The Pen

[TylerD]

I live in Midwest.

 

Only blow back I get for being a Red Sox fan is team's geographical association with the Patriots. Pretty much everyone hates Patriots outside of New England. I always have to explain I became a Sox fan back in 1967 and I have never been a Patriots fan. I don't dislike the team like so many do. Just not a fan.

 

I agree with this. I respect them for how good they are, but don't like them. I am a Canadian so my teams range from the Red Sox in baseball, to the Colts in NFL, and the Ottawa Senators in the NHL. I guess the Toronto Raptors in the NBA but I am not a huge basketball fan.

[moonslav59]

There is very little there to get excited about. But if DD is trying to trade a catcher, which one will other teams most likely want to talk about?

 

Clearly Vaz. He has the better offensive upside.

 

I'm not arguing that point. My point is, I'd rather get less of a pen arm by trading Swihart & Johnson than more of a pen arm for Vaz.

[moonslav59]

Sox Vazquez 51-29 W-L

Leon 63-26 W-L

 

I bet Sale and Price will have some say about the Catchers.

 

I don't want to trade Vaz or Leon, and I'm fine with letting Leon catch every start by Sale & Price, but I don't see him doing well when playing more than 50-60 games- maybe 70. I don't want Swihart catching a lot.

 

That's why I'm for trading Swihart with another player/prospect, even if it means the RP'er we get back isn't all that great.

[notin]

Clearly Vaz. He has the better offensive upside.

 

I'm not arguing that point. My point is, I'd rather get less of a pen arm by trading Swihart & Johnson than more of a pen arm for Vaz.

 

 

Agreed.

 

So if a catcher is dealt to improve the current team, Vaz is the logical choice. If the Sox just want to dump someone off and see what happens, Swihart is the guy.

 

Now, if Oakland wants to save money - not uncommon - maybe Swihart for Rodney?

 

Or maybe the extra years of cheap control inspire the A’s to enhance the deal to Vazquez for Rodney and Julio Mateo or some equivalent prospect?

 

That the A’s have a catching prospect in Sean Murphy who is close to MLB might just cancel their interest as well...

[sk7326]

Both Vazquez and Swihart will have some trade value, though the former has more as a single asset. Swihart has 2 years of control left and is a good change of scenery candidate. Vazquez is clearly at worst a low end starter, and in October showed evidence that he could be an above average one.

[harmony]

Both Vazquez and Swihart will have some trade value, though the former has more as a single asset. Swihart has 2 years of control left and is a good change of scenery candidate. Vazquez is clearly at worst a low end starter, and in October showed evidence that he could be an above average one.

With two years and 164 days of MLB service, Blake Swihart remains under team control for four more seasons (including this year as a Super Two with a salary of $910,000):

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/swihabl01.shtml

[Kimmi]

I just can't see us going through the whole season with Leon-Swihart.

 

I'd rather go light on the pen.

 

IMO, it's a big risk to depend on Swihart to catch 40% of the games, and I say that as a Swihart fan. He really hasn't had enough playing time in the majors recently to know what to expect from him. He could be pretty good, but then again, he could be pretty bad. Not only defensively, but offensively as well.

 

Out of our 3 catchers, Vazquez is the one I'd least want to part with. As you said, I'd rather go light on the pen.

[OH FOY]

Something to think about, if the Sox start Pinching.

Leon makes 2.475 mill this year.

Vazquez will make 2.85 this year.

Next year 4.2

2021 - 6.350

2022 - 7 million with a buyout, but could earn 8 Million.

[dgalehouse]

Go light on the pen , go light on the pen - nant .

[notin]

IMO, it's a big risk to depend on Swihart to catch 40% of the games, and I say that as a Swihart fan. He really hasn't had enough playing time in the majors recently to know what to expect from him. He could be pretty good, but then again, he could be pretty bad. Not only defensively, but offensively as well.

 

 

 

The Sox will never know what they have in Swihart unless he plays....

[harmony]

The Cubs reportedly will sign reliever Brad Brach:

 

[dgalehouse]

Attention Cost Cutters shoppers : I direct your attention to discount aisle three , where Brach is on sale for three mill . Oops. Sorry , too late .

[OH FOY]

Go light on the pen , go light on the pen - nant .

 

Great Line! Like it. 100 pitch count, and mostly a 6 inning game, for Starters. Be careful.

[dgalehouse]

Attention Cost Cutters shoppers : I direct your attention to discount aisle three , where Brach is on sale for three mill . Oops. Sorry , too late .

 

Head on over to the clearance aisle , where Strickland is on special. Better hurry .

[moonslav59]

Maybe we end up trading for someone better than Brach or Strickland.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's have a little trust in Dave.

[TylerD]

Let's have a little trust in Dave.

 

I'm just glad we have the talent we do, that if our pen isn't good to start the season our starting rotation and offense should be enough to carry us. Hopefully....

[Slasher9]

Let's have a little trust in Dave.

 

even i will admit he's earned it......

[notin]

Head on over to the clearance aisle , where Strickland is on special. Better hurry .

 

 

Ok I give up. The Sox should not be cutting costs in the bullpen. Where should they be economizing?

