Sale DL

[jacksonianmarch]

I know that. The fact is missing a month down the stretch with “shoulder pain” in the penultimate season of his contract will drive down the price.

[Station 13]

I know that. The fact is missing a month down the stretch with “shoulder pain” in the penultimate season of his contract will drive down the price.

 

Hopefully it works in our favor and we get a huge discount.

[dannycater]

This is a by-product of coddling pitchers arms rather than throwing all the time the way the Braves pitchers did--Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz...You cannot strengthen your throwing arm by extended resting. First you lose your stamina so you aren't able to go 8 innings in a postseason game, and that means effectiveness often by your 80th pitch or more. If he is dealing with soreness, it actually used to be quite normal, so I'm not real pleased with the over-coddling. The fear factors are there, but he needs to be throwing all the time on off days and as Cafardo said maybe be throwing through whatever "tendonitis" he might have. Serious arm injuries are not going to be prevented by intermediate rests. They happen for various reasons. Resting a sore arm is not productive even if the Sox and today's medical staffs are afraid. It's better for him to throw through soreness.

[Bellhorn04]

This is a by-product of coddling pitchers arms rather than throwing all the time the way the Braves pitchers did--Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz...You cannot strengthen your throwing arm by extended resting. First you lose your stamina so you aren't able to go 8 innings in a postseason game, and that means effectiveness often by your 80th pitch or more. If he is dealing with soreness, it actually used to be quite normal, so I'm not real pleased with the over-coddling. The fear factors are there, but he needs to be throwing all the time on off days and as Cafardo said maybe be throwing through whatever "tendonitis" he might have. Serious arm injuries are not going to be prevented by intermediate rests. They happen for various reasons. Resting a sore arm is not productive even if the Sox and today's medical staffs are afraid. It's better for him to throw through soreness.

 

Of course Sale also has a well-documented history of losing effectiveness late in the season, and many Sox followers have been clamoring for him to get extra rest, soreness or not.

[dannycater]

DL for everyday guys for various ailments, including pulling a hamstring or twisting an ankle...now that's worthwhile rest. But pitchers arms/shoulders....the guy is throwing 99...hell, expect to be sore. But when Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, etc. threw 250 to 300 innings, no one batted an eye. Ask them how sore they were between starts, how many times their arms felt really sore, shoulders aching, etc....it's part of the game. It did not cause injuries. Having the 4 to 5 days between starts was the "rest." Over throwing in MLB is over-rated. Except in one case---which is throwing relievers 5x a week and not expecting effectivenss to decrease. So many teams coddle the starter and yet treat the reliever like they are indestructable. Anyway, it's wrong both ways. Limit relievers more and let SPs go longer, but then that affects also the money structure and salaries for relievers. The need for 4 to 5 guys in a 9-inning game, situational yes, but in the overall...not necessary.

[S5Dewey]

I don't want to start anything or be accused of being a downer, but let's be honest. Is there anyone here who's seen him throw who didn't at one time or another say to themselves, "Wow, that motion looks like it could be troublesome"?

 

I have no more insight into what's going on than anyone else here. Like everyone else I haven't seen his medical records or talked with his doctor (obviously) and I'm really hoping there's nothing going on. OTOH, the realistic part of me is on the edge of my seat.

[OH FOY]

All I want to know is why use the word "Shoulder", these injuries end careers. Pulled hamstring, or blister works just as good. Shoulders are the worse for a Pitcher. Edited August 19, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Kimmi]

DL for everyday guys for various ailments, including pulling a hamstring or twisting an ankle...now that's worthwhile rest. But pitchers arms/shoulders....the guy is throwing 99...hell, expect to be sore. But when Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, etc. threw 250 to 300 innings, no one batted an eye. Ask them how sore they were between starts, how many times their arms felt really sore, shoulders aching, etc....it's part of the game. It did not cause injuries. Having the 4 to 5 days between starts was the "rest." Over throwing in MLB is over-rated. Except in one case---which is throwing relievers 5x a week and not expecting effectivenss to decrease. So many teams coddle the starter and yet treat the reliever like they are indestructable. Anyway, it's wrong both ways. Limit relievers more and let SPs go longer, but then that affects also the money structure and salaries for relievers. The need for 4 to 5 guys in a 9-inning game, situational yes, but in the overall...not necessary.

 

I am not an expert on physiology and shoulder ailments, but I think there is a lot of validity to what you're saying. How was it that pitchers back in the day could pitch so many innings with seemingly no ill effects? Pitchers are being coddled these days, yet TJ surgeries seem to be on the rise.

[Bellhorn04]

All I want to know is why use the word "Shoulder", these injuries end careers. Pulled hamstring, or blister works just as good. Shoulders are the worse for a Pitcher.

 

I think what you're getting at is that the information we're getting is true. Sale has some soreness in his shoulder and they're not just using the DL to rest him.

[notin]

I think what you're getting at is that the information we're getting is true. Sale has some soreness in his shoulder and they're not just using the DL to rest him.

 

It could be more of a pre-emptive measure. And with a 10 game lead, the decision to rest Sale gets a lot easier. If the Sox were up 1 or 2 games, there would be a lot more clamoring in the media for really specific details...

[notin]

How was it that pitchers back in the day could pitch so many innings with seemingly no ill effects? Pitchers are being coddled these days, yet TJ surgeries seem to be on the rise.

 

They did have ill effects, but history has allowed us to forget many names. How often do people wonder what “might have been” with Mark Fidrych, for example?

 

Tommy John surgeries are on the rise because the procedure itself isn’t that old. The namesake Tommy John pitched into the 1980’s. And as time has gone on, the procedure itself is getting more common with skilled and experienced doctors and refined procedures. But prior to Tommy John, if you tore that ligament, your career was instantly over.

