Dave Dombrowski

[Nick]

Panda was a Ben signing.

 

DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

 

f*** DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.

[cp176]

DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

 

f*** DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.

 

Wait - was Larry Lucchino alive back then? he must have been because he is responsible for every bad move that Ben made during his tenure. Eventually more people will come over to the dark side and go along with us losers in thinking that we have a pretty good GM who is very interested in winning now and in the future.

[jung]

Got a perfect deal for DD. Pedey and nunez for Strohman. Toronto would be falling all over themselves to make that deal. They have never seen a broken down on his last legs or mending from his multiple injuries player they didn't like. Team is chock full of them. Geez Toronto would probably throw money into the deal to pull it off. Pedey has got trade clauses to deal with. But what the heck. Toronto will beg him to come.

[notin]

DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

 

f*** DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.

 

Dombrowaki has won a WS. Just not with Boston...

[Dojji]

DD has not won a world series

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/FLA/1997.shtml

[Dojji]

I'm going to have to have proof on that one. If you're right I'll no longer stick up for Cherington because I thought he did a good job whos talent he drafted turned out to be good picks, including Shaw. I also don't think he was responsible for Panda or Hanley, but was pressured into it for lack of patience.

 

Ownership loved Jon Lester. As far as I'm concerned any GM who couldn't convince ownership to open up their wallets to retain the services of a power ace and one of the most dependable starters in all of major league baseball, and a beloved hometown hero who had played a role in not one but two Championships and was beloved by the fans, for a price tag that it would turn out was still under market for a man of his talents, didn't do his job very well. A GM has to have the smarts and persuasive ability to prevent ownership and upper management from backing him into a corner. Even if lowballing Lester wasn't Cherington's idea, as general manager he has to be able to stop ownership from screwing up his rotation with their own bad ideas.

 

It the goal was to maintain competitive teams in 2015 and onward, there was no reason for Cherington to let himself get pushed around when it came to Jon Lester's salary. The contract Lester got proved to be an absolute bargain, substantially less than other top pitchers have commanded since, and I have no doubt that if we'd been in on Lester for similar money, either before the trade or in free agency, he'd be here right now.

 

The inability to challenge or change ownership directives when they're destructive to the team is the sign of a GM who can't command the respect of ownership and lowballing Lester to that extent shows that either he doesn't have a finger on the pulse of the free agency market, or is unable to argue against someone in the organization who doesn't understand free agent pitchers.

 

And even if it was ownership's doing, or Lucchino's you have to think that DD or Theo would have been able to talk them out of it. We certainly know Theo was willing to go to great lengths to try to change ownership's mind on what he felt was a bad idea, if you remember his reaction to the Beckett trade. That's part of a GM's job, to make his call and stand his ground. Needless to say, if Cherington did value Lester's role as a dependable top of the rotation starter, he didn't defend it properly. Whether through lack of understanding of the free agent pitching market, or simple lack of balls, either way it shows the lack of a skillset a good GM needs to have.

 

Lester was the lynchpin of the rotation, it was always going to be easier to rebuild the rotation with him than without him, and getting him for an under-market deal in which he'd easily pay for himself should have been more than feasible. You absolutely CAN make that sales pitch to an owner if you're willing to make a game effort to wear the pants in the relationship.

 

If Cherington couldn't do that, if he couldn't talk back to ownership and change their minds on key areas of team construction, then he wasn't actually a GM at all, much less a good one, and we're better off without him. General manager is considered an executive position for a reason, if Cherington was treating the job as advisory only, then he was overpromoted and is now back at an appropriate level for his talents.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Dojji

[OH FOY]

DD was a key contributor to their other Championship too, thought he Drafted Beckett, and AJ Burnett, and Signed in the International Draft, Miguel Cabrera before he left the Marlins.

Forgot he Drafted Adrian Gonzalez too.

Edited July 12, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Dojji]

What's that? DD has a clue how to draft and develop prospects? Wow!

 

To listen to this forum you'd think that such things would be so much Urdu to him.

[cp176]

I wish that I had been bright enough to phrase what you have phrased so very well. Not enjoying the criticism of Cherington is one thing but trying to compare what the two have done doesn't seem particularly fair to me. Good luck to Ben Cherington but as I have said many times over, I am really happy with what Dombrowski has done and regardless of the criticism aimed at him here personally I think that he is the guy for us now and moving into the future as well.