 

There does appear to be some reality to the Sox spending limits. And while I agree bullpen is a bad place to be overly frugal, what is a good place?

 

I’ll even get you started. While I didn’t think bringing back Kimbrel was a good idea, I did say he would be a better free agent to sign than Eovaldi. Do you agree - closer over rotation?

 

Also I don’t think I will ever understand paying so much for Pearce while replacing Kimbrel and Kelly with Erasmo Ramirez and Domingo Tapia. Was World Series MVP Pearce a bad move? Ageee or disagree?

 

Or would you like to see the Sox trade a high-priced starting position player to accommodate a closer? Bogaerts? Bradley? Pedroia, whom it’s really not possible to trade? Or maybe JD Martinez needs to go? Or a starting pitcher. Maybe Porcello? Or Price?

 

They seem to have hit their limit, and as fans we really have no grounds to call Henry cheap, since he will have spent about half a billion dollars on players in 2018 and 2019 alone.

 

So who should go in your opinion?

[dgalehouse]

Ok I give up. The Sox should not be cutting costs in the bullpen. Where should they be economizing?

 

There does appear to be some reality to the Sox spending limits. And while I agree bullpen is a bad place to be overly frugal, what is a good place?

 

I’ll even get you started. While I didn’t think bringing back Kimbrel was a good idea, I did say he would be a better free agent to sign than Eovaldi. Do you agree - closer over rotation?

 

Also I don’t think I will ever understand paying so much for Pearce while replacing Kimbrel and Kelly with Erasmo Ramirez and Domingo Tapia. Was World Series MVP Pearce a bad move? Ageee or disagree?

 

Or would you like to see the Sox trade a high-priced starting position player to accommodate a closer? Bogaerts? Bradley? Pedroia, whom it’s really not possible to trade? Or maybe JD Martinez needs to go? Or a starting pitcher. Maybe Porcello? Or Price?

 

They seem to have hit their limit, and as fans we really have no grounds to call Henry cheap, since he will have spent about half a billion dollars on players in 2018 and 2019 alone.

 

So who should go in your opinion?

 

I guess it comes down to how much importance you give the bullpen as opposed to the other areas . I happen to think that , in today's game , the bullpen is vital . For me , I think we have a chance to repeat , so we should spend what it takes . I never called John Henry cheap . But sometimes you have to do what it takes to win . If you absolutely must cut in other areas , we do have two first basemen , three catchers , two utility infielders and a full staff of starting pitchers . I would prefer to keep them , but I don't value them over and above a strong bullpen. And it didn't have to be Kimbrel. We have seen a number of cheaper, not as good , but still viable alternatives go off the board one by one . I just cannot see trying to win again and going with such a questionable bullpen.

[notin]

I guess it comes down to how much importance you give the bullpen as opposed to the other areas . I happen to think that , in today's game , the bullpen is vital . For me , I think we have a chance to repeat , so we should spend what it takes . I never called John Henry cheap . But sometimes you have to do what it takes to win . If you absolutely must cut in other areas , we do have two first basemen , three catchers , two utility infielders and a full staff of starting pitchers . I would prefer to keep them , but I don't value them over and above a strong bullpen. And it didn't have to be Kimbrel. We have seen a number of cheaper, not as good , but still viable alternatives go off the board one by one . I just cannot see trying to win again and going with such a questionable bullpen.

 

See, I don’t see Kimbrel as a necessity, but I don’t like the idea of cost cutting there, although “cheap” doesn’t always mean “bad.”

 

I really don’t get signing Pearce to backup 1b when for less money, CJ Cron, Jon Lucroy and David Freese could be had, and possibly Neil Walker, who signed for half of what Pearce got last year. Or maybe just try Swihart, whose already here?

 

I think DD might have misread the market?

 

But then his history does include two distinct traits - trading away prospects and going cheap on bullpens. He does have mixed results on the latter one...

[moonslav59]

I guess it comes down to how much importance you give the bullpen as opposed to the other areas . I happen to think that , in today's game , the bullpen is vital . For me , I think we have a chance to repeat , so we should spend what it takes . I never called John Henry cheap . But sometimes you have to do what it takes to win . If you absolutely must cut in other areas , we do have two first basemen , three catchers , two utility infielders and a full staff of starting pitchers . I would prefer to keep them , but I don't value them over and above a strong bullpen. And it didn't have to be Kimbrel. We have seen a number of cheaper, not as good , but still viable alternatives go off the board one by one . I just cannot see trying to win again and going with such a questionable bullpen.

 

The problem with some of the positions you mention as possible targets of cutting back on to create budget space for the pen is that there is no market for Moreland and his contract. I doubt we look to trade Pearce, and I think we'd have to wait anyways.

 

We won't save anything by trading Swihart or Leon, so trading Vaz is the only sacrifice that might create some budget space for the pen. IMO, trading Vaz would make some of our pitchers worse, if they had to pitch to Swihart, so we lose at more than just the catcher position.

 

Utility IF'er is not something many teams are willing to pay the money Nunez is making. That means Holt would be traded.

