A Realistic View at 2018: Part II

[moonslav59]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you also say that Kimbrel, and Pomeranz were over pays?

 

Yes, but giving all the credit to DD for trading away Ben's prospects is not really fair.

[moonslav59]

I respect Moon but I always hate him sitting on the fence.

 

Moon

 

Which trade would you undue?

 

All but the Sale trade. (Note: I'd have traded some of the players DD ended up trading at some point.)

[moonslav59]

That would be Kopech, whose has been indirectly helping this team being good enough to help get Sale. ...

 

Ben's biggest strength was his international signings. Leaving this part of his team building out of the equation misses a lot...

 

Rafael Devers

Yoan Moncada (the biggest piece in the Sale trade)

Luis Basabe & Victor Diaz (helped get Sale)

Luis Basabe & Jose Almonte (traded for Brad Ziegler)

Anderson Espinosa (traded for Pomeranz)

Gerson Bautista (helped get Addison Reed)

Wendell Rijo (traded with a Wilkerson for Aaron Hill)

Tzu-Wei Lin

Then, there was Rusney Castillo.

 

While Margot was Theo's kid, the other 3 players in the Kimbrel trade were Ben's (Allen, Guerra & Asuaje)

 

Then, there was the Dubon, Penningtom and Shaw for Thornburg trade.

 

Basically, we don't have Sale, Devers, Kimbrel, Pom and Lin without Ben's players and prospects. We also would never have had Reed, Ziegler, Hill and others.

 

I'm fine with people bashing Ben's FA signings, and his drafts were not all that great, but at least mention his strength every now and then. We wouldn't have some key players without Ben.

 

Does that offset HRam, Pablo & Castillo?

 

I think it's a closer call than some here seem to think.

Edited May 29, 2018 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

The Sox are at the 1/3 mark of the season. We have the best record in MLB.

 

37-17 BOS (.685)

-2.0 NYY

-2.5 HOU & MIL

-3.5 SEA

-6.0 ATL

-7.0 PHI & WAS

-8.0 LAA & Cubs

-8.5 COL & STL

 

 

 

[Larry Cook]

Our core is basically home grown. Betts, benintendi, bogey, Barnes, bradley, devers, Vazquez, and other contributors.

 

I felt Ben was intent on building incredible depth in the minors to continue adding more home grown players.

 

Yet impatience waiting for guys to develop and our inability to develop home grown starters derailed everything Ben was trying to do.

 

In many ways, ben’s greatest flaw in my opinion was thinking we could wait four years for his master plan to develop.

 

Yes desperate Dave came in and shortened the timeline and made us competitive immediately, and yes, he has had some bad luck with injuries.

 

So the question is, has he done enough?

[moonslav59]

Our core is basically home grown. Betts, benintendi, bogey, Barnes, bradley, devers, Vazquez, and other contributors.

 

I felt Ben was intent on building incredible depth in the minors to continue adding more home grown players.

 

Yet impatience waiting for guys to develop and our inability to develop home grown starters derailed everything Ben was trying to do.

 

In many ways, ben’s greatest flaw in my opinion was thinking we could wait four years for his master plan to develop.

 

Yes desperate Dave came in and shortened the timeline and made us competitive immediately, and yes, he has had some bad luck with injuries.

 

So the question is, has he done enough?

 

Maybe the ring in 2013 made Ben think he had 3 years to rebuild.

[oldtimer]

That would be Kopech, whose has been indirectly helping this team being good enough to help get Sale. ...

 

Ben's biggest strength was his international signings. Leaving this part of his team building out of the equation misses a lot...

 

Rafael Devers

Yoan Moncada (the biggest piece in the Sale trade)

Luis Basabe & Victor Diaz (helped get Sale)

Luis Basabe & Jose Almonte (traded for Brad Ziegler)

Anderson Espinosa (traded for Pomeranz)

Gerson Bautista (helped get Addison Reed)

Wendell Rijo (traded with a Wilkerson for Aaron Hill)

Tzu-Wei Lin

Then, there was Rusney Castillo.

