And the off season begins (2018-19)

[OH FOY]

Trade Porcello, by June you'll be scrambling for another steady Starter. Good Luck.

[OH FOY]

If there is one position on this team I really like its our Catchers. Both call good games, not the worst hitters. Both Great Defensively, and throwing our Runners, and are cheap, for the wins that we get. Leon got tired at end of year for Catching for 2 Months, it effected his hitting.

[OH FOY]

On July 1st when CV got hurt, Leon was hitting .261. Then next 2 months, he caught all but 4 games. During the hardest part of year, to Catch, with all the heat, and number of games he caught. It hurt his hitting.

Catcher is not like DH.

This is his game log, you'll see.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=leonsa01&t=b&year=2018

Edited December 16, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Kimmi]

But if Mookie is a consistent 8-9 WAR player, 35 million is a bargain, per FanGraphs.

 

No doubt. It's not the $35 million I'm concerned about, it's the 10 years.

[cp176]

I think there remains a feeling that Swihart has the potential to be more than he has demonstrated to date. On the other hand , Sandy Leon is what he is , despite having acquired a fan club of sorts here on TalkSox.

 

Sandy Leon likely is a better catcher receiver than Vasquez. We have two damn good backup catchers. that is what they are. I still don't see it as a position of great need. It ain't broke!

[Bellhorn04]

No doubt. It's not the $35 million I'm concerned about, it's the 10 years.

 

Maybe front-load it and give him an opt-out after 3 years.

[moonslav59]

Maybe front-load it and give him an opt-out after 3 years.

 

I don't care how we do it, but just keep Betts here!

 

An opt out seems to be the new craze, so if that's what it takes then so be it.

[Northern Star]

No doubt. It's not the $35 million I'm concerned about, it's the 10 years.

 

Where did these ten year contracts suddenly come from? Didn't anyone learn from the A-Rod debacle?

[jacksonianmarch]

Arod’s first ten year contract was a good deal

[notin]

Where did these ten year contracts suddenly come from? Didn't anyone learn from the A-Rod debacle?

 

It’s smarter to give a 10 year contract to a 26yo than a 5 year contract to a 31yo...

[moonslav59]

Biggest 7+ year contracts:

 

$325M/13 Stanton ('15-'27)

-Jury still out

 

$275/10 ARod ('08-'17)

-Bad deal

 

$252M/10 ARod ('01-'10)

-Good deal

 

$248/8 Miggy ('16-'23)

-Maybe the worst of the worst

 

$240M/10 Pujols ('12-'21)

-Horrible

 

$240M/10 Cano ('14-'23)

-Not too good, so far

 

$225M/10 Votto ('14-'23)'

-Good, so far

 

$217M/7 Price ('16-'22)

-Decent, so far

 

$215M/7 Kershaw ('14-'20)

-Good, so far

 

$214M/9 Fielder ('12-'20)

-Injury made this horrible

 

$210M/7 Scherzer ('15-'21)

-Very good, so far

 

$189M/10 Jeter (01-'10)

-Good, I guess, if you discount defense

 

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Out of the 12 biggest long term deals...

 

5 were bad to horrible

1 Jury still out (Cano)

5 Decent to good, so far

1 Good

[jacksonianmarch]

Cano's deal to this point has been a good one. 20.7 WAR over 5 years. Per fangraphs (big pinch of salt on this one), he has been worth $163.7 mil and had been paid $120 mil.

[notin]

Kershaw opted out of his deal so it can receive a final grade...

[moonslav59]

It looks pretty close to half being good and half being bad.

[jacksonianmarch]

His production was good again last year. Can he be worth $74 mil over the last 5 yrs? I assume he could. Heck, he could be worth it if he has one more big year then a bunch of above or at replacement level seasons

[Bellhorn04]

$210M/7 Scherzer ('15-'21)

-Very good, so far

 

$189M/10 Jeter (01-'10)

-Good, I guess, if you discount defense

 

Scherzer's contract has been a steal, crazy as that might sound.

 

Jeter's contract was excellent based on his fWAR. His offense more than compensated for his defense. You're just going to have to accept that.