[moonslav59]

Ownership loved Jon Lester. As far as I'm concerned any GM who couldn't convince ownership to open up their wallets to retain the services of a power ace and one of the most dependable starters in all of major league baseball, and a beloved hometown hero who had played a role in not one but two Championships and was beloved by the fans, for a price tag that it would turn out was still under market for a man of his talents, didn't do his job very well. A GM has to have the smarts and persuasive ability to prevent ownership and upper management from backing him into a corner. Even if lowballing Lester wasn't Cherington's idea, as general manager he has to be able to stop ownership from screwing up his rotation with their own bad ideas.

 

It the goal was to maintain competitive teams in 2015 and onward, there was no reason for Cherington to let himself get pushed around when it came to Jon Lester's salary. The contract Lester got proved to be an absolute bargain, substantially less than other top pitchers have commanded since, and I have no doubt that if we'd been in on Lester for similar money, either before the trade or in free agency, he'd be here right now.

 

The inability to challenge or change ownership directives when they're destructive to the team is the sign of a GM who can't command the respect of ownership and lowballing Lester to that extent shows that either he doesn't have a finger on the pulse of the free agency market, or is unable to argue against someone in the organization who doesn't understand free agent pitchers.

 

And even if it was ownership's doing, or Lucchino's you have to think that DD or Theo would have been able to talk them out of it. We certainly know Theo was willing to go to great lengths to try to change ownership's mind on what he felt was a bad idea, if you remember his reaction to the Beckett trade. That's part of a GM's job, to make his call and stand his ground. Needless to say, if Cherington did value Lester's role as a dependable top of the rotation starter, he didn't defend it properly. Whether through lack of understanding of the free agent pitching market, or simple lack of balls, either way it shows the lack of a skillset a good GM needs to have.

 

Lester was the lynchpin of the rotation, it was always going to be easier to rebuild the rotation with him than without him, and getting him for an under-market deal in which he'd easily pay for himself should have been more than feasible. You absolutely CAN make that sales pitch to an owner if you're willing to make a game effort to wear the pants in the relationship.

 

If Cherington couldn't do that, if he couldn't talk back to ownership and change their minds on key areas of team construction, then he wasn't actually a GM at all, much less a good one, and we're better off without him. General manager is considered an executive position for a reason, if Cherington was treating the job as advisory only, then he was overpromoted and is now back at an appropriate level for his talents.

 

Great post, as always, but my guess is every good GM has had times they were not able to convince ownership of something they really wanted.

 

While you can't believe everything you read, it was widely stated that ownership did not want to sign any 30 year old pitcher to a long term deal. That might have also been why Ben passed on Scherzer to sign HRam and Pablo.

 

The change in ownership philosophy, if indeed it was a change, that allowed DD to sign Price should be a factor when comparing recent Sox GMs.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by moonslav59

[Dojji]

Great post, as always, but my guess is every good GM has had times they were not able to convince ownership of something they really wanted.

 

 

 

While that's true, not being able to talk a very reasonable owner (Henry is widely regarded as one of the better, more openminded owners in all of North American professional sports) and make the case from a baseball standpoint isn't the mark of a great GM.

 

The more you blame ownership for things going wrong under Cherington, the more you admit that Cherington was not up to one of the crucial aspects of a GM's job -- managing his relationship with ownership and higher execs.

 

While you can't believe everything you read, it was widely stated that ownership did not want to sign any 30 year old pitcher to a long term deal. That might have also been why Ben passed on Scherzer to sign HRam and Pablo.

 

And I just have to ask the question, why couldn't Cherington convince Henry to make an exception for a fan favorite, 2x world series champion with no known health issues, a proven record as a rock-solid and extremely durable starter, and one of the most well known and iconic pitchers of the recent Red Sox era who Red Sox fans would absolutely travel far and wide for the chance to see?

 

You can make the argument based on conventional baseball wisdom, medical infomation AND love of money. Not to mention that Jon actually got a late start to his career thanks to the cancer treatment back in 06 and has a lot less wear and tear on his arm than a conventional power lefty.

