Best Red Sox Manager---Ever?

[bosoxmal]

Yes. At least in my memory. And I go back to Joe Cronin

[illinoisredsox]

Yes. At least in my memory. And I go back to Joe Cronin

 

Before we start annointing anyone the "best" after less than 20 games, we should remember Joe Morgan started out 19-1 in 1988; Sox went 27-30 the rest of the way and got swept by the A's in the ALCS. The teams Joe managed were not nearly as talented as the current iteration, but Joe got a lot out of them (2 division titles) and uttered those immortal words "Your team is not as good as you think it is" to the upper management when they let him go. The disasters that followed under Hobson proved him correct.

 

With 2 titles, Francona is still the standard and there's a gap to second.

Edited April 19, 2018 by illinoisredsox

[moonslav59]

Before we start annointing anyone the "best" after less than 20 games, we should remember Joe Morgan started out 19-1 in 1988; Sox went 27-30 the rest of the way and got swept by the A's in the ALCS. The teams Joe managed were not nearly as talented as the current iteration, but Joe got a lot out of them (2 division titles) and uttered those immortal words "Your team is not as good as you think it is" to the upper management when they let him go. The disasters that followed under Hobson proved him correct.

 

With 2 titles, Francona is still the standard and there's a gap to second.

 

Who is second?

 

Dick Williams?

 

Hugh Duffy?

 

Joe Cronin?

 

Alex Cora?

[Fan_since_Boggs]

A related question: does anyone remember the Yankees playing this sloppy under Joe Girardi?

 

The Yankees sloppiness is quite noticeable.

 

Why get rid of Joe Girardi? He won a W.S., and did pretty well with a team that was going through some kind of rebuilding period. He was one win away form the W.S. last year. And then Cashman replaces him with a guy who never even served as a bench coach. Brilliant.

[Slasher9]

this is easy.

Francona is the greatest Red Sox manager of all time.

[illinoisredsox]

Who is second?

 

Dick Williams?

 

Hugh Duffy?

 

Joe Cronin?

 

Alex Cora?

 

Here's how I ranked them last year:

 

"1. Terry Francona (no question)

2. Joe Morgan (2 divisions with not a lot of talent, who can forget "these guys aren't as good as they think they are" after he was let go)

3. Jimy Williams (went back and forth between him and JF, in the end, the 2 last place finishes knocked Farrell down)

4. John Farrell (1 title is a big plus)

5. John McNamara (2 mediocre seasons sandwiched around what should have been the year)

6. Darrell Johnson (1 pennant and lost to the Big Red Machine, but he never should have pinch hit for Willoughby in Game 7)

7. Kevin Kennedy (1 unexpected division title)

8. Don Zimmer (would have been higher had the wild card existed, who knows what could have happened)

9. Grady Little (blew the 2003 pennant)

10. Ralph Houk (defined mediocrity)

11. Butch Hobson (ranks above the other 2 only because of the talent he had, see Joe Morgans comment above)

12. Bobby Valentine (disaster with a very good team on paper)

13. Joe Kerrigan (the fact that he only lasted about 40 games says a lot)

 

I limited my list to guys I actually could judge (I remember Dick Williams and Eddie Kasko, but I really have no basis on which to judge them, Williams caught lightning in a bottle in 67 but did little else, Kasko = Ralph Houk as near as I can tell). Guys like Pesky and Eddie Popowski, who managed but a handful of games, don't count."

 

Link to the thread where it was discussed: http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/18485-Sox-Managers

[moonslav59]

The one thing in Dick Williams' favor was that he took a low expectation team to within one game of a ring.

 

He also never had a record worse than 86-76.

[OH FOY]

72-90 the year before in 66. Back Then NO FA's, to help the Managers, BIG TIME!

Baseball, should be like Football, between eras.

Football Salary Cap ERA

Baseball- FA ERA.

I've seen teams buy a Championship. Manager means very little, if you buy the talent.

Williams Era was all Prospects, and Smart Trades. Where the Manager, really had to blend the team.

Take out Manny Ramirez, and replace him with Jose Tartabull, and see how good Francona is then.

Edited April 19, 2018 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

Injuries and Bad Luck had a lot to do with not winning before Francona.

Losing Tony C in 67

Rice in 75.

Was huge.

[mvp 78]

Joe Morgan didn’t have a lot of talent, just multiple HOFers and a few guys who should already be in (Evans and Clemens).

[Thunder]

Well, I've seen three managers in my lifetime. Cora is definitely in the top 3.

[Spudboy]

this is easy.

Francona is the greatest Red Sox manager of all time.