[kenmeister]

Biggest 7+ year contracts:

 

$325M/13 Stanton ('15-'27)

-Jury still out

 

$275/10 ARod ('08-'17)

-Bad deal

 

$252M/10 ARod ('01-'10)

-Good deal

 

$248/8 Miggy ('16-'23)

-Maybe the worst of the worst

 

$240M/10 Pujols ('12-'21)

-Horrible

 

$240M/10 Cano ('14-'23)

-Not too good, so far

 

$225M/10 Votto ('14-'23)'

-Good, so far

 

$217M/7 Price ('16-'22)

-Decent, so far

 

$215M/7 Kershaw ('14-'20)

-Good, so far

 

$214M/9 Fielder ('12-'20)

-Injury made this horrible

 

$210M/7 Scherzer ('15-'21)

-Very good, so far

 

$189M/10 Jeter (01-'10)

-Good, I guess, if you discount defense

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe it’s just the coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, but who is Miggy?

[Dojji]

Maybe it’s just the coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, but who is Miggy?

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cabremi01.shtml

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe it’s just the coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, but who is Miggy?

 

Shame on you, man.

[harmony]

Cano's deal to this point has been a good one. 20.7 WAR over 5 years. Per fangraphs (big pinch of salt on this one), he has been worth $163.7 mil and had been paid $120 mil.

To be precise, Seattle paid Robinson Cano about $108 million over five years because of his unpaid 80-day suspension this season.

 

When Cano signed his contract five years ago the $24 million annual salary was near the highest in baseball. This year 16 players earned a higher salary than Cano, who in only 80 games this season posted an fWAR higher than eight of those 16 players.

 

Steamer currently projects Cano with a 2019 WAR of 3.5, which this year was valued at about $28 million.

 

Cano's contract has five years and $120 million left (with the Mariners paying $20 million of that). David Price has four years and $127 million left after the lefthander posted only 8.7 fWAR, valued at $69.9 million, over the first three years of the contract.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2018&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=3&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Steamer currently projects Price with a 2019 WAR of 3.1, which this year was valued around $24 million.

 

Cano never caught a sniff of the postseason with the Mariners while Price was a World Series hero but moonslav59 perhaps confuses which contract has been "not too good, so far" and which one has been "decent, so far."

Edited December 17, 2018 by harmony

[kenmeister]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cabremi01.shtml

 

Oh! Wait, so you are telling me that he was handed an 8 year contract when he was 33 years old? Madness!!!!

 

This contract looks even worse than Pablo Sandoval's and I didn't think that was possible.

[moonslav59]

To be precise, Seattle paid Robinson Cano about $108 million over five years because of his unpaid 80-day suspension this season.

 

When Cano signed his contract five years ago the $24 million annual salary was near the highest in baseball. This year 16 players earned a higher salary than Cano, who in only 80 games this season posted an fWAR higher than eight of those 16 players.

 

Steamer currently projects Cano with a 2019 WAR of 3.5, which this year was valued at about $28 million.

 

Cano's contract has five years and $120 million left (with the Mariners paying $20 million of that). David Price has four years and $127 million left after the lefthander posted only 8.7 fWAR, valued at $69.9 million, over the first three years of the contract.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2018&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=3&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Steamer currently projects Price with a 2019 WAR of 3.1, which this year was valued around $24 million.

 

Cano never caught a sniff of the postseason with the Mariners while Price was a World Series hero but moonslav59 perhaps confuses which contract has been "not too good, so far" and which one has been "decent, so far."

 

I said Price's was decent, because he directly played a significant role in a ring.

 

I'm not sure using fangraph's value numbers is the best measure. I'm okay with saying Cano has been decent, like price. The Not good so far label was partially based on Cano not leading the M's to the playoffs even once, let alone a ring.

 

I'm sorry, but I think Cano fell short of expectations in Seattle. He had an OPS+ of 138 in his last 5 years with NYY. It was 129 with Seattle. Plus, he got caught cheating, so that doesn't help his or your case much.

 

We can call it "decent, so far," and we can call Price "Decent or not so good, so far," if you like depending on what criteria you want to use. They are both pretty close, but Cano got a 10 year deal and has 5 more to go at ages 36-40. Price signed a 7 year deal and has 4 years left at ages 33-36. I'm pretty sure who ends up with a better final score... PRICE!