 

Why can't the most consistently effective Red Sox starter since Pedro Martinez (Sale's working on beating him here, but will need a few years to lock it down), with, again, absolutely no known health issues, get an exception to a rule that should only ever be followed in general, and evaluated on a case by case basis?

 

While I agree with that policy as a general rule, not being flexible enough to make exceptions when it makes sense does not reflect well on either ownership or the GM that can't talk them into it.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Dojji

[moonslav59]

While that's true, not being able to talk a very reasonable owner (Henry is widely regarded as one of the better, more openminded owners in all of North American professional sports) and make the case from a baseball standpoint isn't the mark of a great GM.

 

The more you blame ownership for things going wrong under Cherington, the more you admit that Cherington was not up to one of the crucial aspects of a GM's job -- managing his relationship with ownership and higher execs.

 

 

 

And I just have to ask the question, why couldn't Cherington convince Henry to make an exception for a fan favorite, 2x world series champion with no known health issues, a proven record as a rock-solid and extremely durable starter, and one of the most well known and iconic pitchers of the recent Red Sox era who Red Sox fans would absolutely travel far and wide for the chance to see?

 

You can make the argument based on conventional baseball wisdom, medical infomation AND love of money. Not to mention that Jon actually got a late start to his career thanks to the cancer treatment back in 06 and has a lot less wear and tear on his arm than a conventional power lefty.

 

Why can't the most consistently effective Red Sox starter since Pedro Martinez (Sale's working on beating him here, but will need a few years to lock it down), with, again, absolutely no known health issues, get an exception to a rule that should only ever be followed in general, and evaluated on a case by case basis?

 

While I agree with that policy as a general rule, not being flexible enough to make exceptions when it makes sense does not reflect well on either ownership or the GM that can't talk them into it.

 

Nice reply. Thanks.

 

I've never claimed Ben was flawless (not that you are saying I have).

 

He made some very bad signings and non signings. He blew the Lester negotiations with the low ball initial offer or the act of not immediately following up the low ball offer with something more substantial.

 

To me, just one change to what Ben did might have radically changed his grade: had he signed Lester (or Scherzer) instead of HRam & Pablo, his history with us would be looked at much more nicely.

 

Also, I didn't mean to sound like I was blaming Henry and top management for not allowing Ben to sign a 30+ pitcher long term. To me, Henry has to be totally blameless in anything. Without him, we have no rings.

[Bellhorn04]

One thing's for sure, DD has his hands full trying to plug the holes in the pitching staff with the limited trade chips at his disposal.

 

Are there any 'pure' salary dumps in the pitching area out there?

[notin]

One thing's for sure, DD has his hands full trying to plug the holes in the pitching staff with the limited trade chips at his disposal.

 

Are there any 'pure' salary dumps in the pitching area out there?

 

James Shields?

[S5Dewey]

James Shields?

 

Just the thought of "Big Game James" makes me shudder. And then I think of what Mick Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but....."

 

[mvp 78]

James Shields?

 

The only good thing about Shields is that he'll eat a lot of innings. Hard to throw Velazquez out there every 5th day if he can only go 2 - 3 innings, which is only compounded by the fact that he pitches back to back with ERod who simply can't get through the 6th inning.

 

Maybe they should be looking for a guy to throw in the pen that can go 2-3 innings at a time to help the overall burden? IDK.

[Kimmi]

One thing's for sure, DD has his hands full trying to plug the holes in the pitching staff with the limited trade chips at his disposal.

 

Are there any 'pure' salary dumps in the pitching area out there?

 

Unless the Sox are going over the luxury tax limit, a pure salary dump isn't going to do us any good either. Until the ERod injury, I was sure the Sox would not go over the limit. With our need for a starting pitcher, they just might do it.

[Kimmi]

James Shields?

 

Dombrowski should have listened to you and signed a couple of those dumpster dives for depth back in the offseason.

[sk7326]

The only good thing about Shields is that he'll eat a lot of innings. Hard to throw Velazquez out there every 5th day if he can only go 2 - 3 innings, which is only compounded by the fact that he pitches back to back with ERod who simply can't get through the 6th inning.