 

You Sir, are correct.

 

Honorable mention to Joe Morgan.

[Spudboy]

Well, I've seen three managers in my lifetime. Cora is definitely in the top 3.

 

Lol.

 

I see UCONN has enhanced your critical thinking ability!

 

J/K.

[Thunder]

Lol.

 

I see UCONN has enhanced your critical thinking ability!

 

J/K.

 

Well, I'm not wrong.

[Bellhorn04]

72-90 the year before in 66. Back Then NO FA's, to help the Managers, BIG TIME!

Baseball, should be like Football, between eras.

Football Salary Cap ERA

Baseball- FA ERA.

I've seen teams buy a Championship. Manager means very little, if you buy the talent.

Williams Era was all Prospects, and Smart Trades. Where the Manager, really had to blend the team.

Take out Manny Ramirez, and replace him with Jose Tartabull, and see how good Francona is then.

 

IMO Francona's success with Cleveland has validated that he's very good.

[bosoxmal]

Which is exactly what Cora has done. He has taken a wierd mixture of talented ball players and made them into a team. He is far more trusted than any of the other good managers the Sox have had. Everyone in baseball-land watched Betts take strike one every AB thinking 'get on base' His average dropped 50 points over night and Farrell nor any of his so-called coaches said boo. He has stuck with JBJ when a lot of people (including me) wanted him benched or traded==whatever. He has givne honest advice (and encouagement to Devers that has helped the kid keep his confidence when he heads for 3rd base. He has obviouslygiven this kid the green light when others wanted him "shorten that stroke".

 

Alex Cora doesn;'t know baseball. He knows people.

[moonslav59]

Alex Cora doesn't know baseball. He knows people.

 

He knows both.

[Hitch]

He quite clearly knows his baseball.

 

He comes across as a very intelligent fella.

[dustcover]

I'd be hard pressed to pick the 'best ever' because of the multitude of variables. But I must admit I have enormous respect for hard-driving, sharp-tongued Dick Williams as a manger, not just for what he achieved with the 67 Sox, but also for his overall success as a manager. He led teams to three American League pennants, one National League pennant, and two World Series triumphs. He is one of seven managers to win pennants in both major leagues, and joined Bill McKechnie in becoming only the second manager to lead three franchises to the Series. He and Lou Piniella are the only managers in history to lead four teams to seasons of 90 or more wins.

 

And to go a bit off topic for a minute, if you want to discuss 'worst Sox manger', hands down Pinky Higgins immediately comes to mind. Along with many other failings, he'll always be remembered as to how he brought up to the team rookie Don Buddin who the previous year had won the MVP in the minors, and mismanaged him to the point of ruining a potential brilliant career.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm high on Cora too, but agree it's way too early, especially when this particular team is, I believe, the highest paid in MLB this year.

 

The thing is, things changed after John Henry took over and did two key things: opened up the pocketbook and got good GM's (for the most part). I think there is no question Francona benefited from the John Henry era. So did Farrell for awhile. Those two won three WS after an 86 year lapse, but they had a lot of help.

 

I don't know Joe Morgan at all, but he sounds pretty darn good.

 

Cora has basically the same guys as last year except they are healthier and have added JD, and they look like a different team. Maybe he is the best, but we won't know for about six months or several years.

[fxkatt]

We don't know about Cora yet, nor do we know about Hanley or any other surprising hot starter. But if Cora has an edge over recent managers, my guess is that it's because he has the trust of the players (esp the Latino ones) and has an old-fashioned hands-on, direct way of managing. He's got energy and so do his players, because his independent spirit is given to them too. guessing of course

[illinoisredsox]

I'm high on Cora too, but agree it's way too early, especially when this particular team is, I believe, the highest paid in MLB this year.

 

The thing is, things changed after John Henry took over and did two key things: opened up the pocketbook and got good GM's (for the most part). I think there is no question Francona benefited from the John Henry era. So did Farrell for awhile. Those two won three WS after an 86 year lapse, but they had a lot of help.

 

I don't know Joe Morgan at all, but he sounds pretty darn good.

 

Cora has basically the same guys as last year except they are healthier and have added JD, and they look like a different team. Maybe he is the best, but we won't know for about six months or several years.

