Fire alex cora

[Bellhorn04]

they would have all had really good ERA's too. such a shame. sounds like the FO learned their lesson though as they already announced next years ST will be more "old school" approach.

 

They actually announced it?

[jacksonianmarch]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]764[/ATTACH]

 

Keep living in the past my friend.

[moonslav59]

Ben knows nothin about pitching. Maybe he will draft Aaron Cook Jr.

 

Ben drafted Buttrey. Kopech, Allen and signed IFAs G Bautista, J Almonte, D Hernandez, J Diaz, A Espinoza, D Reyes & E Bazardo.

 

While it's not a great list, Ben was the GM for as long as DD, and this list beats his (so far).

[moonslav59]

Manny and Papi must have known a few Yankees then

 

They made the mistake of drinking from the Yankee clubhouse water fountain.

[Slasher9]

Keep living in the past my friend.

 

i mean if you consider the current World Series Champions as "past" then you must by short attention span millennial....

[a700hitter]

i know you hated those years. but outside of the one where our SPers looked abysmal...on paper we were a division contending team every year. i think most of us thought we had a shot at the division (or WC at the very least) in every year Ben was GM. obviously in 3 of those years we ended up way below expectations but he did have a killer Farm in place at the end of his tenure. i can honestly say that he built that Farm without me feeling we were throwing away seasons. on paper we looked good every year. IMO.

I respect that you are not a Ben fan/supporter and the 3 last place finishes under his tenure give you the ammo. that said, i think its also fair to say that each of those years we had a MLB team that was expected to do better. and it's fair to say that when he left we had a very very good Farm.

In each of those last place years, I was very vocal about the glaring shortcomings of those teams and they finished in line with my expectations. It had nothing to do with liking or disliking Ben. I was also very vocal about the shortcomings of this years’ team and placed most of the blame on DD for not making the playoffs. It has nothing to do with like or dislike of the GM.

[Slasher9]

Manny and Papi must have known a few Yankees then

 

nice troll job jacko.

neither one was a steroid abuser while wearing the coveted Red Sox jersey. tell me more about pettite and clemens wife....

[jacksonianmarch]

i know you hated those years. but outside of the one where our SPers looked abysmal...on paper we were a division contending team every year. i think most of us thought we had a shot at the division (or WC at the very least) in every year Ben was GM. obviously in 3 of those years we ended up way below expectations but he did have a killer Farm in place at the end of his tenure. i can honestly say that he built that Farm without me feeling we were throwing away seasons. on paper we looked good every year. IMO.

I respect that you are not a Ben fan/supporter and the 3 last place finishes under his tenure give you the ammo. that said, i think its also fair to say that each of those years we had a MLB team that was expected to do better. and it's fair to say that when he left we had a very very good Farm.

 

Prior to DD, the Sox always had a good farm. Even when they dipped in the rankings due to promotions, the word was always about depth. Well, they graduated Lester but Buchholz is right behind him. Or they graduated Bogaerts but Betts and Devers are behind them. There was always a next wave. This is where DD f***ed up. He killed the next wave by dealing it away (and won a title, so it was warranted) but the wave after that never came to be due to horrible drafting/signing and development. That’s his failure. Then he overspent to prop a window open that was rapidly closing and sent the Sox into lux tax hell

[Slasher9]

In each of those last place years, I was very vocal about the glaring shortcomings of those teams and they finished in line with my expectations. It had nothing to do with liking or disliking Ben. I was also very vocal about the shortcomings of this years’ team and placed most of the blame on DD for not making the playoffs. It has nothing to do with like or dislike of the GM.

 

fair. and thats why i said "most" for those Ben years.

same for this year - most of us thought our team was strong enough to make a run at it again. you and dgale are 2 i can think of that had issues right from the start.

[a700hitter]

Ben drafted Buttrey. Kopech, Allen and signed IFAs G Bautista, J Almonte, D Hernandez, J Diaz, A Espinoza, D Reyes & E Bazardo.

 

While it's not a great list, Ben was the GM for as long as DD, and this list beats his (so far).

So far. And let’s not forget the biggest whiff of all Trey Ball. BTW, that list is very unimpressive— the best prospect is a PEF guy who has already had arm surgery. And I didn’t extol the talents of DD at drafting pitching. I am slamming Ben for knowing nothing about drafting pitching or acquiring mlb pitching talent. He was terrible at that.

[jacksonianmarch]

nice troll job jacko.

neither one was a steroid abuser while wearing the coveted Red Sox jersey. tell me more about pettite and clemens wife....