 

While Margot was Theo's kid, the other 3 players in the Kimbrel trade were Ben's (Allen, Guerra & Asuaje)

 

Then, there was the Dubon, Penningtom and Shaw for Thornburg trade.

 

Basically, we don't have Sale, Devers, Kimbrel, Pom and Lin without Ben's players and prospects. We also would never have had Reed, Ziegler, Hill and others.

 

I'm fine with people bashing Ben's FA signings, and his drafts were not all that great, but at least mention his strength every now and then. We wouldn't have some key players without Ben.

 

Does that offset HRam, Pablo & Castillo?

 

I think it's a closer call than some here seem to think.

 

Then there is the Lucchino hand in the Pablo/Hanley signings. He definitely was mentioned as the instigator in some of the Red Sox related books that I have read.

[Nick]

The Sox are at the 1/3 mark of the season. We have the best record in MLB.

 

37-17 BOS (.685)

-2.0 NYY

-2.5 HOU & MIL

-3.5 SEA

-6.0 ATL

-7.0 PHI & WAS

-8.0 LAA & Cubs

-8.5 COL & STL

 

 

 

 

Apparently DD has done somethings right. He's no Theo or Ben though.

[moonslav59]

 

Then there is the Lucchino hand in the Pablo/Hanley signings. He definitely was mentioned as the instigator in some of the Red Sox related books that I have read.

 

If it could be proven LL was behind the Pablo & HRam signings, then Ben's final grade would be way higher.

[cp176]

I think that we should just give them all A+ grades. It is what people do these days. We don't want to dampen a spirit or hurt someone's pride.

[Slasher9]

I think that we should just give them all A+ grades. It is what people do these days. We don't want to dampen a spirit or hurt someone's pride.

 

better yet if we just use all caps and put an exclamation point at the end of it 40% of the citizens of this country will think it is absolute truth.

 

RED SOX HAVE WON EVERY WORLD SERIES THIS CENTURY!

[mvp 78]

Ben's biggest strength was his international signings. Leaving this part of his team building out of the equation misses a lot...

 

This is just too funny for me. The GM that BROKE THE RULES AND GOT THE TEAM SANCTIONED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY COULDN'T MAKE INTERNATIONALS was strong at international signings.

 

Thanks Ben!

[Bellhorn04]

 

If it could be proven LL was behind the Pablo & HRam signings, then Ben's final grade would be way higher.

 

Maybe. It would also make the 'coffee boy' comments ring a little truer. If Ben was being used like that he should have said something-borrowed Theo's gorilla suit or whatever. Not just skulked away.

[moonslav59]

This is just too funny for me. The GM that BROKE THE RULES AND GOT THE TEAM SANCTIONED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY COULDN'T MAKE INTERNATIONALS was strong at international signings.

 

Thanks Ben!

 

I hate using the argument that "everyone is doing it," but it's probably true.

 

My point is, people judging Ben on FA signings and draft picks without looking at the prospects he signed as international FAs is not fair. Even with the sanctions placed on the Sox, Ben's overall international record is still an A.

[mvp 78]

I hate using the argument that "everyone is doing it," but it's probably true.

 

My point is, people judging Ben on FA signings and draft picks without looking at the prospects he signed as international FAs is not fair. Even with the sanctions placed on the Sox, Ben's overall international record is still an A.

 

No, when you include the fact that the Sox had to give up a good number of signed international prospects AND not be able to sign anyone for a year, he can't get an A. Sorry.

[Bellhorn04]

I hate using the argument that "everyone is doing it," but it's probably true.

 

My point is, people judging Ben on FA signings and draft picks without looking at the prospects he signed as international FAs is not fair. Even with the sanctions placed on the Sox, Ben's overall international record is still an A.

 

It can't really be an A with the sanctions and the $73 million tossed on Castillo. B or B+.

[a700hitter]

The guy brought in some excellent prospects, but he had a blind spot when it came to pitching. He was awful at developing pitching, trading for it or acquiring it. He had several mid-size long term free agent contracts that were total busts causing long term budget issues, and he was a cheater resulting in sanctions on the ability to sign international prospects. C+ at best.

[oldtimer]

 

If it could be proven LL was behind the Pablo & HRam signings, then Ben's final grade would be way higher.