 

Joe was a crusty, tough nosed New Englander. Here's a pretty good write up on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Morgan_(manager)

[bosoxmal]

We don't know about Cora yet, nor do we know about Hanley or any other surprising hot starter. But if Cora has an edge over recent managers, my guess is that it's because he has the trust of the players (esp the Latino ones) and has an old-fashioned hands-on, direct way of managing. He's got energy and so do his players, because his independent spirit is given to them too. guessing of course

Yes, exactly. Andin a very short time

[jad]

I'd be hard pressed to pick the 'best ever' because of the multitude of variables. But I must admit I have enormous respect for hard-driving, sharp-tongued Dick Williams as a manger, not just for what he achieved with the 67 Sox, but also for his overall success as a manager. He led teams to three American League pennants, one National League pennant, and two World Series triumphs. He is one of seven managers to win pennants in both major leagues, and joined Bill McKechnie in becoming only the second manager to lead three franchises to the Series. He and Lou Piniella are the only managers in history to lead four teams to seasons of 90 or more wins.

 

And to go a bit off topic for a minute, if you want to discuss 'worst Sox manger', hands down Pinky Higgins immediately comes to mind. Along with many other failings, he'll always be remembered as to how he brought up to the team rookie Don Buddin who the previous year had won the MVP in the minors, and mismanaged him to the point of ruining a potential brilliant career.

 

Oh yes. But Buddin became a legend, no? Then let's not forget Billy Jurges, who replaced Higgins, did ok for half a season (with his signature move of hustling rather than walking to the mound to change pitchers), then succumbed to the reality that was the Yawkey Sox and as I recall essentially suffered a nervous breakdown in year 2.

[Maxbialystock]

Joe was a crusty, tough nosed New Englander. Here's a pretty good write up on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Morgan_(manager)

 

Thanks. A good write-up of a guy who clearly was underappreciated by the Sox. It took him forever to get to be a coach, let alone a manager in Boston even though he managed 8 years at Pawtucket. Army service in the 50's.

[moonslav59]

Joe was a crusty, tough nosed New Englander. Here's a pretty good write up on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Morgan_(manager)

 

I never had much respect for Joe.

 

I think he once formulated the line-up by asking his 5 year-old daughter who to play.

 

The team responded to the manager change, perhaps more out of glee watching McNamara walk out the door.

 

Don Zimmer had some great records for 3 or 4 years, but he played favorites way too much for my liking.

 

Bill Carrigan won 2 rings in his 3 years and the team went 91-62 in a second place finish his other year (1914-1916).

[Kimmi]

Before we start annointing anyone the "best" after less than 20 games, we should remember Joe Morgan started out 19-1 in 1988; Sox went 27-30 the rest of the way and got swept by the A's in the ALCS. The teams Joe managed were not nearly as talented as the current iteration, but Joe got a lot out of them (2 division titles) and uttered those immortal words "Your team is not as good as you think it is" to the upper management when they let him go. The disasters that followed under Hobson proved him correct.

 

With 2 titles, Francona is still the standard and there's a gap to second.

 

Well said, and I agree.

 

I love the impact that Cora seemingly has on the team, but he has a long way to go to be crowned 'Best Manager Ever'.

[Kimmi]

A related question: does anyone remember the Yankees playing this sloppy under Joe Girardi?

 

The Yankees sloppiness is quite noticeable.

 

Why get rid of Joe Girardi? He won a W.S., and did pretty well with a team that was going through some kind of rebuilding period. He was one win away form the W.S. last year. And then Cashman replaces him with a guy who never even served as a bench coach. Brilliant.

 

Aaron Boone - LOL

 

I feel so fortunate that the Sox did not sign him as our new manager.

[Kimmi]

this is easy.

Francona is the greatest Red Sox manager of all time.

 

Yup

[Kimmi]

Which is exactly what Cora has done. He has taken a wierd mixture of talented ball players and made them into a team. He is far more trusted than any of the other good managers the Sox have had. Everyone in baseball-land watched Betts take strike one every AB thinking 'get on base' His average dropped 50 points over night and Farrell nor any of his so-called coaches said boo. He has stuck with JBJ when a lot of people (including me) wanted him benched or traded==whatever. He has givne honest advice (and encouagement to Devers that has helped the kid keep his confidence when he heads for 3rd base. He has obviouslygiven this kid the green light when others wanted him "shorten that stroke".

 

Alex Cora doesn;'t know baseball. He knows people.

 

One of the things Cora mentioned early was being able to communicate to the players in such a way as to get them to buy into what he was saying. He gave a specific example yesterday of how Hanley was shocked to see he was batting 2nd in the line up. Cora explained to Hanley that he wanted Hanley to get more at bats, and that he was in a good spot between Betts and JD. Hanley seemed to buy into it.

 

I give Cora a lot of credit for how he has changed the hitting philosophy of this team so successfully in such a short period of time.

 

I think he knows baseball and people very well.