 

Manny was suspended twice and Papi failed a drug test. Keep pretending your team is clean. Keep trying. I’m only giving you facts

[moonslav59]

So far. And let’s not forget the biggest whiff of all Trey Ball. BTW, that list is very unimpressive— the best prospect is a PEF guy who has already had arm surgery. And I didn’t extol the talents of DD at drafting pitching. I am slamming Ben for knowing nothing about drafting pitching or acquiring mlb pitching talent. He was terrible at that.

 

Fine, but you only and always focus on just Ben, when Theo (post Lester), Ben and DD have all been about equal in their 4 year samples the last 12 years.

[Slasher9]

Manny was suspended twice and Papi failed a drug test. Keep pretending your team is clean. Keep trying. I’m only giving you facts

 

Manny was suspended while wearing s Red Sox jersey?

show me the test Papi failed. there isn't one. oh, are you talking about the 2003 anonymous test that the NY Times writer said Papi was on? is that really valid? and even if he was pinged it could have been for cough syrup. your right though, you werent trolling at all.

[moonslav59]

Manny was suspended twice and Papi failed a drug test. Keep pretending your team is clean. Keep trying. I’m only giving you facts

 

Manny: not with the Sox.

 

Papi: some doubt involved and never suspended.

 

Even if you count these two, the scoreboard is something like Yankees 23 Boston 2.

 

Keep pretending we're even.

[jacksonianmarch]

Manny was suspended while wearing s Red Sox jersey?

show me the test Papi failed. there isn't one. oh, are you talking about the 2003 anonymous test that the NY Times writer said Papi was on? is that really valid? and even if he was pinged it could have been for cough syrup. your right though, you werent trolling at all.

 

Excuses excuses. Cough syrup? Lol. Such a blind fanboy

[vegasbob]

It was about as close as you can come to a complete whiff, but if all you want to do is focus on one draft to try and make some round about false equivalency to DD's farm building skills, then to each his own.

 

Ben made many bad mistakes. Too many to keep his job. That draft was one of the bad things he did. Other than the IFA penalty thing, that's about the only bad thing he did with farm-building. Overall, Ben did a hell of a job building the farm to the point where DD was able to trade almost two dozen of them for Sale, Kimbrel, Pom, Thornburg, Addison Reed, Nunez, Ziegler, Aaron Hill, Kinsler, Eovaldi and Pearce.

 

 

The result of which is the Sox traded 2 dozen players and have Sale and Eovaldi as residuals for 2020. Oh yeah, and 3 AL Easts plus a record season and a WS title refresher. Oh, and DD may have ignored his staff and been unpleasant.

[moonslav59]

Excuses excuses. Cough syrup? Lol. Such a blind fanboy

 

Let's talk PED scoreboard, okay?

 

Cue crickets...

[moonslav59]

The result of which is the Sox traded 2 dozen players and have Sale and Eovaldi as residuals for 2020. Oh yeah, and 3 AL Easts plus a record season and a WS title refresher. Oh, and DD may have ignored his staff and been unpleasant.

 

Dan Duquette did the same for Theo. Every GM we've had, except DD has left an excellent farm for the next guy.

 

I'm not saying this makes DD a bad GM. I'm glad we hired him at that time, and he brought us a ring and 3 division crowns in a row, but in terms of leaving things well off for the next guy, we're looking at a mess and a half.

[Slasher9]

Excuses excuses. Cough syrup? Lol. Such a blind fanboy

 

prove to me it wasn't. people all over this country have forgotten what the word "Facts" really means.....Sad!

[a700hitter]

Fine, but you only and always focus on just Ben, when Theo (post Lester), Ben and DD have all been about equal in their 4 year samples the last 12 years.

I was very critical of DD this year and Theo didn’t escape my criticism either. I find the immediate defense of and devotion to Ben in response to my mention of his name to be amusing. That is why I still bring up that loser. And yes, you are a loser if you finish in last place in 3 of 4 years and leave the organization devoid of top pitching at all levels of the organization. I am 60 and never seen that much last place hopeless baseball. And considering that we had one of the highest payrolls while he achieved such failure, admittedly it was a unique feat. Toronto looks like a fun team to follow.

[jacksonianmarch]

Let's talk PED scoreboard, okay?

 

Cue crickets...

 

The PED scoreboard? That is really where we are going here? The two biggest reasons for your 03 and 07 title runs were proven to have failed drug tests. How many Yankee players failed drug tests? Nobody's hands are clean here. Pretending otherwise is ignorant

[jacksonianmarch]

prove to me it wasn't. people all over this country have forgotten what the word "Facts" really means.....Sad!