 

The rise in popularity of the slider probably helped, too. I also think a lot of younger pitchers throw too hard too fast. You don’t need to throw 95 mph to get high school hitters out, but kids do it because radar gun readings translate directly into scholarships and signing bonuses...

Edited August 19, 2018 by notin

[Fan_since_Boggs]

They did have ill effects, but history has allowed us to forget many names. How often do people wonder what “might have been” with Mark Fidrych, for example?

 

Catfish Hunter too. He had a HOF career but he retired early due to arm issues. David Clyde. Billy Martin ruined Mike Norris, Rick Langford, and a few others. More recently, Dusty Baker may have ruined the careers of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.

 

As far as Sale goes, he has a history of fading down the stretch. As such, why not change his regular routine, give him extra rest this time around and see if he can perform at a higher level in the final months.

 

Last year, the Red Sox didn't give him extra rest and he failed to pitch at a high level in September and October. Thus, it makes perfect sense to try another method.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

It could be more of a pre-emptive measure. And with a 10 game lead, the decision to rest Sale gets a lot easier. If the Sox were up 1 or 2 games, there would be a lot more clamoring in the media for really specific details...

 

If Sale can continue pitching like he did his last start, maybe he should get 10 days off between every start.

 

Seriously though, get this guy as much rest as he needs. He's a machine out there, when healthy.

[a700hitter]

If Sale can continue pitching like he did his last start, maybe he should get 10 days off between every start.

 

Seriously though, get this guy as much rest as he needs. He's a machine out there, when healthy.

We need him strong, healthy and in top form for the playoffs.

[moonslav59]

We need him strong, healthy and in top form for the playoffs.

 

That's what I said last year, too.

 

However, we were fighting for not having to play the WC game. (I still wanted to rest Sale, then- not saying I was right.)

[Kimmi]

They did have ill effects, but history has allowed us to forget many names. How often do people wonder what “might have been” with Mark Fidrych, for example?

 

Tommy John surgeries are on the rise because the procedure itself isn’t that old. The namesake Tommy John pitched into the 1980’s. And as time has gone on, the procedure itself is getting more common with skilled and experienced doctors and refined procedures. But prior to Tommy John, if you tore that ligament, your career was instantly over.

 

The rise in popularity of the slider probably helped, too. I also think a lot of younger pitchers throw too hard too fast. You don’t need to throw 95 mph to get high school hitters out, but kids do it because radar gun readings translate directly into scholarships and signing bonuses...

 

All fair points Notin.

 

It still seems that pitchers these days are coddled, but maybe it's with good reason.

[Bellhorn04]

Billy Martin tried the 'no more coddling' approach in 1980 and it worked for one year only.

[Kimmi]

Billy Martin tried the 'no more coddling' approach in 1980 and it worked for one year only.

 

Didn't Nolan Ryan try something like that with the Houston pitching staff not too long ago?

[Bellhorn04]

Didn't Nolan Ryan try something like that with the Houston pitching staff not too long ago?

 

I think that was when he was president of the Rangers, and it turned out to be all talk by Nolan that the manager and coaches didn't want to have anything to do with.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Bellhorn04

[Kimmi]

I think that was when he was president of the Rangers, and it turned out to be all talk by Nolan that the manager and coaches didn't want to have anything to do with.

 

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

[sundvl20]

It could be more of a pre-emptive measure. And with a 10 game lead, the decision to rest Sale gets a lot easier. If the Sox were up 1 or 2 games, there would be a lot more clamoring in the media for really specific details...

 

Bingo. i said a month ago it would be nice to grab a big lead and give him a ton of rest in august. he wears down every single year so not only is this a great move but also incredibly obvious. fwiw im sure he has some soreness in his shoulder or wherever, but what starter doesnt in august

[bosoxmal]

Too much "K" pitching. Lefty Grove threw as hard as any pitcger in that era. Look at his 1931 stats (brfore e hurt his shoulder)''''

 

Record 31-4

IP 289

K 178 (not as many as you thought, right?)

BB 64

ERA 2.04

and he gave up ONE HOME RUN the entire friggen year!!

 

After returning to "form",Lefty threw as hard as ever BT, about 30 fastballs/game.

 

Slow doen, Chris. Trying throwing a game using about 30 fasballs. Drop the change up to about 85

 

Stop being a thrower, and learn how to PITCH

[notin]

fwiw im sure he has some soreness in his shoulder or wherever, but what starter doesnt in august

 

This is so obvious and probably something we all should realize

[Slasher9]

Coddling pitchers began when they started making 10x more $$ then the manager....

[moonslav59]

Coddling pitchers began when they started making 10x more $$ then the manager....

 

What about non pitchers making 20X the manager?

[moonslav59]

This is so obvious and probably something we all should realize

 

Exactly, and slight inflammation is common as well.

[notin]

Exactly, and slight inflammation is common as well.

 

It’s also probably a bigger factor than anything mental for many pitchers labeled as “chokers” in the postseason...

[Kimmi]

It’s also probably a bigger factor than anything mental for many pitchers labeled as “chokers” in the postseason...

 

Ha.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not an expert on physiology and shoulder ailments, but I think there is a lot of validity to what you're saying. How was it that pitchers back in the day could pitch so many innings with seemingly no ill effects? Pitchers are being coddled these days, yet TJ surgeries seem to be on the rise.

 

The amount of pitchers who flamed out in the minors due to injury back then was immense. You just never heard about it

[jacksonianmarch]

And I don’t buy that this is a “rest” stint. No way that he hits the DL a second time for a shoulder issue due to rest. They’d pick something less concerning for his future earnings or else he wouldn’t admit to it. Like another poster said, hammy, blister, etc. A recurrent shoulder issue will scare down his earnings come 2020