[Bellhorn04]

We can call it "decent, so far," and we can call Price "Decent or not so good, so far," if you like depending on what criteria you want to use. They are both pretty close, but Cano got a 10 year deal and has 5 more to go at ages 36-40. Price signed a 7 year deal and has 4 years left at ages 33-36. I'm pretty sure who ends up with a better final score... PRICE!

 

Neither FanGraphs nor any of the other stat systems, as far as I know, have made any attempt whatsoever to build postseason performances into their numbers.

[moonslav59]

Neither FanGraphs nor any of the other stat systems, as far as I know, have made any attempt whatsoever to build postseason performances into their numbers.

 

Not to mention a player's role in getting a team or preventing a team from even reaching the playoffs.

[Bellhorn04]

Not to mention a player's role in getting a team or preventing a team from even reaching the playoffs.

 

Not sure how that could be done beyond the WAR that's already measured.

[moonslav59]

Not sure how that could be done beyond the WAR that's already measured.

 

True, but the fact that Seattle had some pretty good teams, on paper, and never made the playoffs with Cano, while Price helped us reach the playoffs all 3 years, should count for something.

[harmony]

I said Price's was decent, because he directly played a significant role in a ring.

 

I'm not sure using fangraph's value numbers is the best measure. I'm okay with saying Cano has been decent, like price. The Not good so far label was partially based on Cano not leading the M's to the playoffs even once, let alone a ring.

 

I'm sorry, but I think Cano fell short of expectations in Seattle. He had an OPS+ of 138 in his last 5 years with NYY. It was 129 with Seattle. Plus, he got caught cheating, so that doesn't help his or your case much.

 

We can call it "decent, so far," and we can call Price "Decent or not so good, so far," if you like depending on what criteria you want to use. They are both pretty close, but Cano got a 10 year deal and has 5 more to go at ages 36-40. Price signed a 7 year deal and has 4 years left at ages 33-36. I'm pretty sure who ends up with a better final score... PRICE!

With only 8.7 fWAR, valued at $69.9 million (while being paid $90 million), in the first three years of his seven-year contract, David Price is not on pace to even meet the 20.7 fWAR, valued at $163.7 million, that Robinson Cano has already posted in the first five years of his contract. Cano could retire tomorrow and probably still outproduce what Price will post over seven years.

 

Steamer projects 2019 WAR of 3.1 for Price and 3.5 for Cano. Injury concerns have hounded Price more than Cano.

 

Cano has not fallen off much from the cited peak five years in New York, but I would note that Cano posted an OPS+ of 126 in nine seasons with the Yankees and an OPS+ of 129 in five seasons with the Mariners.

[moonslav59]

With only 8.7 fWAR, valued at $69.9 million (while being paid $90 million), in the first three years of his seven-year contract, David Price is not on pace to even meet the 20.7 fWAR, valued at $163.7 million, that Robinson Cano has already posted in the first five years of his contract. Cano could retire tomorrow and probably still outproduce what Price will post over seven years.

 

Steamer projects 2019 WAR of 3.1 for Price and 3.5 for Cano. Injury concerns have hounded Price more than Cano.

 

Cano has not fallen off much from the cited peak five years in New York, but I would note that Cano posted an OPS+ of 126 in nine seasons with the Yankees and an OPS+ of 129 in five seasons with the Mariners.

 

Seattle was not expecting to get the production of Cano's first few years with NY. They were expecting numbers like his last 5 years (OPS+ 138) or his last 2 years in NY of 148 and 147.

 

Yes, price has been injured, but he's not a cheater. His 2018 playoff heroics are probably bring him much closer to the Cano's 5 years combined.

 

My guess is Price's WAR per year for his remaining 4 years outpaces Cano's final 5 years average WAR per year.

[harmony]

Seattle was not expecting to get the production of Cano's first few years with NY. They were expecting numbers like his last 5 years (OPS+ 138) or his last 2 years in NY of 148 and 147.

 

Yes, price has been injured, but he's not a cheater. His 2018 playoff heroics are probably bring him much closer to the Cano's 5 years combined.

 

My guess is Price's WAR per year for his remaining 4 years outpaces Cano's final 5 years average WAR per year.

I suspect the Red Sox were expecting David Price to post an annual 5.1 fWAR that the lefthander averaged in the six previous seasons instead of the 2.9 fWAR Price has averaged in three seasons with the Sox.

 

One player dropped off more than the other.