 

If you read Terry Francona's book the Red Sox Years, and if my memory is correct, as I read the book a year or two ago, Terry implies that LL was behind the signings and pushed them because the club had gone though a low period and needed some big names to boost interest in the club. My reading is that Francona was not for the signings but was overridden. Ultimately it was one reason why he wound up cutting ties. Read the book if you get time and see what you get out of it.

[illinoisredsox]

 

If you read Terry Francona's book the Red Sox Years, and if my memory is correct, as I read the book a year or two ago, Terry implies that LL was behind the signings and pushed them because the club had gone though a low period and needed some big names to boost interest in the club. My reading is that Francona was not for the signings but was overridden. Ultimately it was one reason why he wound up cutting ties. Read the book if you get time and see what you get out of it.

 

Interesting, but how would he know? Francona’s last season was 2011 and the Sox didn’t sign Pablo and Ganley until after the 2014 season (by which time Franconia was managing the Guardians).

[Bellhorn04]

 

Interesting, but how would he know? Francona’s last season was 2011 and the Sox didn’t sign Pablo and Ganley until after the 2014 season (by which time Franconia was managing the Guardians).

 

Yes, I think Francona was talking about Crawford and maybe A-Gon.

[a700hitter]

And even if LL came out and said that he brought those deals to Ben to get done, I still lay the blame at Ben's feet. If he was a good GM, he would have been able to convince LL of the merits of his plan and assure him that he had better alternatives that he was pursuing. Good leaders lead. They are not puppets.

[moonslav59]

It can't really be an A with the sanctions and the $73 million tossed on Castillo. B or B+.

 

I'd go with B+ on international signings. Even if we did not miss a year of signings, his overall grade would still be very good.

[Spudboy]

better yet if we just use all caps and put an exclamation point at the end of it 40% of the citizens of this country will think it is absolute truth.

 

RED SOX HAVE WON EVERY WORLD SERIES THIS CENTURY!

 

Post of the day so far.

 

Lol.

[dgalehouse]

Ben's much discussed prospects were , for the most part , very heavily hyped. Perhaps somewhat over hyped. On the whole , they really have not lived up to the hype as yet. The fact that we were able to get Sale and Kimbrel , two of the best in the game , possible Hall of Famers , for them is something to be applauded , not regretted.

[moonslav59]

Ben's much discussed prospects were , for the most part , very heavily hyped. Perhaps somewhat over hyped. On the whole , they really have not lived up to the hype as yet. The fact that we were able to get Sale and Kimbrel , two of the best in the game , possible Hall of Famers , for them is something to be applauded , not regretted.

 

The jury is still out on most of those traded.

 

Margot was Theo's prospect.

 

Guerra looks like a total bust.

 

Moncada, Kopech and Espinoza could still show something special.

 

The Basabes don't look as good.

 

Some may bloom late.

[Kimmi]

Apparently DD has done somethings right. He's no Theo or Ben though.

 

!!!

[Kimmi]

If it could be proven LL was behind the Pablo & HRam signings, then Ben's final grade would be way higher.

 

It can't be proven, but those contracts, especially Pablo's, just don't follow Ben's MO.

 

Not one bit.

[Kimmi]

Here is the stat of the day:

 

Mike Axisa

13m

AL Central teams are 59-104 when not playing each other.

 

The AL Central stinks to high heaven.

[Nick]

the jury is still out on most of those traded.

 

Margot was theo's prospect.

 

Guerra looks like a total bust.

 

Moncada, kopech and espinoza could still show something special.

 

The basabes don't look as good.

 

Some may bloom late.

 

but you are missing the big picture

 

guys we have versus guys we gave up....are we as good over the last 3 years without the trades? No question we traded future for winning now.

 

Do you think sox nation would have been happy with mediocre teams on the heels of two last place finishes or three out four?

 

Let it go, moon.

 

Are you unhappy with the team we have today?

[kenmeister]

 

Are you unhappy with the team we have today?

 

Other than the Travis Shaw for Tyler Thornburg 'oops', I'm stoked for this team. I do think Rafael Devers could have used more time in the minors. But who knows Thornburg may come back and contribute.