 

Fact: David Ortiz failed a drug test

Fact: Manny Ramirez failed two drug tests

[Slasher9]

They actually announced it?

 

not to the public.

[Slasher9]

Fact: David Ortiz failed a drug test

Fact: Manny Ramirez failed two drug tests

 

show me the test David Ortiz failed and what PeD he was using and failed for?

show me the 2 test Manny Ramirez failed while wearing a Red Sox jersey.

[jacksonianmarch]

show me the test David Ortiz failed and what PeD he was using and failed for?

show me the 2 test Manny Ramirez failed while wearing a Red Sox jersey.

 

Now I need to find out what he took when he failed a PED test? And you think Manny wasn't using in Boston? How naïve. Listen man, I don't pretend to know or care what these guys used. Everyone was using. My catcher in college made it to the bigs for a cup of coffee and he was using. He said everyone was. Pretending your team was somehow magically clean when the evidence is pretty damning they weren't is some fanboy s***. Hence why I don't care if someone wants to get an edge.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Jose Canseco made millions of dollars as a baseball player. Before he started using, he said he wasn't good enough to make the majors. Would you roid up if you could give your family the edge that Canseco did? Would you roid up if you could be the best player in baseball and win titles, etc? Most of us would do it in a heartbeat. And a lot of guys did

[moonslav59]

Now I need to find out what he took when he failed a PED test? And you think Manny wasn't using in Boston? How naïve. Listen man, I don't pretend to know or care what these guys used. Everyone was using. My catcher in college made it to the bigs for a cup of coffee and he was using. He said everyone was. Pretending your team was somehow magically clean when the evidence is pretty damning they weren't is some fanboy s***. Hence why I don't care if someone wants to get an edge.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Jose Canseco made millions of dollars as a baseball player. Before he started using, he said he wasn't good enough to make the majors. Would you roid up if you could give your family the edge that Canseco did? Would you roid up if you could be the best player in baseball and win titles, etc? Most of us would do it in a heartbeat. And a lot of guys did

 

Manny was tested while in Boston. Who knows, if he used in Boston, or not, but it's entirely possible that he began using as he aged and started getting hurt more often.

 

I'm not pretending our team was always clean- just that I know we were and are cleaner than the Yanks by a long shot is good enough for me.

[moonslav59]

The PED scoreboard? That is really where we are going here? The two biggest reasons for your 03 and 07 title runs were proven to have failed drug tests. How many Yankee players failed drug tests? Nobody's hands are clean here. Pretending otherwise is ignorant

 

You really think it's even?

 

Where did I ever say our hands are clean?

 

Cleaner but not clean.

[moonslav59]

The result of which is the Sox traded 2 dozen players and have Sale and Eovaldi as residuals for 2020. Oh yeah, and 3 AL Easts plus a record season and a WS title refresher. Oh, and DD may have ignored his staff and been unpleasant.

 

 

The other thing we have to remember is that the system was different under Dan D & Theo. Rich teams could draft "unsignable" players with the 28th pick and sign them. The IFA market was a free-for-all.

 

The comp pick system actually helped richer teams, and we mopped up with comp picks.

 

Theo's last draft saw his first 4 picks being comp picks (Barnes, Swihart, 0wens & JBJ). He later drafted Betts with the 172nd pick. In 2010, he had 4 comp picks as his first picks, also (Vitek, Brentz, Ranaudo & Workman). In 2009, with no comp picks, we got Reymond Fuentes & Alex Wilson- nothing more. His 4th to last draft, he got Casey Kelly and Derrik Gibson, but his 2 comp picks were Bryan Price & Stephen Fife. Take away the comp picks, and it look pretty bleak, except for Betts.

 

His IFA signing his last 4 years:

Tazawa, Cueves, Montas, Iggy, Bogey, Aro, Margot & Lin

 

 

[jacksonianmarch]

You really think it's even?

 

Where did I ever say our hands are clean?

 

Cleaner but not clean.

 

Cleaner than anyone is speculatory garbage and you know it. All teams were dirty and just as complacent in addressing it

[moonslav59]

Cleaner than anyone is speculatory garbage and you know it. All teams were dirty and just as complacent in addressing it

 

Stop the strawmanisms. I said cleaner than the Yanks NOT everyone.

 

That being said, I think we have been one of the cleanest, but I don't keep track of every team's PED count.