having Eovaldi in the pen now or having him in the rotation maybe a month down the road. That being the case, I think we would all choose having Eovaldi now.

 

Also, Eovaldi is fully on board with going into the pen for now. He stated that it's partly his fault that the pen is in the shape that it's in, and it's his duty to help fix the pen. I believe he also sees himself as returning to the rotation sometime later this season.

 

All that said, we need a 5th starter no matter how good Eovaldi might be in the pen.

 

One more thing we agree on.

 

BTW, how's summer? It's unusual to see you posting in the morning on weekdays.

[Kimmi]

One more thing we agree on.

 

BTW, how's summer? It's unusual to see you posting in the morning on weekdays.

 

Summer is good! It goes by way too fast!

 

I have taken short trips to Texas and Pennsylvania so far, going on a 3 day road trip tomorrow, and a vacation to Lake Gaston in North Carolina in early August.

 

But mostly, it's great to just have some time to relax. I feel like I go nonstop during the school year.

[jacksonianmarch]

To me, it seems like ramping it up several times a week, sometimes 2-3 days in a row, would be more wear and tear on the arm than pitching once every 5 days, but I honestly don't know.

 

That said, it seems that it's not a decision between having Eovaldi in the bullpen or in the rotation, but it's a choice between having Eovaldi in the pen now or having him in the rotation maybe a month down the road. That being the case, I think we would all choose having Eovaldi now.

 

Also, Eovaldi is fully on board with going into the pen for now. He stated that it's partly his fault that the pen is in the shape that it's in, and it's his duty to help fix the pen. I believe he also sees himself as returning to the rotation sometime later this season.

 

All that said, we need a 5th starter no matter how good Eovaldi might be in the pen.

 

It’s pitcher specific. Some guys have rubber arms and can literally throw every day. Some guys are sore for 2-3 days after each time they let it rip. He is gonna find out

[jung]

It’s pitcher specific. Some guys have rubber arms and can literally throw every day. Some guys are sore for 2-3 days after each time they let it rip. He is gonna find out

 

If I were the Sox and I actually thought I had a shot at this thing, I would not be leaving myself at the "lets find out" stage for a Closer, nor would I be risking the $17M I just invested in Nate to find out. Then again, maybe they don't think they really have a shot at going all the way this year.

 

Frankly to me this is just another example of how cross purposes the Sox FO has been all season and in the lead up to this season. They lean a little this way and a little that way. In this case, they are leaning both ways at once!

 

I really don't think they have had it right since they won the 2018 Crown and I am also worried that DD is simply in lame duck mode already.

Edited July 10, 2019 by jung

[oldtimer]

i see Thornburg was released, which is a sad day for him and is one of the worst acquisiitons made under DD. Those things happen, but this one was really tough for the club.

[jung]

Dude, you are desperately fighting to put words into Eovaldi’s mouth. As far as anyone can tell, he’s never publicly said he doesn’t want to close. We have seen indications he prefers starting, and made up possible/likely explanations for it (which you immediately discredited for no apparent reason). But I have never seen anything of him blatantly saying he doesn’t want to close. And if I had or you had seen it, I imagine it didn’t escape notice from Dombrowski or Cora.

 

I think EVERYONE would prefer he start. Dombrowski didn’t give him that ludicrous contract to close. While DD is notorious for giving out impressive paydays, even he wouldn’t have made Eovaldi among the highest paid closers in the game when Nathan had no experience in the role. But as he is off recent surgery, it looks like they don’t think he can handle the workload.

 

This might be a situation where the choices are 1) Eovaldi in the bullpen, or 2) Eovaldi out for even longer, possibly all season...

 

What he says is simply an indication of what he thinks his arm can handle. Its not more than that. But its not less than that EITHER!

 

A) I put what I considered the be the key line in my post which you quoted above.

I have repeatedly said in this thread that Eovoldi to the pen...Not a problem that I can see particularly since he has to do something to get his arm back in shape. Eovoldi to Closer....a problem and the reasons should be obvious.

 

You want to dance around that...be my guest.

[kenmeister]

i see Thornburg was released, which is a sad day for him and is one of the worst acquisiitons made under DD. Those things happen, but this one was really tough for the club.

 

Interestingly, Travis Shaw is back in the minors after hitting .164 this season, so I can't actually complain about the Thornburg trade anymore.