 

Trading one of our 5 starters, so we can afford a closer would just create a bigger hole, IMO. Price is paid too much, ERod would not free up enough money for Kimbrel. That leaves Porcello or Sale.

 

Who do you trade to create the $14-16M space needed for Kimbrel?

 

Name names.

 

Sale

 

Porcello

 

Vaz

 

Holt

 

A combination?

[harmony]

From Thursday's MLB Trade Rumors chat with Steve Adams:

5:22 Frankly, I think it's laughable that so many big market teams are choosing to pass and trying to stay south of the luxury tax rather than aggressively try to make their teams better. Manfred can harp on pace of play and a lack of action in games all he wants, but having an absolute snooze of an offseason because a third of the league isn't trying to win at all and half the big market teams are acting like the luxury tax line actually matters to them is damaging fan interest far more.

Heyyy perfect timing:

Chris Cotillo @ChrisCotillo

15s

Red Sox looking at deals in $2-3 million, from what I'm hearing... so Brach may have been a little rich for their blood at this point. Career at Fenway Park: 1.27 ERA, 0.991 WHIP, 7.1 K/9 in 35.1 innings.

5:23 That's an absolute joke for the Red Sox and a slap in the face to fans. You just won a World Series! This is the last year of Sale+Xander+JDM+Mookie all on the same team ... and you're going to go cheap in the 'pen because you don't want your pick in next year's draft to drop 10 spots? Give me a break.

https://www.jotcast.com/chat/chat-with-mlbtrs-steve-adams-1-24-19-4418.html

[Kimmi]

Maybe we end up trading for someone better than Brach or Strickland.

 

Maybe Tyler Thornburg will be this year's Koji.

[vegasbob]

I speculated during the season that a WS win, which gladly occurred, would give the FO/Ownership a pass on spending more in 2019 . The pressure is off. DD can say that with the exception of Kimbrel , Kelly and Pomeranz (lol), you have the team that won 108 games plus 3 playoff series with few problems. The non pitchers are 100% the same, and the rotation is the same. He still has all Spring and early season to sort out initial performances, injuries, etc. I think they are principally holding back now in an attempt to ease the reload after '19 and then '20.

 

Assuming no major injuries, who among us really doesn't think this is at least a WC team with a chance, and that may get whatever is needed on a July-Oct rental? Remember that to ownership this is a business that has survived almost 100 years of marginal success, and needs to be in position to keep the success of the 2000's happening , so I think there is more like a 3 year roster plan working and 2019 may be the squeeze year to set up the others.

[vegasbob]

BTW, glad to see Drew Pomeranz got a performance based job with the Giants so he and fat Panda can share stories of their days in Boston. Speaking of the hog, he will be finally off the checkbook after 2019. Maybe Pedey will find he needs to retire after this year also, short circuiting his final contract. Or he might be of good value again, just not so likely.

[notin]

BTW, glad to see Drew Pomeranz got a performance based job with the Giants so he and fat Panda can share stories of their days in Boston. Speaking of the hog, he will be finally off the checkbook after 2019. Maybe Pedey will find he needs to retire after this year also, short circuiting his final contract. Or he might be of good value again, just not so likely.

 

 

The chances Pedroia retires early and walks away from the game (this saving the Sox roughly $14mill annually towards the tax limits) are about the same as the chances of my daughter’s guinea pigs wining the Nobel Prize for Chemistry this year...

[S5Dewey]

5:23 That's an absolute joke for the Red Sox and a slap in the face to fans. You just won a World Series! This is the last year of Sale+Xander+JDM+Mookie all on the same team ... and you're going to go cheap in the 'pen because you don't want your pick in next year's draft to drop 10 spots? Give me a break.

 

That's the story as I see it. That window is going to slam shut in the very near future and it'll be a few years before we have even a sniff at another WSC. How much worse are the Red Sox going to be in 2020 or 2021 with that draft pick that's 10 spots lower in 2019? We're probably not going to be winning big in 2020/2021 anyway so give it a shot in 2019.

 

Unfortunately that ship may now have sailed with the cream of the crop of FA relievers already having been signed.

I just keep thinking that about one year ago we were all stressing about not having a power hitter in the order and shortly thereafter DD signed JDM. Maybe DD knows what he's doing. I dunno, it doesn't look that way, but still....

Edited January 25, 2019 by S5Dewey

[jacksonianmarch]

Now bargain guys are going. I cannot imagine for the life of me that Dd thinks this pen is good enough. Yeah, the pen was great in the playoffs, but you also had Sale, ERod and Eovaldi throw innings out of the pen. That ain’t happening over 162. This brings me back to the days when Andy Pettitte was used on his throw day because our pen minus Mo was atrocious.

[harmony]

Head on over to the clearance aisle , where Strickland is on special. Better hurry .

Hunter Strickland signed a one-year contract with Seattle for about $1.3 million, plus incentives that could nearly double his salary based on games pitched and games finished. Because Strickland comes with two additional years of team control the modest deal makes some sense for a club that plans to "step back" in 2019.

 

The Red Sox selected Strickland in the 18th round of the 2007 draft but traded the righthander with Argenis Diaz to Pittsburgh in July 2009 for Adam LaRoche.