 

Maybe they should be looking for a guy to throw in the pen that can go 2-3 innings at a time to help the overall burden? IDK.

 

That is more likely ... if they have enough bullpen depth to piggyback starts when Pomeranz returns, that might be the best they could ask for. The trade market for starting pitching stinks.

[a700hitter]

Just the thought of "Big Game James" makes me shudder. And then I think of what Mick Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but....."

 

I posted a couple of days ago about James Shields. I have been following James Shields’ season. He is with a pathetic team that is horrible defensively and they play in a bandbox. He has put up a high number of quality starts, but the really notable thing about his season thus far is that he has avoided what has been his downfall throughout his career — the Home Run ball. I would think that he should be an inexpensive acquisition. If Pom and Wright continue to falter Shields would be a good alternative.

[a700hitter]

Dombrowski should have listened to you and signed a couple of those dumpster dives for depth back in the offseason.

Dumpster dives are a shot in the dark. If you start doing milultiple dumpster dives, the cost adds up. It is better to do a straight out acquisition. Shields is pitching very well this season. He has greatly reduced the Home Run ball. The rate at which he has reduced the Home Run ball indicates that more than randomness is at work.

[Hitch]

How do we afford Shields?

[a700hitter]

How do we afford Shields?

The White Sox are paying him $5 million.

[Bellhorn04]

Unless the Sox are going over the luxury tax limit, a pure salary dump isn't going to do us any good either. Until the ERod injury, I was sure the Sox would not go over the limit. With our need for a starting pitcher, they just might do it.

 

DD said the 237 'wouldn't be a deterrent' or words to that effect.

[mvp 78]

Dombrowski should have listened to you and signed a couple of those dumpster dives for depth back in the offseason.

 

The problem is that a lot of dumpster dives want MLB contracts or at least be on the roster by May. We couldn't have brought in guys like Lynn, Hellickson, etc as we wouldn't have been able to fit them on the roster early in the season.

[Kimmi]

DD said the 237 'wouldn't be a deterrent' or words to that effect.

 

Yes, I have heard that.

 

He also said that none of our players would require surgery after last season.

 

As I said, I wasn't buying it before. With the need for a starting pitcher, I think it just might happen now. Personally, I wouldn't do it. Doing so still wouldn't guarantee a ring, and it would further harm our long term outlook.

[sk7326]

I posted a couple of days ago about James Shields. I have been following James Shields’ season. He is with a pathetic team that is horrible defensively and they play in a bandbox. He has put up a high number of quality starts, but the really notable thing about his season thus far is that he has avoided what has been his downfall throughout his career — the Home Run ball. I would think that he should be an inexpensive acquisition. If Pom and Wright continue to falter Shields would be a good alternative.

 

Shields is a useful guy to soak up innings. But - as expected - between age and moving from great pitching environments to a bad one, his numbers aren't so good. Fenway is also not a great place to pitch - even if you are not giving up a lot of homeruns.

[Kimmi]

The problem is that a lot of dumpster dives want MLB contracts or at least be on the roster by May. We couldn't have brought in guys like Lynn, Hellickson, etc as we wouldn't have been able to fit them on the roster early in the season.

 

I get that, and it's a valid point. Sometimes, a player will choose to stay with a team longer than his opt out date for one reason or another. It's also possible that if we had one of those guys in AAA and they were pitching well, we would have found a way to call them up. The other thing is, you never know when you will catch lightning in a bottle.

[a700hitter]

Shields is a useful guy to soak up innings. But - as expected - between age and moving from great pitching environments to a bad one, his numbers aren't so good. Fenway is also not a great place to pitch - even if you are not giving up a lot of homeruns.

I am not saying that he is the silver bullet, but he is performing very well this year. He has always had a problem with the HR ball, but not this year. I think DD should kick the tires on him. If he can continue to avoid the HR ball, he could be very useful in the 5 spot.

[a700hitter]

I get that, and it's a valid point. Sometimes, a player will choose to stay with a team longer than his opt out date for one reason or another. It's also possible that if we had one of those guys in AAA and they were pitching well, we would have found a way to call them up. The other thing is, you never know when you will catch lightning in a bottle.

Catching lightning in a bottle is very rare which is why they call it “lightening on a bottle.”